Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[doctornick]

Asking honestly - has there been park days where every single lightening lane is sold out by 1?

I haven't really followed too closely since I don't have any upcoming trips, but I am under the impression that on relatively busy days, people are having trouble getting more than 2 worthwhile LL passes in a day at some parks (Epcot because there's so few worthwhile rides anyway, DHS because they sell out due to demand, etc)

 

[James Alucobond]

I suspect Disney held back some slots for guests who didn’t plan (3?) months in advance. We did a few quick turnaround trips in October-November and I was able to get almost everything I wanted, including FOP. SSD was the exception. I understand there were problems with FP+ but I don’t think Genie+ is the answer. Others disagree and that’s fine.

The last time I booked, FOP had no availability even when I tried to reserve it within the first hour that I could three months before the beginning of my 7-day stay during a relatively slow period in February. I probably could've played the game of checking back constantly, but yeah. In my experience, things went quickly and I was routinely unable to get things I wanted in Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios. I could generally get one thing I wanted in EPCOT, but the other two were typically throwaways because of tiering.

 

[doctornick]

FastPass+ disproportionately was advantageous for on site guest, long length of stay guests AND guests who were smart enough to know about how it worked ahead of time. All of which is the heavy demographic skew of this board.

I’m not surprised people are arguing for it back, but know that you are arguing not for parity amongst guests, but something that advantaged you over others.

Of course. I loved FP+ because it worked really well with how we toured the parks (and played into my need for obsessive vacation planning). I know there are some who try to argue for "fair" systems but most people just want what benefits them the most.

And, as we've all talked about ad nauseum, capacity hasn't kept up with attendance, so we're all fighting for the same scarce resources. I think it is understandable for people to want a system that gives them access to that limited pool.

I think it was a big advantage and it’s not only a financial loss to on site guests to have to pay for it, but massive intrinsic value given up from paying on site premiums. That said, the counter measure with early park entry is actually a measurable new benefit.

And on the flip side, the evening hours for Deluxe/DVC is a massive benefit for those who get it and use it. Would be nice if it also included DHS though.

 

[doctornick]

You are confusing 'decisions' with 'planning'. Planning would constitute you laying out a strategy more than one or two steps ahead. If you are picking what to do next.. you would make a decision based on the options you have in front of you and what conditions you have now.

"I'm free, lets see what the wait times are and decide where to go next..."

You don't get to arrange Genie+ or ILL... you either take an offer, or you don't, and retry later. Your DECISION on what to do is going to be based on things like you said about proximity, etc.. but you really don't get to say "well, I'll pick peter pan now, then I'll pick Pirates and Splash together later". You aren't given that kind of control... because the system is geared towards presenting options NOW and steering behavior based on runtime conditions.

But the whole line-skip model goes in the toilet when there is none to offer you in the immediate future.

But people are planning to use Genie+ on a given day and have some expectations/hopes (and maybe a written in pencil guideline) of what they are going to get with it. And if it doesn't turn out to get what they want, they have to on the fly come up with new "plans". I think it's easy to see how that can be stressful, especially given how little control one has when passes for on demand rides go quickly.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Wouldn't a solution to that be to hold back a certain percentage of LL capacity for each ride to account for that possibility and then release that capacity at some point during the day if there are no operational issues? That's not much different than what they did with FP+ before. If they want to keep the ILL ala carte options, then keep those as they are now - 7 AM for resort guests and park opening for everyone else - so they don't have to worry about issuing too many refunds in the event a ride goes down.

With this plan, they get a more accurate gauge of crowd levels further in advance than they do now, offer a perk to resort guests, and still have some buffer available in the event of operational issues with a ride - and still keep their ILL dollars rolling in, too.

That’s still marching down the path of locking people in versus something more flexible. Planning everything out in advance was part of the problem. More than ever Disney also needs more people in queues because they have so many retail and dining venues operating at reduced capacity or closed.

I'd be surprised if anyone makes decisions about their WDW vacation with the objective of achieving parity among guests. Maybe I'm part of a pretty selfish lot, but no one ever stresses about vague notions of the common good in our planning sessions.

