LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim

[Ismael Flores]

Sounds like it's time for them to adopt White Castle's self-steaming no-flipping-required sliders!

Come to think of it, I'm actually kind of surprised that Disney doesn't use more innovative food preparation techniques, especially in the various Tomorrowlands, where food is typically abysmal and it could be worked into the theme. Disney's quick-service locations are shockingly slow and deal with massive volume, so why not give it a chance? It's not like the burgers could be made any worse as a result...

I'm also surprised Disney hasn't gone the Mcdonald's lazy way. All they do is grab the frozen patties and throw them in a slot and they come out the other side cooked. they do the same for the buns, meanwhile the mcdonald worker just stands there staring at the equipment do the job.

I wonder how much training it takes to open the package and make sure the bun makes it into the slit. Now that is what i call an $18.00/ hr skilled worker.

 

[flynnibus]

Bet all the cali homeowners can't wait till their gardeners cost $15-20/hr labor too...

 

[TP2000]

Way to take it to the most extreme example. I never said they were scientists or surgeons and you never made that comparison until now. It takes a lot more skill than you give them credit for. That is the point. You and others have given the impression over several pages that they are lazy and asking for a handout. They are not asking for doctor money. They are asking for enough money to not starve from a company that made $3 billion last quarter.

I have never said that CM's are lazy and asking for handouts. What I have said is that they are in entry-level unskilled jobs and I think they should make a couple of bucks above minimum wage because of the silliness they have to put up with from TDA (man do I miss Al Lutz!).

But I do NOT think an 18 year old kid flipping burgers at Tomorrowland Terrace should be making as much as the skilled mechanic maintaining the brakes on Space Mountain.

If you suddenly pay an 18 year old ride operator or burger flipper $18 an hour, then how much does the skilled mechanic maintaining Space Mountain who currently starts at $19 an hour get? Or what about the Disneyland truck driver who studied for a CDL and who starts at $18 an hour get?

And where did the union get the $18 an hour figure from? We learned earlier that the "Living Wage" in Orange County is currently $15.31 an hour. Where does $18 starting wage come from and why? Although with historically low unemployment this year and a booming economy, wages are now rising. Heck, Chick-fil-a in California is now starting at $17 an hour, and they aren't unionized.

 

[Ismael Flores]

If you want to engage in a serious discussion, maybe stop referring to cooks derisively as "burger flippers."

Can't call them chefs either, so what would be the correct terminology for a person standing in front of the grill flipping burgers?

I don't think it is demeaning in any form and no one thinks less of a person that choose to do that as a career.

I think that is what makes some of us question the idea that a person standing in front of a grill flipping burgers should be put in the same pay bracket as for example an EMT which average pay is $33,000 a year. I don't think people go to school to learn how to work in a fast food environment. those kinds of jobs were meant as a transitional point to a life career job that would be in a higher paid bracket.

Working to save a life is not the same as opening plastic wrappers and cooking burger patties.

 

[21stamps]

Can't call them chefs either, so what would be the correct terminology for a person standing in front of the grill flipping burgers?

I don't think it is demeaning in any form and no one thinks less of a person that choose to do that as a career.

I think that is what makes some of us question the idea that a person standing in front of a grill flipping burgers should be put in the same pay bracket as for example an EMT which average pay is $33,000 a year. I don't think people go to school to learn how to work in a fast food environment. those kinds of jobs were meant as a transitional point to a life career job that would be in a higher paid bracket.

Working to save a life is not the same as opening plastic wrappers and cooking burger patties.

I think it all goes back to being overly-emotional, overly-sensitive, easily-offended.

Working hard is working hard, a job title doesn’t define that... even though current society is trying to put fancy job titles on everything (see the first paragraph).
“Skilled” means you went to school/apprenticeship to learn a Specific Skill.

Neither one means that the person doesn’t work “hard” just one has certain qualifications. I honestly don’t see how that could make anyone feel offended.

 

[TP2000]

You'll probably blame that on some sort of generational laziness, rather than the far more plausible explanation of publicly-traded companies artificially holding down wages to please wealthy shareholders.

The companies pay that rate for entry-level jobs because lots of free people willingly apply for them and then remain working there for years or decades at those low wages.

There is nothing stopping the kid working at Tomorrowland Terrace this summer for $11 per hour from applying at the multiple In-N-Out locations within a few miles of Disneyland that start their new employees at $16.50 per hour. But to get the In-N-Out job that pays more you will need to be more polite, more clean cut looking and free of tats, and more efficient than the average Tomorrowland Terrace CM currently is.

There can be many reasons why an 18 year old flips burgers at Disneyland for $11 an hour instead of In-N-Out for $16.50 an hour. But qualifications and the ability to land the job is the big one.

