Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Splash4eva]

This is where I’m at.
If you’re going to make the accusation that abuse is rampant, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not just speculate.

I’m all for is requiring proof and/or Disney moving to a verification system ahead of time for ALL das users.

Exactly. Listen again. I need and use DAS. I tell them why i need it. Its up to them to say yay or nay. I would bring proof in past from my Dr. imo that should be a requirement! Not some ADA privacy bs that bars Disney or any business from requiring proof that directly impacts their day to day business Disney has done wonders as have other places to
Do the best to help people in need asking for proof im sorry should not be considered “illegal” especially for people who truly need it they should be the ones forcing proof!

 

[Jrb1979]

Listen ive stated how i use DAS which im sure other do the same but its not difficult to see how DAS can be used properly ie as ive said. I have dinner booked why wouldnt i have a top tier ride ready to go once dinner is finished along with a Genie+ ride as well? If thats abuse then we have different definitions of the word… want to say inthese cases its an “advantage” so be it but abuse thats a stretch. Again Disney is making these rules and we are simply abiding by them… noone cared when DAS users at the time GAC users literally needed to criss cross the park to get return times. Literally asking people who needed special needs to walk endlessly… but whatever regarding that

IMO that's not abuse but I do think that's something that Disney needs to fix. There is no reason that a DAS guest can ride twice as many attractions as a regular guest.

 

[Splash4eva]

Nobody has, or needs to provide, that specific number. You’re trying to make your claim unfalsifiable by asking a question nobody could possibly have the answer to.

It’s been documented in court that disabled guests and their parties consume a disproportionate percentage of ride capacity. Whether that’s due to abuse or just a flawed system, it suggests that something should change. TWDC has access to a lot more data than any of us do and they’ve apparently reached the same conclusion.

You can continue to insist that everything is hunky dory, but that would just put you in, as a JC skipper would say, disbelief.

This all started by saying DAS was being abused by people who did not need it… thats what i am debating again. Goal posts have now moved from that to the fact DAS users are taking up too many spots in line… whats next?

 

[Andrew25]

The only way to solve this is if the parks implemented a Tapu Tapu-like system, essentially making DAS obsolete outside those who need alternative access points. Everyone will have access to a virtual line, and when not currently in line or experiencing an attraction, they can do something else in the park just like current DAS users.

The problem is that, outside MK/Epcot, the parks don't have sufficient capacity to absorb people not in line.

 

[Splash4eva]

Nobody knows the actual number. What I do know is that with the increase in guests using DAS that it's having an effect on Genie+ availability.

And you may or may not know that for a fact i will
Not debate that one way or another but i will say this. My past 3 trips using Genie i had tremendous success. Sadly admit that because im not a fan & everyone else i know whi have used it as well had pretty solid success so i truly dk how to react to that

 

[Splash4eva]

IMO that's not abuse but I do think that's something that Disney needs to fix. There is no reason that a DAS guest can ride twice as many attractions as a regular guest.

Is it something that needs to be addressed i wouldnt disagree with you. But how can you prevent re rides when every guest can do the same. How can you stop people from booking both DAS and Genie if they pay for it?
A couple things imo that can be done is this. And again im a DAS user
The 2 pre booked rides need ti be eliminated. My guess Disney did this to try and alleviate the burden of staff day of to obtain DAS. Sort of an incentive to do this ahead of time
2nd thing noone has talked about which i mentioned as a ln advantage is this.
I tap in using DAS i basically immediately can book another DAS ride so depending on the ride length i can go 1 ride and by the time im done have another one waiting for me… yes i get Genie allows the same thing but this is not genie. So to me those are 2 changes that imo can cause NO uproar and still
Provide reasonable accommodation for those in need of DAS.

 

[DisneyDodo]

This all started by saying DAS was being abused by people who did not need it… thats what i am debating again. Goal posts have now moved from that to the fact DAS users are taking up too many spots in line… whats next?

The goalposts have not been moved an inch. This has been the argument all along. That’s why this discussion is taking place in the G+ thread, because the problem (or at least one of many) plaguing WDW right now is that DAS is eating too much into ride capacity, which is causing operational headaches for Disney in trying to accommodate guests using G+ and standby.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Absolutely not abuse. Unless you start limiting people from getting in the standby line for major attractions, you cannot under the ADA limit the use of DAS to only once per day. Keep in mind, that you can only have one DAS at a time, so if RotR is a 2 hour wait, then you can't get another DAS for another 2 hours.

I think it would only be abuse if the person using DAS was using that 2 hours to wait on Standby for other rides. There are certainly advantages to using DAS multiple times for a popular ride like Rise or Slinky. Any other guest wishing to ride multiple times has to physically be in the Standby line. They can't go ride Star Tours, Alien Swirling Saucers, grab lunch at Woody's Lunchbox, and then hit their return time for the ride with the 2-hour wait. I don't know how Disney can reasonably prevent that, but I think a limit on party size using DAS that is consistently enforced would help. I also don't see why they need to offer 2 pre-booked rides. That is above and beyond what is required and is having a negative impact on other guests.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Nobody knows the actual number. What I do know is that with the increase in guests using DAS that it's having an effect on Genie+ availability.

And this issue also ties into the recent issue of unauthorized tour guides using DAS. Abuse of DAS was cited as one of the reasons for the crackdown and some of the banned guides even acknowledged that they knew of other guides abusing DAS as part of their service (while all proclaiming their own innocence, of course). While nobody will have an exact number, it is undeniable that an unauthorized tour guide using his/her own DAS access to help families skip lines when they don't have or need DAS access is abusing the system.

