Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[SamusAranX]

Nobody has, or needs to provide, that specific number. You’re trying to make your claim unfalsifiable by asking a question nobody could possibly have the answer to.

It’s been documented in court that disabled guests and their parties consume a disproportionate percentage of ride capacity. Whether that’s due to abuse or just a flawed system, it suggests that something should change. TWDC has access to a lot more data than any of us do and they’ve apparently reached the same conclusion.

You can continue to insist that everything is hunky dory, but that would just put you in, as a JC skipper would say, disbelief.

Actually, yes, you do need to provide that to prove your assertion is true. You are the one making the claim(s); burden of proof is not on the defense.

And you can continue to cite a study from TEN years ago, in a DIFFERENT system, doesn’t speak to the current one.

No denies there will always be some gaming the system, but it’s up to you if you claim it’s rampant to provide proof of said rampant misuse, not just “it makes sense”.

 

[nickys]

I think the issue would be if they denied it to people who showed up at the park and asked for an accomodation. They can utilize the service for pre-booking DAS, but they have to have a mechanism to allow people who show up to request an accommodation.

For a start international guests. Certainly people can’t register in advance from the UK so they have to go to Guest Services when they arrive. And they should have no objections to showing proof because that’s what happens here.

 

[SamusAranX]

I think the issue would be if they denied it to people who showed up at the park and asked for an accomodation. They can utilize the service for pre-booking DAS, but they have to have a mechanism to allow people who show up to request an accommodation.

And they can, but they need to provide proof. That’s where the core change should be; regardless of whether you preschedule or show up asking, there is nothing illegal asking for proof of the accommodation needed

 

[John park hopper]

For a start international guests. Certainly people can’t register in advance from the UK so they have to go to Guest Services when they arrive. And they should have no objections to showing proof because that’s what happens here.

I would think in this age of computers information can be sent to Disney in advance

 

[DisneyDodo]

Actually, yes, you do need to provide that to prove your assertion is true. You are the one making the claim(s); burned of proof is not on the defense.

And you can continue to cite a study from TEN years ago, in a DIFFERENT system.

No denies there will always be some gaming the system, but it’s up to you if you claim it’s rampant to provide proof of said rampant misuse, not just “it makes sense”.

This is not a court of law. I have no burden to prove anything. This is a public square where anyone can express their opinions freely, and others can take from it what they wish. All signs point to the current system not working. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and shout “LA LA LA” until someone produces ironclad documentation proving as much beyond reasonable doubt, you are free to do so, but don’t pretend that you are engaging in good-faith dialog on the subject.

 

[nickys]

there is nothing illegal asking for proof of the accommodation needed

I’m confused. I thought that’s exactly what the ADA prevents.

 

[SamusAranX]

This is not a court of law. I have no burden to prove anything. This is a public square where anyone can express their opinions freely, and others can take from it what they wish. All signs point to the current system not working. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and shout “LA LA LA” until someone produces ironclad documentation proving as much beyond reasonable doubt, you are free to do so, but don’t pretend that you are engaging in good-faith dialog on the subject.

Again, yes you do. You are the one saying it’s rampant and beyond what one would normally expect (every system will have “gamers”). Where is your proof that it’s more then your typical loophole users? For the CURRENT system. Again, provide the proof. Otherwise your speculation and view is the same as mine, an unproven opinion

 

[nickys]

I would think in this age of computers information can be sent to Disney in advance

They won’t do it now. And my guess is that’s because of GDPR.

Ironically it’s probably illegal under our GDPR laws for a US company or organisation to ask for that information electronically.

 

[SamusAranX]

I’m confused. I thought that’s exactly what the ADA prevents.

I could be wrong I’m not a lawyer. But like my example earlier, when I’m driving up to Walmart, I can’t just park in a handicap spot without a placard (that you have to apply to get) and scream “I don’t need proof of my disability to park here”. So it doesn’t make sense to me that the government can ask for proof to accommodate but a private party can’t?

 

[nickys]

I could be wrong I’m not a lawyer. But like my example earlier, when I’m driving up to Walmart, I can’t just park in a handicap spot without a placard (that you have to apply to get) and scream “I don’t need proof of my disability to park here”. So it doesn’t make sense to me that the government can ask for proof to accommodate but a private party can’t?