It’s not about what you do. The system has to work across a variety of desires and preferences. Capacity is finite. It is zero sum. If you get then others do not. You don’t have to worry but the system can’t just taylor to you.

 

[jpinkc]

Asking honestly - has there been park days where every single lightening lane is sold out by 1?

When we were there over Thanksgiving I would say yes. ROTR, Remy, and MMRR were for certain the days we were there as well as FOP but we didnt do AK on our last trip.

 

[Disstevefan1]

When we were there over Thanksgiving I would say yes. ROTR, Remy, and MMRR were for certain the days we were there as well as FOP but we didnt do AK on our last trip.

Don’t worry, if they see ILLs being sold out too quickly they will simply start selling more if them, in response to guest demand

 

[Chi84]

It’s not about what you do. The system has to work across a variety of desires and preferences.

Well of course it does! There's no question Disney is asking guests what they think of Genie+. Besides the survey, one of the resort managers asked me how things were going one morning and if I had any questions about working the system. It's up to each party to make the decisions that are best for them and then communicate them to Disney, which will make the final call.

On the other hand, I guess it's possible that Disney doesn't really care about what people think. Maybe they chose Genie+ to achieve parity among guests and ensure that the system does not unduly benefit those who stay at their resorts or have the most experience with/understanding of their parks. It's possible that the system that works best for the greatest number of people will leave everyone uncomfortably dissatisfied given the capacity issues. And that, without a doubt, will solve the capacity problem in the worst possible way.

Maybe I'm wrong and people are genuinely happy about Genie+ as a skip the line option. I don't like it, but as you say, people are different and have a variety of desires and preferences.

 

[BrianLo]

I'd be surprised if anyone makes decisions about their WDW vacation with the objective of achieving parity among guests. Maybe I'm part of a pretty selfish lot, but no one ever stresses about vague notions of the common good in our planning sessions.

Yes, I’m just trying to distill a big aspect that people are missing. It’s not just that there was a booking window priority for one FastPass, but there was a booking window priority for three of them.

I’m not actually convinced this is harder or easier to book for the average guest, it’s just that people here have lost a massive booking priority.

Somewhere In the calculus less people are using this (but maybe more than Disney expected) Minus their decision to remove two ‘good’ fastpass from every park pool.

Where did the balance go wrong? I’m obviously heavily on the side of capacity. It was always broken, but so many here are on site guests.

While this is painful, I think long term it’s a good thing. Disney is finally no longer shuffling their deck chairs so sufficiently that their most vocal fans realize how poor capacity is. The optimistic side of me hopes for internal panic and demand to add capacity. I’m an ever optimist.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well of course it does! There's no question Disney is asking guests what they think of Genie+. Besides the survey, one of the resort managers asked me how things were going one morning and if I had any questions about working the system. It's up to each party to make the decisions that are best for them and then communicate them to Disney, which will make the final call.

On the other hand, I guess it's possible that Disney doesn't really care about what people think. Maybe they chose Genie+ to achieve parity among guests and ensure that the system does not unduly benefit those who stay at their resorts or have the most experience with/understanding of their parks. It's possible that the system that works best for the greatest number of people will leave everyone uncomfortably dissatisfied given the capacity issues. And that, without a doubt, will solve the capacity problem in the worst possible way.

Maybe I'm wrong and people are genuinely happy about Genie+ as a skip the line option. I don't like it, but as you say, people are different and have a variety of desires and preferences.

Genie+ not working well doesn’t mean FastPass+ worked, or just worked a bit better. FastPass+ would be no better right now in terms of availability. Disney eventually dedicated huge chunks of ride capacity to FastPass+. Nothing stops them from shifting more capacity to Genie+ except the realization that the parks cannot handle so many people utilizing a virtual queue. Disney wanted people using FastPass to buy food and merchandise instead of queuing but those venues are strained and not operating at full capacity. Queues reworked to support FastPass are now spilling into walkways, the same walkways that would be full of FastPass+ holders with nowhere to go either because they’re in line or wondering around.