 

[Basil of Baker Street]

I think it would only be abuse if the person using DAS was using that 2 hours to wait on Standby for other rides. There are certainly advantages to using DAS multiple times for a popular ride like Rise or Slinky. Any other guest wishing to ride multiple times has to physically be in the Standby line. They can't go ride Star Tours, Alien Swirling Saucers, grab lunch at Woody's Lunchbox, and then hit their return time for the ride with the 2-hour wait. I don't know how Disney can reasonably prevent that, but I think a limit on party size using DAS that is consistently enforced would help. I also don't see why they need to offer 2 pre-booked rides. That is above and beyond what is required and is having a negative impact on other guests.

Same. My understanding in reading this thread is the alleged abuse occurs is when DAS user get a return time for a 2 hour SB line then while waiting they will go physically stand it a 1.5 hour SB line. If that is what's happening (I have no proof!), that would in my eyes be an abuse of the system as intended.

 

[Eric Graham]

My wife was reading last night about the DAS abuse on Reddit. It seems kind of awful to me considering the many legitimate people and families who really are helped by so many deserving families of need.

 

[el_super]

I would think it’s lawful to ask for proof

Generally it is not. The law requires accommodation without proof. Most theme parks, including Disney, had previously required some form of Doctor's note indicating the need of accommodation (but not the medical diagnosis) as a way of originally getting around the ADA, until that too was challenged and removed.

Universal has been doing it that way for awhile and they have had no issues.

I spent a couple minutes googling and it looks like the current IBCCES process is in fact being challenged as of January. We will have to wait and see where that goes.

Like I said though, accommodation cannot be denied for a paperwork technicality. Universal could get around that as long as they were still allowing people accommodation at the park, even without the IBCCES card, and just not advertising that fact. As long as no one had been harmed, there is no real basis for a suit right?

Otherwise, it would be discrimination to require a multi-day process in order to obtain accommodation. Unless maybe Universal and the other parks required ALL guest to apply for and receive the card prior to entry.

 

[el_super]

Same. My understanding in reading this thread is the alleged abuse occurs is when DAS user get a return time for a 2 hour SB line then while waiting they will go physically stand it a 1.5 hour SB line. If that is what's happening (I have no proof!), that would in my eyes be an abuse of the system as intended.

That's the only real form of abuse I can imagine. But the only real way to tackle that is to enforce some kind of gating around the standby line that would impact everyone. You can't create discriminatory policies that apply to ONLY to certain classes of people.

 

[Jrb1979]

Generally it is not. The law requires accommodation without proof. Most theme parks, including Disney, had previously required some form of Doctor's note indicating the need of accommodation (but not the medical diagnosis) as a way of originally getting around the ADA, until that too was challenged and removed.




I spent a couple minutes googling and it looks like the current IBCCES process is in fact being challenged as of January. We will have to wait and see where that goes.

Like I said though, accommodation cannot be denied for a paperwork technicality. Universal could get around that as long as they were still allowing people accommodation at the park, even without the IBCCES card, and just not advertising that fact. As long as no one had been harmed, there is no real basis for a suit right?

Otherwise, it would be discrimination to require a multi-day process in order to obtain accommodation. Unless maybe Universal and the other parks required ALL guest to apply for and receive the card prior to entry.

That's what they do. You have to do all the process before arrival

 

[doctornick]

Just a point of clarification, that data and that lawsuit were related to abuse of a different system a decade ago. It’s an interesting data set, but it is not directly related to either DAS or current usage of disability services. You can draw correlations, though

Thank you for bringing that up. The previous system basically allowed for instant front of the line access which is what the lawsuit was over (since DAS changed it to getting a return time later corresponding to the wait). The way that worked, it would have been much easier to repeatedly go on a ride which otherwise has a long wait time.

 

[Basil of Baker Street]

That's the only real form of abuse I can imagine. But the only real way to tackle that is to enforce some kind of gating around the standby line that would impact everyone. You can't create discriminatory policies that apply to ONLY to certain classes of people.

Yes. And I think the solution would be a tap point in the SB line.

 

[el_super]

That's what they do. You have to do all the process before arrival

Yeah, and that seems to be the basis for the lawsuit. Reasonable accommodation means making the process as similar as it would be for any non-disabled guest not needing accommodation. Asking people to pre-screen and fill out paperwork ahead of time isn't something you ask everyone to do.

Reading around the internet it seems universal did have a process in place where one could go to guest services and get a temporarily AAP, IBCCES card or not. As long as accommodation wasn't denied on site, there would be no issue.

 

[el_super]

Yes. And I think the solution would be a tap point in the SB line.

Yep. Which generally speaking.. they already have the hardware and infrastructure to support.

 

[John park hopper]

So this appears to all stem from a flaw in the law passed by Congress (no surprise) not requiring a valid disability ID. I have a disability ID in order to receive VA care.

 

[SamusAranX]

Nobody has, or needs to provide, that specific number. You’re trying to make your claim unfalsifiable by asking a question nobody could possibly have the answer to.

It’s been documented in court that disabled guests and their parties consume a disproportionate percentage of ride capacity. Whether that’s due to abuse or just a flawed system, it suggests that something should change. TWDC has access to a lot more data than any of us do and they’ve apparently reached the same conclusion.

You can continue to insist that everything is hunky dory, but that would just put you in, as a JC skipper would say, disbelief.

Actually, yes, you do need to provide that to prove your assertion is true. You are the one making the claim(s); burden of proof is not on the defense.

And you can continue to cite a study from TEN years ago, in a DIFFERENT system, doesn’t speak to the current one.

No denies there will always be some gaming the system, but it’s up to you if you claim it’s rampant to provide proof of said rampant misuse, not just “it makes sense”.