Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[JMcMahonEsq]

It's a bit disheartening to read so few posts about how to not pay for a formerly free service and so many posts on strategies to use once it is purchased. I guess Disney research really does know their customer.

This board and social media would explode if Disney raised the admission price 33% but that is exactly what happens if you buy Genie+ and two ILL per day. Even more for longer stays.

Leaving aside the silliness of discussing something that is not going to happen, how is it disheartening when it seems most people disagree with you? Is it you don't think people should have their own opinions, or is it that you think Disney should not tailor its product to the majority of its customers, but instead should just tailor it to you think?

The simple fact is that this is nothing like raising the price of admission 33%. I can gain admission to the park for the same price I could before Genie+. I can choose to purchase Genie+, or I can choose not to. Its my decision. Just like I can choose to eat at CRT, Columbia house, or bring in my own snacks. That is my decision. Disney isn't increasing the cost of my admission by making me pay to eat at CRT. If I want to eat there, I have to pay for it. Just like if I want to skip lines, I will have to pay for that. You don't like it, feel free not to utilize the service. Save your $15 bucks for Genie+ and say extra $20 bucks per day for rides. For me, I'll spend the extra money. This is the perfect system in that it lets each individual make the decision on what the "value" of Genie+ is to them personally.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Did I pay to use the stall at a specific time and find it to be out of service ?

Don't give them any ideas.

The Figment bathroom is about the only safe haven in the 47 square miles that is Disney World.

 

[WDWTrojan]

I think when the dust settles all the wait times will be the same as when we had FastPass +

The wait times when using DG+ and ILL will be the same as they were for FastPass + and the standby wait times will be the same as what they were with FastPass +

The only difference, Disney is now making money for something that was previously free.

Perhaps but I can't imagine they want that many LL users as they had with FP+. The goal is for people to buy this every day, so if they see a bad value (eg backed up return lines, etc) they won't. Additionally, they are aware FP+ had become cumbersome and had decimated SB lines, which is why they have limited this quite a bit more (no repeats, only 2 IAS per day, etc).

 

[Buried20KLeague]

It's a bit disheartening to read so few posts about how to not pay for a formerly free service and so many posts on strategies to use once it is purchased. I guess Disney research really does know their customer.

This board and social media would explode if Disney raised the admission price 33% but that is exactly what happens if you buy Genie+ and two ILL per day. Even more for longer stays.

Yep.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

RotR needs to go up to at least $100 by Christmas. $45 sounds right for moderate times of the year like right now.

You've GOT to be kidding me.

 

[matt9112]

you don’t get your money back.

I own multiple companies. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for some of you people to be my customers.

Yeah....no thanks....some super customer service vibes im picking up.

 

[matt9112]

You've GOT to be kidding me.

You own multiple companies you can afford it. Your the demo. Embrace it.

 

[matt9112]

Disney needs to move all ILL with low demand to Genie+, and move all Genie+ rides with high demand to ILL, regardless of where the rides are located, or how many ILLs there are. And charge ILLs by exactly how high the demand is. Disney is worried about hurting a park's feelings if it doesn't have enough ILL rides compared to another park, but that worry is unfounded because the parks are different anyway. Some parks have far more rides than others, nobody is judging the parks by how many ILLs they have, or how expensive the ILLs are. If the ILLs are properly assigned, both guests and Disney can get the most out of the system.

So basically 3 of the 4 parks have been amazingly underbuilt for the last 10 years? Huh wierd isnt it.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

I think it depends on the LL inventory on any given day.

If the percentage of throughput on Rise (for example) that is allocated to paying LL guests is low... No big deal.

If Disney gets greedy and makes a significant amount of that throughput paid LL... Then yes, that's a problem.

So knowing Disney... You're probably right.

What I described is what happened with FP in previous forms, and it still worked out ok. Guests really had no way of knowing how many people in a FP line were at their scheduled time vs. going later because the ride was down earlier in the day. The only people that really had a sense they were getting screwed were the standby folks.

And I ASSUME less people will be using this system than FP, simply because there's a cost to it.

I agree I think maybe less people overall all will use the LL system vs FP, as you say one was free the other has a cost, however on a ride basis, I am not sure as theoretically the LL are going to be for the rides in greatest demand, and your not spreading out the people who used FP across all rides.

The other issue from a value/purchase standpoint is I don't think it matters what % of the LL is vs total throughput of the line, but rather the effect on a window basis for the LL line allocation itself.