 

[gerarar]

So, ROTR is having a pretty rough day today. The ride went down for about a 1.5 hours. I stood right outside the entrance around 3:20 and when standby reopened at 4:10 they immediately put it at a 3 hour wait. I exited the ride at 6:35 pm and the standby was close to 4 hours by then.

Here's the catch, CMs immediately told us upon reopening the ride will be running at half capacity and they will be prioritizing LL's. So I was like great, an elevator broke. But the real problem was they were only running 2 out of the 4 interrogation rooms/loads. Room #2 and #7 were out of commission.

Also, they were only taking one party from standby and filling the rest with LL's for the Rey debreifing room.

LL return queue times was upwards of 1-2 hours and man people were lined up.

Pictures of LL line and switchbacks^^

I was a single rider, but I partied up with the family behind me so they can go in earlier with me into the debreif room lol.

 

[runnsally]

That's the thing I don't get. One the complaints is that on busy days people are lucky to get 2 LL a day. Yet many here are saying they were happy with 3 FP+ they pre-booked in the old days. Something doesn't add up.

The fact that some of the mid and low priority LLs never get selected in the earlier hours (few people make these their first selection) explains some of the decrease in overall inventory.

 

[GimpYancIent]

OH 'Well, FP, Genie or nothing at all it does not matter. There have been, there are and there will continue to be lines. Current management just decided to make some money falsely giving guests the impression lines and waiting would go away or be reduced. Fairly clear how management see's guests.

 

[flynnibus]

But people are planning to use Genie+ on a given day and have some expectations/hopes (and maybe a written in pencil guideline) of what they are going to get with it. And if it doesn't turn out to get what they want, they have to on the fly come up with new "plans". I think it's easy to see how that can be stressful, especially given how little control one has when passes for on demand rides go quickly.

Here's the thing... if you are trying to make plans for things you have no control over or insight into the actual outcomes (What Genie+ reservations will be available, and when, if at all) and then stress about how they keep having to change -- These are self-inflicted problems.

You should have a strategy to steer your decisions... but if you are making future plans based on Genie+ reservations, of which you have no insight into, or even know when they will be in play... you're just hurting yourself. It's like running into a wall repeatedly and complaining your head hurts - Stop doing it.

If you make plans for future outcomes that are pretty much guaranteed to not hold up... and keep doing it.. I don't know what to tell you. Don't do that. This is still people trying to make the old model apply to the new.

Have a touring strategy that helps steer your choices. Take Genie+ reservations when they are available and fit your interests and opportunities. Don't try to plan on things you can't count on.

People have been so conditioned that you gotta have all these things laid out and in a schedule they can't function without one. Just have a touring strategy, know the key milestones you want to include/hit... then enjoy the park. Adapt to what is in front of you instead of forcing a timeline on everything. You really shouldn't have but 3 or so commitments in front of you... when you think you will be hungry, when your next booked reservation is, and if there is any other timed shows/entertainment you are trying to ensure you don't miss.

People got so hooked on the idea of optimizing wait times they've conditioned themselves to believe chasing commited times everywhere is best. It's like being oncall constantly.

No wonder lesser attractions are hurting in the parks - everyone is late, they're late, for a very important date! No time to say hello goodbye I'm late I'm late I'm late!

 

[LittleBuford]

Just have a touring strategy, know the key milestones you want to include/hit...

This is planning, though. If the new system isn't allowing people to achieve their strategy and include the key milestones they want, what's its value exactly?

 

[flynnibus]

This is planning, though. If the new system isn't allowing people to achieve their strategy and include the key milestones they want, what's its value exactly?

A Strategy is a methology or insight into things to steer your choices when you must make them. Doing things like "I know I will rope drop, then probably start in TL, until my first Genie+ comes up.. " or things like "I know I will only take Genie+ for the E-tickets" are Strategies.

A plan is "I'm doing A, then we're going to B, then trying to get a G+ for SM, and after that a G+ for Splash" is a plan. Plans that no longer are viable if you are trying to work around G+ reservations YOU CAN'T PREDICT.