Don’t ask me, I’m from the UK.

 

[John park hopper]

I could be wrong I’m not a lawyer. But like my example earlier, when I’m driving up to Walmart, I can’t just park in a handicap spot without a placard (that you have to apply to get) and scream “I don’t need proof of my disability to park here”. So it doesn’t make sense to me that the government can ask for proof to accommodate but a private party can’t?

exactly if I don't display my placard --250 dollar fine

 

[SamusAranX]

Don’t ask me, I’m from the UK.

Jealous. Would love to live there

 

[doctornick]

I’m confused. I thought that’s exactly what the ADA prevents.

I'm no expert but I don't think the ADA has anything to do with preventing presentation of evidence of disability. The ADA is about requiring that accommodations be provided for people with disabilities. I don't think it says anything about any privacy - in fact, I think part of the expectation there is that a person needs to share what sort of limitation they have so that the company (or government entity, etc) can adequately address it.

That doesn't mean that the information needs to come in the form of an explicit note or documentation from a physician, but I don't think the ADA would say that is illegal to do (or require someone to do so to receive accommodation). I think, as an example, most places of employment will require documentation from a physician to provide an employee with specific accommodations.

And no I don't think HIPAA applies here either - a person can voluntarily share their own health information with a third party to receive accommodation if they wish.

 

[Dranth]

Actually, yes, you do need to provide that to prove your assertion is true. You are the one making the claim(s); burned of proof is not on the defense.

And you can continue to cite a study from TEN years ago, in a DIFFERENT system.

No denies there will always be some gaming the system, but it’s up to you if you claim it’s rampant to provide proof of said rampant misuse, not just “it makes sense”.

You would have a better point if we were talking about some random people making claims out of the blue. However, in this case, we have people who are known to have inside information, who have good, long track records, which are all separately confirming that this is a known problem Disney is looking to address.

So no, most of us do not have a copy of the data Disney is using to determine if there is an issue. We don't have a recording of the meeting with Bob where it was discussed. What we do have is people who talk to folks at Disney who tell them what is going on from time to time.

Given the choice between people that have proven themselves saying there is an issue vs. people who say there isn't with no history of any kind of accurate, insider information, I'll go with the known insiders. Sure, they could be wrong but in a situation where none of us normal posters has anything except our opinions and anecdotal evidence, more weight should be given to those that have a record of knowing what Disney is actually doing.

 

[doctornick]

Actually, yes, you do need to provide that to prove your assertion is true. You are the one making the claim(s); burden of proof is not on the defense.

This conversation has a lot of back and forth but I really don't understand this point. No one here "has to" prove anything. If someone wants to say that they don't believe the DAS is being abused without evidence, that's cool. But this is a discussion board about what Disney is doing in terms of running their parks, not a court of law trying to conclusively support an assertation.

More specifically, the question isn't really whether DAS is being abused. The question is whether Disney thinks it is being abused (or usage is in excess of how it is intended or expected, etc) and what they are planning to do. Insiders here have indicated that Disney feels that usage of DAS is occurring behind the scope of how it was intended and so Disney is planning to revamp the program, apparently to be rolled out along with changes to Genie+.

Disney has access to numbers far more detailed than anything we see here - and will ever be able to see here short of a lawsuit and discovery occurring - and so any decision they make is far more informed than anything suppositions we come up with here. I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, DAS use as a percentage of guests has risen sharply since the introduction of Genie+ (i.e. "paid Fastpass") to an extent that wouldn't be easily explained by simple changes in demographics. Disney has access to the data; we don't.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

. I have dinner booked why wouldnt i have a top tier ride ready to go once dinner is finished

I suspect that you’re going to get some pushback on this one. It is great for you that you have have learned how to poweruse DAS to such an extent that you get to ride the same tier 1 attraction multiple times in a day and you have it maximized so you are always doing something else (like eating dinner) while everyone else is standing in line. However, comments like this do not help advance your argument that there is no DAS abuse…

 

[Splash4eva]