When this system is really working, the total allocation of LL per day should be selling out. If they are getting the dynamic pricing right, the value should be there such that all of the LL allocations are bought. So lets just say there are 80 units of LL (10 per hour, 8 hour day (9-5 for this hypo)) for number perspective. If the ride is down for 2 hours (from 10-12) , under what you were discussing as an alterative (open use for the rest of the day until close) you now have 20 additional people to fit into the remaining 50 LL units (10x5 hours left to close). If those people have open ended ability to enter the ride, all 20 of them could enter the line at 1 hour time period, taking the line which should be 10units at maximum efficiently, and making it 30 units. Your increasing your LL wait time significantly, after those people have already purchased their LL at what was a price for 10unit wait, not 30.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Yeah....no thanks....some super customer service vibes im picking up.

Clearly you don't understand the point.

I would LOVE the ability to keep every dollar customers give me for products we sell, and if a return was ever requested, give them "house credit" instead.

That house credit may never get used, meaning I get money for free, with no product given in return.

They may wait weeks or months to use that credit... Allowing me to use those dollars for other things while they're in MY pocket and not theirs.

The thing they use house credit for down the road may have a lower cost than the initial thing they purchased, meaning my profit margin increased on the dollars they gave me, plus I got to hold their dollars from the time they received the credit to the time they used it.

Literally the only downside as a business owner in this situation is if whatever they wanted to use the credit on had a higher internal cost than whatever they bought in the first place. And even that can be massaged.

So... Instead of doing all those things at the expense of my customer... When we're asked for a return on a part... We give them their money back.

Which of those two options is better customer service?

 

[Buried20KLeague]

You own multiple companies you can afford it. Your the demo. Embrace it.

I do. In the Asian parks.

And about 10 minutes ago I almost pulled the trigger on a long weekend to LA for Disneyland this weekend. But there are no park reservations available.

Guess which Disney resort I didn't even look into....

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's a bit disheartening to read so few posts about how to not pay for a formerly free service and so many posts on strategies to use once it is purchased. I guess Disney research really does know their customer.

This board and social media would explode if Disney raised the admission price 33% but that is exactly what happens if you buy Genie+ and two ILL per day. Even more for longer stays.

There would be an explosion if prices went up 33%, but it would last about a week. The usual posters would come in and tell the complainers they were being foolish and unreasonable, look at how much content WDW has added, prices are going up for everything, it’s worth that much to me, if you don’t like it don’t go, and so on and so on. Within a month the outcry would be over, almost everyone would be going to WDW as normal, and folks would just wait for the next price increase.

I mean, it’s happened. How long ago were posters on this board wondering when WDW would have the audacity to charge over $100 for a ticket? I believe it was 2017 when WDW first started charging over $100 for every park. Today tickets are usually $130 to $140. That’s 33%.

 

[Ginzuishou]

The average park guest is not going to know about Genie+ or be able to figure the whole damn thing out. I have no clue about any of it. Seems wrong that you go to a park and might not be able to get on all of the rides.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I agree I think maybe less people overall all will use the LL system vs FP, as you say one was free the other has a cost, however on a ride basis, I am not sure as theoretically the LL are going to be for the rides in greatest demand, and your not spreading out the people who used FP across all rides.

The other issue from a value/purchase standpoint is I don't think it matters what % of the LL is vs total throughput of the line, but rather the effect on a window basis for the LL line allocation itself.

When this system is really working, the total allocation of LL per day should be selling out. If they are getting the dynamic pricing right, the value should be there such that all of the LL allocations are bought. So lets just say there are 80 units of LL (10 per hour, 8 hour day (9-5 for this hypo)) for number perspective. If the ride is down for 2 hours (from 10-12) , under what you were discussing as an alterative (open use for the rest of the day until close) you now have 20 additional people to fit into the remaining 50 LL units (10x5 hours left to close). If those people have open ended ability to enter the ride, all 20 of them could enter the line at 1 hour time period, taking the line which should be 10units at maximum efficiently, and making it 30 units. Your increasing your LL wait time significantly, after those people have already purchased their LL at what was a price for 10unit wait, not 30.

I'm just not sure Disney would care. Sold LL is sold, the standby would be of no concern to them, and (again my assumption) people in the LL won't feel screwed because they're still moving toward the loading dock at a FAR faster pace than those they're passing in standby.

Part of the problem is all of these gyrations happen behind Disney's curtain of secrecy. They can do whatever they want. There's really no way any of us would EVER know why a line might be backed up a bit. Is it because of an earlier downtime and LL people stacking up? Is it they're down a person at load? Or maybe they're just moving slower? Or they had a number of wheelchair loads in a row? yadda, yadda...