Notice, the strategy example I outlined can't be invalidated by not getting a reservation.. because I don't make plans on things you can't predict. Your strategy maybe to try to get a G+ reservation over using standby for something.. but if it doesn't happen, you adapt. If you freak out and think you gotta replan everything.. or come up with another scheme.. you're counting on things you can't control.

 

[Chi84]

A Strategy is a methology or insight into things to steer your choices when you must make them. Doing things like "I know I will rope drop, then probably start in TL, until my first Genie+ comes up.. " or things like "I know I will only take Genie+ for the E-tickets" are Strategies.

A plan is "I'm doing A, then we're going to B, then trying to get a G+ for SM, and after that a G+ for Splash" is a plan. Plans that no longer are viable if you are trying to work around G+ reservations YOU CAN'T PREDICT.

Notice, the strategy example I outlined can't be invalidated by not getting a reservation.. because I don't make plans on things you can't predict. Your strategy maybe to try to get a G+ reservation over using standby for something.. but if it doesn't happen, you adapt. If you freak out and think you gotta replan everything.. or come up with another scheme.. you're counting on things you can't control.

Just out of curiosity, how many people are usually in your party when you visit WDW? Your suggestions sound pretty reasonable for a solo traveler or party of two. But there are plenty of visitors with larger parties, many of them with members who depend upon schedules or find the kind of flexibility you’re describing difficult. I can’t imagine standing around with 6 adults and 3 kids trying to decide where to eat on the spur of the moment.

 

[James Alucobond]

Just out of curiosity, how many people are usually in your party when you visit WDW? Your suggestions sound pretty reasonable for a solo traveler or party of two. But there are plenty of visitors with larger parties, many of them with members who depend upon schedules or find the kind of flexibility you’re describing difficult. I can’t imagine standing around with 6 adults and 3 kids trying to decide where to eat on the spur of the moment.

Dining reservations aren't comparable because there's generally not a standby queue for restaurants. Whether we're talking about Genie or FastPass, if I don't have one, I don't just stand around nonplussed. I find a nearby ride with a reasonable wait to go on regardless of how many are in my party.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Just out of curiosity, how many people are usually in your party when you visit WDW? Your suggestions sound pretty reasonable for a solo traveler or party of two. But there are plenty of visitors with larger parties, many of them with members who depend upon schedules or find the kind of flexibility you’re describing difficult. I can’t imagine standing around with 6 adults and 3 kids trying to decide where to eat on the spur of the moment.

It is not a function of group size. The general preference across the board is for a good degree of spontaneity when visiting theme parks. Being able to wander and explore is a key aspect of how they are designed.

 

[Marriedatdisney]

We’re on day three using Genie+. Rough start but getting the hang of it. Previously heard it’s either not needed when slower or not effective when busy. Well, it’s been busy and we’ve found it useful. It ‘feels‘ like the old paper fastpass minus having to run from ride to ride to get the ticket. We also buy the mainliner ride (rise, remy, dwarf, etc). The combo let’s us mostly use lightening lane and dodge around the park.

downsides.

Cost. But honestly I just think of it as sunk costs. I’m not going to spend all this other money to get here and not spend another x for genie or lightening lane. We’re fortunate and can afford it.

commando. But it does feel like our early years. Now we’re up at 6:30 to get ready to button mash at 7. We’re at the park at rope drop to maximize use. Now this might just be us… or temporary. But suddenly paying extra for ride access makes us feel like we have to use it. Prior we would plan a morning or an afternoon. Do our three fast passes. Maybe one or two extra and be done. But sleep in a few days. this time it was go go go.

button mashing. It feels like we’re constantly watching wait times, getting ready to pick the next ride. Calculating two hours. It felt less fun.

net net. were spending more on ticket related stuff. We’re unintentionally spending less on food for some reason. We’re not buying merch because we’re ride hunting. Maybe it’ll change for us, but I give it a mixed grade. Day one I said F. Now I’d say C.