 

[Phroobar]

Bet all the cali homeowners can't wait till their gardeners cost $15-20/hr labor too...

We'd call ICE on them first and then grab new gardeners from the Home Depot parking lot.

 

[Ismael Flores]

The fact that EMTs are underpaid doesn't justify paying anyone else below a living wage.

The "transitional job" argument goes out the window because of how many of these positions are available and how people stay in them for many, many years. You'll probably blame that on some sort of generational laziness, rather than the far more plausible explanation of publicly-traded companies artificially holding down wages to please wealthy shareholders.

And that is why they are called entry level positions if you stay that many years in an entry level position than most likely it is laziness or they just get too comfortable and decide they will do less but demand more.
I worked in fast food during the summers and I saw it first hand. People that worked there years because they could do as little as possible but as soon as they had money issues because they didn’t know how to live within their needs. You know they had to have the latest VCR and TV and whatever gadget came out.

And I just love the arguement about it always being the corporations fault for the decision of others.
Yes it’s true corporations can do better but that is why they offer positions that required different skills at different pays. While at the same time making sure they stay consistently profitable to keep those same people employed.

 

[21stamps]

While at the same time making sure they stay consistently profitable to keep those same people employed

Shhhhh. We’re never supposed to acknowledge that part.

 

[TP2000]

We'd call ICE on them first and then grab new gardeners from the Home Depot parking lot.

Or do what I do; trim my own hedges, prune my own fruit trees, and pay the 14 year old kid three houses down 20 bucks to mow my lawn twice a month. (He also unloads the bag into the compost pile for me) His mom says he spends it all on video games. Video games cost more than a quarter now? Who knew?!?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Or do what I do; trim my own hedges, prune my own fruit trees, and pay the 14 year old kid three houses down 20 bucks to mow my lawn twice a month. (He also unloads the bag into the compost pile for me) His mom says he spends it all on video games. Video games cost more than a quarter now? Who knew?!?

The free market would correct all of that...I’m told daily. @flynnibus will never have to pay $15 an hour because market demand will forbid it.

 

[21stamps]

There's no way Disney parks would be unprofitable if they raised their starting wage to $15 across the board. But the stock price would take a short-term hit and that is always a non-starter in today's short-sighted corporate environment.

The rest of your post is just the boilerplate poverty shaming. They're spending money on the latest gadget, they have no work ethic, they're lazy, blah blah blah. It's the same "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" myth we've heard a thousand times.

The motivation to work hard and hopefully advance to a better-paying position as you get older will still be there. If you pay a living wage like $15 per hour to start with, not only would Disney then attract better employees, but then their motivation wouldn't include a need to afford basic necessities of life in southern California like shelter and transportation. Most people would call that being humane. Making $30,000 per year isn't a luxurious lifestyle.

Every thread on WDW or Disney land see a comment such as yours.. what gets ignored though, is that it’s NOT just $15 starting wage. It has an impact on every wage above that. That’s reality.

Another reality is- as wages rise, so do the price of goods, including housing.

There will always be poor people.. there will always be the working poor. We can empathize with their situation, but we have to be realistic enough to admit that this will always be a part of a capitalist economy.
It’s not about emotions, just facts.

 

[Phroobar]

Too bad if we reduce wages across the board the price of goods and services doesn't follow.

 

[Ismael Flores]

There's no way Disney parks would be unprofitable if they raised their starting wage to $15 across the board. But the stock price would take a short-term hit and that is always a non-starter in today's short-sighted corporate environment.

The rest of your post is just the boilerplate poverty shaming. They're spending money on the latest gadget, they have no work ethic, they're lazy, blah blah blah. It's the same "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" myth we've heard a thousand times.

The motivation to work hard and hopefully advance to a better-paying position as you get older will still be there. If you pay a living wage like $15 per hour to start with, not only would Disney then attract better employees, but then their motivation wouldn't include a need to afford basic necessities of life in southern California like shelter and transportation. Most people would call that being humane. Making $30,000 per year isn't a luxurious lifestyle.

believe me that in no way am I poverty shaming, i came from a family that struggled and because of that we had to adjust our way of living. Decisions had to be made that would shape how we saw things and what would work for us. moved out of California to another state where our income would work for us. I worked in fastfood as needed and also worked low entry level job knowing very well that they were just to be extra source of income but not a way to sustain myself.

You are correct that 33,000 isn't a luxury lifestyle but it is also not a job position that is geared for that. You seem to be ignoring what many have said and that these jobs are entry level positions and made to be supplemental income and not meant to be the main source of income.

 

[October82]

You seem to be ignoring what many have said and that these jobs are entry level positions and made to be supplemental income and not meant to be the main source of income.

