George Lucas on a Bench
Well-Known Member
Weigh anchor now, ya swabbies! What be I offered for this winsome wench? Stout-hearted and corn-fed she be!
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LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim
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flynnibus
Premium Member
I was an Electrical Engineer... I know what theory means or does not. I also know the difference between a predictive model and actual binding laws of interaction. And I know you keep talking in circles vs pointing to the working example... because your argument is theory on points in isolation - not a complete, proven economic system.
No one has cracked the code... and why we have centuries worth of critical thinking on the matter... and still no functioning boilerplate that works and continues to... because the market is not bound by economic theory or past behaviors. It's ultimately driven by human decisions - not past dissertations. We model patterns, controls, and influences - but it's still just predictions, not absolutes.
Now we get to sit back and see what happens to California as they advance their wages at pretty significant paces.
My crystal ball says the "I can't afford to live here..." situation doesn't change one bit in Anaheim when we look back in 5yrs. Unless something changes in the housing strategy with direct drivers... there is little incentive for developers today to aim for lower income housing.
October82
Well-Known Member
I'm glad we could have this conversation, and I wish we could talk more about some of these issues, but it really does seem like our ability to make progress on these issues in this thread is at the end. So I'll just stress, again, that the key point is that while there are things we do not know, there is plenty that we do know.
I don't see the ambiguity that you do in my comments, and I'm always happy to clarify things because it is the things we know about that should decide policy. I do think that the issues that you raise about cost of living in southern California are real, and I also know that we know enough to talk in detail about policy solutions to them. And we really have to start having that conversation, because you're right that policy changes are going to happen and we should make sure that they're the right ones.
You're clearly a passionate and intelligent person - electrical engineering is a difficult discipline - and you certainly have the mathematical background to spend time studying what mainstream economists have to say about a lot of these issues. Just to end with an offer I made earlier, I'm always happy to point others in the direction of good resources in economics. I know others on this board with similar backgrounds to my own can do so as well. So if you're interested in continuing the conversation, perhaps we can do that via PM.
The elephant in the room that no one seems to address is that some people - not all, probably just a small % - are stuck in entry level, minimum wage jobs because that IS the best they can do. They don't have what it takes to do better; they have reached as high as they can. They are incapable of learning new skills that might help them.
So I agree with you. Saying that they are at fault for being in this position is not always true. Much of what contributed to my current comfortable life is due to my own choices, but being born white, intelligent and without any health problems was not - and that is a major plus in life. I was able to overcome the other obstacles (female, poverty, average looks, no real artistic talent) because of these assets. Some people have talents that help, others are born into wealthier families. Forrest Gump was fiction, not reality.
And I expect many people to be offended that I have even voiced this opinion. But I don't find it any more offensive than voicing the opinion that people are in poverty because they don't do, well, whatever - people have posted lots of reasons and "solutions" - to improve their situation.
There is one good thing about the last few pages, while there is disagreement, there was no name calling, etc. which is too common nowadays.
Also, thank you for wrapping this up here.
Didn't even need to bring in Mom
I stopped by anyways. Thank you all for keeping the discussion civil. Even if not 100% on topic.
Including my post.
flynnibus
Premium Member
The life consequences in terms of being dealt a bad hand (accidents happen, disability situation, health issues) are certainly real and why i believe in the social net to help those in that spot. But while i believe in gcing someone off the shirt off my back if they need it... i also expect the other side to work as hard as well. Alas too many take advantage of the bueracacy or we create situations where we create the wrong incentives to drive behavior. That is frustrating (hey... there was no sign saying i HAD to work.... ).
But to your original point about someone topping out. Should that person expect the same quality of life as someone with more potential? Maybe you have to accept life with roommates... or it takes a couple's combined income to get to where you need to be. Maybe you shouldnt have 3 kids... maybe you cant have the xboxOne.
Im all for the idea of an acceptable standard of living... i just dont think "paying until we get there" is the answer. It is "spray and pray". Id much rather focus on making necessities accessible to those in need and ensuring life's building blocks are within reach.
The idea of a disease ruining generations of a family is something that i think a modern society should aim to prevent.
Curious Constance
Well-Known Member
Everyone, except maybe the very top percent, has to learn to settle into their lot in life, it's not the most comfortable thought or one that some people are even willing to accept, but reality it is none the less.
I'm fairly intelligent and have always done very well in my career. I always advance and receive promotions, and I'm married to someone who is very intelligent (much more so than I am) and he's also very good at his work. We make pretty good money, and I'd say we're middle class, comfortable. But even making more than the "average" middle class family, I still use coupons, save money where ever I can, and sometimes still have to become creative to come up with the money we need for everything we want to afford for our kids. We have to save up all year for vacation, not impulse buy the latest TVs or computers, or gadgets, and use credit wisely. We use our cars until they literally die, and when we get new cars, we always buy used and keep the car payments reasonable. We'll never be at a point where we don't have to worry about money, and that's just the way it is.
I understand that there are those in a much worse situation than I due to their genetic abilities, and I also feel there should be safe nets to protect them from homelessness, hunger etc. But I don't feel that should include someone with low intelligence and low skill living in one of the most expensive, desirable cities/states in the country who wants to be able to live in a single family home. I considered living in California for a bit years ago, but after researching and realizing our quality of life (given our abilities and what we could afford in CA) would be much less in CA than in OR, so we obviously decided to stay in OR.