I suspect that you’re going to get some pushback on this one. It is great for you that you have have learned how to poweruse DAS to such an extent that you get to ride the same tier 1 attraction multiple times in a day and you have it maximized so you are always doing something else (like eating dinner) while everyone else is standing in line. However, comments like this do not help advance your argument that there is no DAS abuse…

For starters im trying to be as transparent and honest as possible… feel if im gonna have a debate/convo about DAS going to give the full story. Next regarding what you are saying. I dont feel like thats abusing the system or power using it. Its within all guidelines Disney allows and tell me anyone who would not take advantage of that? Again it is one of the bonuses of DAS which allows you to basically get a free ride during the day… abuse is an extremely strong word especially when we are using that term regarding people who are literally lying and committing fraud to obtain it.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

For starters im trying to be as transparent and honest as possible… feel if im gonna have a debate/convo about DAS going to give the full story. Next regarding what you are saying. I dont feel like thats abusing the system or power using it. Its within all guidelines Disney allows and tell me anyone who would not take advantage of that? Again it is one of the bonuses of DAS which allows you to basically get a free ride during the day… abuse is an extremely strong word especially when we are using that term regarding people who are literally lying and committing fraud to obtain it.

There's definitely different kinds of "abuse." People lying to take advantage of the system are a huge problem and it sounds like we can both agree that constitutes "abuse." However, do you at least agree that you are likely using the system in a way that Disney didn't intend when they designed it? Can you concede that if every single DAS user used the system the way you are, then it would be responsible for a lot of the capacity problems we are seeing now?

Disney has designed a very generous system for DAS users. All the ADA requires is a "reasonable accomodation" that puts people with a disability on the same playing field as those without. They could certainly scale it back (and it sounds like they are!) without violating the ADA.

 

[DisneyDodo]

Listen ive stated how i use DAS which im sure other do the same but its not difficult to see how DAS can be used properly ie as ive said. I have dinner booked why wouldnt i have a top tier ride ready to go once dinner is finished along with a Genie+ ride as well? If thats abuse then we have different definitions of the word… want to say inthese cases its an “advantage” so be it but abuse thats a stretch. Again Disney is making these rules and we are simply abiding by them… noone cared when DAS users at the time GAC users literally needed to criss cross the park to get return times. Literally asking people who needed special needs to walk endlessly… but whatever regarding that

From a logistical perspective, it would be very hard for Disney to combat against things like this (though there are some measures they could take to mitigate it, such as blocking you from securing a return time for a ride if you have a dining reservation in the interim).

But from a theoretical perspective, this is clearly not part of the accommodations that DAS exists to provide. That doesn’t mean I fault you for using the system to your full advantage, but let’s not pretend that it doesn’t negatively impact the experiences of other guests. Somebody else is standing in a queue for a long period of time only for you and your party to walk from dinner straight onto the ride, further increasing their wait time. On a large enough scale, the effects can be major.

That’s why it behooves Disney to prevent people who don’t require accommodations from using the system at all and to limit the incidental benefits of the system for those who do require accommodations.

 

[Splash4eva]

There's definitely different kinds of "abuse." People lying to take advantage of the system are a huge problem and it sounds like we can both agree that constitutes "abuse." However, do you at least agree that you are likely using the system in a way that Disney didn't intend when they designed it? Can you concede that if every single DAS user used the system the way you are, then it would be responsible for a lot of the capacity problems we are seeing now?

Disney has designed a very generous system for DAS users. All the ADA requires is a "reasonable accomodation" that puts people with a disability on the same playing field as those without. They could certainly scale it back (and it sounds like they are!) without violating the ADA.

I agree obvious on the abuse…
Am i using it as disney designed not 100% when it comes to booking a ride during a dinner probably not. Do i feel thats causing the issue not really i feel the re rides are the biggest issue and yes i am guilty of that but how do you stop that and have a “fair” system vs non DAS guests its unfortunately impossible. It is really not difficult to get 3 DAS passes for almost any major attraction. As i have said in the past. If i choose to use my DAS that way. Listen when my daughter was younger my DAS basically never was used for any major attraction and when i did it was a solo ride. Does it balance out with guests most likely no. But to me as ive stater the re rides are the problem (which legally i dont know if you could) remove the 2 pre booking & Eli mate booking until after the ride is over. Thats a start