I just don't know that it would be a noticable difference that guests would be able to directly tie to a cause. The ones it would be more evident to would be standby... And I don't think they care about them.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

There would be an explosion if prices went up 33%, but it would last about a week. The usual posters would come in and tell the complainers they were being foolish and unreasonable, look at how much content WDW has added, prices are going up for everything, it’s worth that much to me, if you don’t like it don’t go, and so on and so on. Within a month the outcry would be over, almost everyone would be going to WDW as normal, and folks would just wait for the next price increase.

I mean, it’s happened. How long ago were posters on this board wondering when WDW would have the audacity to charge over $100 for a ticket? I believe it was 2017 when WDW first started charging over $100 for every park. Today tickets are usually $130 to $140. That’s 33%.

Yep.

The $100 a day barrier was a BIG deal. Articles written about it everywhere. Discussed here for years leading up to it.

You can be sure Disney had dozens of meetings about that barrier. I'm sure there was a lot of hand-wringing in hallways in Anaheim.

But they pretty much breezed through it. Passing that $100 barrier so easily emboldened them to basically write their own rules. And they are.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

You've GOT to be kidding me.

Those numbers might be off a little, but seem pretty close. Especially for people who DON"T want LL to have a large effect on the ride experience.

If you want to limit the effect of LL on the standby line, you do that by decreasing the percentage of the overall ride throughput that is dedicated to LL. But you still want it to be a viable independent profit center, which means you increase its cost. That great thing about dynamic pricing is the market sets the price.

Would I pay $100 to rise RotR? Now, no, but then again I had the chance to ride it last month, am going back to WDW in December, and then going back again in July. If I hadn't gotten a boarding group in September would I have paid $100 to make sure I got on the ride...absolutely. If in December I hadn't gotten on the ride yet and I didn't know when i was going to be back to the park, would I pay $100 to guarantee a ride....shut up and take my money. Now would I do that for Guardians or Tron? No, but I not a roller coaster person. But I am sure my wife and kids would/will do so.

In addition, my brother in law, who is not a Disney person, is taking his family for their once in a lifetime trip to WDW next year. I guarantee he would spend the $100 to make sure they get on RotR, or other rides, knowing this is the only time they are going to be going to WDW, and not wanting to waste the time there in lines, or run the risk of not getting on the major rides.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The average park guest is not going to know about Genie+ or be able to figure the whole damn thing out. I have no clue about any of it. Seems wrong that you go to a park and might not be able to get on all of the rides.

Guests will get marketed to death about it though. I would imagine more marketing dollars will go into this than even the FP system... Because they'll profit from this and didn't from that.

 

[Rich Brownn]

You've GOT to be kidding me.

Its going to be some sort of dance in balancing the two things LL is supposed to do - get revenue but also pricing to discourage too many people from using it. To make it truly simple - if the cost is $20 and the line is 4 hours long AND it sells out at 1pm, that means there was more demand and people would probably pay more. If you make it $40, now the line is 2.5 hours long BUT if users are the same (or double) its even more revenue - so both objectives are filled. If it's $100 and standby is an hour, but you still sell out (presumably later that 1pm now) - everyone is happy - revenue is way up, the standby guests are happier. But its a balance. If you hit $100, too many people DON'T buy it. the standby line remains long and revenue goes down. (Sort of how those "Lexus Lanes" work on a highway).

 

[Disstevefan1]

Perhaps but I can't imagine they want that many LL users as they had with FP+. The goal is for people to buy this every day, so if they see a bad value (eg backed up return lines, etc) they won't. Additionally, they are aware FP+ had become cumbersome and had decimated SB lines, which is why they have limited this quite a bit more (no repeats, only 2 IAS per day, etc).

There are many who thought FastPass + made all wait times longer because basically every attraction was a FastPass + and they gave out so many; as a result both the FastPass + AND the standby wait times were longer.

IF they truly limit LLs then MAYBE BOTH the LL wait times AND the standby wait times will be shorter?

Lets see what happens..

 

[mikejs78]

TouringPlans is a marketing tool from Disney to help spread out crowd flow and they use Disney's officially released posted/actual wait time data

Leaving aside everything in else in your post, this comment is just flat out wrong. TouringPlans (whose founder is very transparent and is a member of these forums) is not affiliated with Disney in any way, and for you to make that assertion is slanderous to them. Frankly it damages the credibility of the rest of your argument because it's an outright lie.

It's also not true that They use Disney's actual wait time. Disney doesn't publish an actual wait time.They use their posted wait times as part of their analysis, but the actual wait time data is built up from their own ML models.

If you're going to make such an accusation, please provide the evidence that you have that supports your claim before badmouthing a company for no legitimate purpose.