I don't think anyone is unaware that these positions should be - in a functioning economy - supplemental and not the main source of income.

What seems to be happening in this thread is that people are talking past one another. On the one hand - people are right to point out that many (though not all) of these positions are "low skill" (not "low work"). On the other hand, people are also right to point out that people who work these jobs should not be living in poverty. These are not incompatible views, and pointing out the former does not address the latter.

What is really at issue is how we can address the macroeconomic problems that lead to working people living in or near poverty. Increases to the minimum wage (or equivalent) are one policy option. There may be others.

 

[Darkbeer1]

There is a BIG difference in raisin the minimum wage across the board, such as California is doing, bumping it up to $15.

It is another to focus on a specific industry located in a specific area, and mandate SOME, but not all business pay the higher wage. Plus being mandated to not allow the amount of tips and benefits in calculating a "living wage".

 

[oo_nrb]

you seem to be ignoring what many have said and that these jobs are entry level positions and made to be supplemental income and not meant to be the main source of income.

For many people, these "entry level positions" are their only means of support. Can they get another job? Sure, if they can work around the full time hours required by the first "entry level position".

Can they find a different job with better pay? Sure, if the job exists. But there being a better-paying job for everyone who is currently in an "entry level position" pre-supposes that our economy works perfectly on a one-in-one-out method (e.g., one person retires making room for someone entering the workforce). But our economy doesn't work like that, and instead there are far too many "entry level positions", which, according to some lines of thought, aren't worth more than below a living wage.

Think of it this way. Let's say we have a team of 30 people who work at the hat store on Main Street, all in an "entry level position". A spot opens up for a lead position, and they all apply, cause everyone wants to move up and out of the entry level, right? But only one position exists. So now we have 29 people still making less than a living wage and one person making slightly more than the rest (but still not a living wage). But then! A coveted management spot opens up! So our lead applies... but so does every single other lead across the department, all jockeying for one open position. Someone else gets it, and we're back to square one.

Can't they leave if they're unhappy with the wages they're making? Well, sure. But where are they leaving to? Likely yet another "entry level position", where the whole cycle begins again. Everyone says that the Disney jobs aren't meant to be long term positions, but there simply aren't enough non-entry level positions in the world for all of these job holders to move into. Mathematically it just doesn't add up. So, what do we do with all of the rest of these employees? Continue to pay them less than a living wage while telling them to just move to other "entry-level" positions?

 

[TP2000]

For many people, these "entry level positions" are their only means of support. Can they get another job? Sure, if they can work around the full time hours required by the first "entry level position"....

So, what do we do with all of the rest of these employees? Continue to pay them less than a living wage while telling them to just move to other "entry-level" positions?

Or, they could go to a trade school and learn a skill. Plumbers, electricians, mechanics, ironworkers, welders, nurse practitioners, carpenters, aestheticians, barbers, etc., etc.

With record low unemployment of 3.9% there are currently 6.8 Million unfilled jobs in this country, because too few folks have the blue collar skills required to fill all those unfilled jobs. Here's an NPR article about a 20 year old kid in Seattle who is training to be a skilled ironworker, and who is already making $28.56 an hour while he trains. Plus he gets a pension and full benefits from the employers who are training him.

A 20 year old kid making $50,000 per year while in training to be an ironworker! He has enough money for an apartment, a fancy TV, a new Mustang, etc., and he's not even old enough yet to buy a round of beer for his buddies on Friday night. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/201...hile-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

Meanwhile, his high school friends are in a 4 year university track earning a bachelor's degree in Gender Studies or Communications or some such silly degree and racking up $100,000 in college loan debt. The kid being paid to learn a blue collar skill, and on his way to $90,000 per year by the time he is 30, is the smart one.

I wonder if that 37 year old bellhop living in his parents basement who complained at the Anaheim City Council meeting has considered using Disney's offer of education payments to go to a trade school and learn a skill? That 20 year old kid in Seattle should give him some advice.

 

[Travel Junkie]

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/01/opinion/do-we-value-low-skilled-work.html

 

[Phroobar]

Not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief. We need skilled blue collar workers too. I think everyone is scared to have those jobs because of the steel industry and others like it going belly up. Our society has been conditioned to look down on those folks because you could make so much more money as a doctor. Unfortunately, with corporate run health care, doctors can barely pay back their huge medical school debt.

However, there used to be security in getting an office job. Now white collar workers switch companies every few years. It's rare to get into a position where your stay for 10+ years and build up a pension. Tech jobs like programmers seem to be the only ones still in high demand because so few college students study computer science because "math is hard". Tech jobs keep have to outsource to other countries to fill demand where they see it as the new doctor or lawyer.

There is plenty of jobs available, people just need the right kind of education.