I didn't move anyway and then decide because I wasn't happy with my life, that it was everyone else's fault and someone should have to pay to give me the same quality of life I could have elsewhere.
A perfect example of not being able to separate reality from feelings is something my daughter's school tries to drill into their heads. They found that if you miss just ten days or more of school per school year you are statistically less likely to graduate than someone who misses less. They are trying to convince the kids that the simple act of missing ten days of school per year will mean you won't be as likely to graduate. Okay, I'm not denying this this statistic is accurate. But do think maybe this has just a BIT to do with correlation?????
People who have crappy, low intelligent parents who don't make their kids go to school, also have crappy genes and are less intelligent. No one wants to admit this though, so they try and scare all the kids into thinking they might not graduate if they miss ten days of school. Now, my daughter who suffers from anxiety, gets worried everytime she gets sick because she thinks she's making it more likely that she won't graduate. This from a girl who is in the honor society, gets every good student award you can think of, and is very responsible. She could only go to school ten days of the year and she'd still graduate. So please stop implying casual direction by bringing this up as a behavioral injunction rather than saying what's truly going on here.
Too many people simply cannot separate feelings from reality. It doesn't feel good that some people can't achieve much because they have a ceiling that they can't reach due to their IQ. It doesn't feel good that we can't all work hard and advance at the same levels. It doesn't feel good that some people shouldn't live in certain areas because they don't have enough skill to survive and simply never will. Because it doesn't feel good, some people will erroneously try and blame anyone they can and throw all kinds of money around to try and "solve" the problems that aren't solvable. These people will also try to villainize anyone who doesn't see things the way they do. I feel bad for people in these situations, I do. But you must learn to think beyond these sympathetic feelings, and see the bigger picture and you have to stop pretending that people who do just don't care about anything but themselves. Because all the caring and money in the world just can't fix everything.
I'm fairly intelligent and have always done very well in my career. I always advance and receive promotions, and I'm married to someone who is very intelligent (much more so than I am) and he's also very good at his work. We make pretty good money, and I'd say we're middle class, comfortable. But even making more than the "average" middle class family, I still use coupons, save money where ever I can, and sometimes still have to become creative to come up with the money we need for everything we want to afford for our kids. We have to save up all year for vacation, not impulse buy the latest TVs or computers, or gadgets, and use credit wisely. We use our cars until they literally die, and when we get new cars, we always buy used and keep the car payments reasonable. We'll never be at a point where we don't have to worry about money, and that's just the way it is.
I understand that there are those in a much worse situation than I due to their genetic abilities, and I also feel there should be safe nets to protect them from homelessness, hunger etc. But I don't feel that should include someone with low intelligence and low skill living in one of the most expensive, desirable cities/states in the country who wants to be able to live in a single family home. I considered living in California for a bit years ago, but after researching and realizing our quality of life (given our abilities and what we could afford in CA) would be much less in CA than in OR, so we obviously decided to stay in OR.
I didn't move anyway and then decide because I wasn't happy with my life, that it was everyone else's fault and someone should have to pay to give me the same quality of life I could have elsewhere.
A perfect example of not being able to separate reality from feelings is something my daughter's school tries to drill into their heads. They found that if you miss just ten days or more of school per school year you are statistically less likely to graduate than someone who misses less. They are trying to convince the kids that the simple act of missing ten days of school per year will mean you won't be as likely to graduate. Okay, I'm not denying this this statistic is accurate. But do think maybe this has just a BIT to do with correlation?????
People who have crappy, low intelligent parents who don't make their kids go to school, also have crappy genes and are less intelligent. No one wants to admit this though, so they try and scare all the kids into thinking they might not graduate if they miss ten days of school. Now, my daughter who suffers from anxiety, gets worried everytime she gets sick because she thinks she's making it more likely that she won't graduate. This from a girl who is in the honor society, gets every good student award you can think of, and is very responsible. She could only go to school ten days of the year and she'd still graduate. So please stop implying casual direction by bringing this up as a behavioral injunction rather than saying what's truly going on here.
Too many people simply cannot separate feelings from reality. It doesn't feel good that some people can't achieve much because they have a ceiling that they can't reach due to their IQ. It doesn't feel good that we can't all work hard and advance at the same levels. It doesn't feel good that some people shouldn't live in certain areas because they don't have enough skill to survive and simply never will. Because it doesn't feel good, some people will erroneously try and blame anyone they can and throw all kinds of money around to try and "solve" the problems that aren't solvable. These people will also try to villainize anyone who doesn't see things the way they do. I feel bad for people in these situations, I do. But you must learn to think beyond these sympathetic feelings, and see the bigger picture and you have to stop pretending that people who do just don't care about anything but themselves. Because all the caring and money in the world just can't fix everything.
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
OK, folks, so what is a fair minimum wage? Anyone say $25 per hour, plus tips?
http://www.anaheimblog.net/2018/06/...wants-a-25-minimum-wage-in-the-anaheim-resort
>>
UNITE-HERE Local 11 is spearheading the initiative campaign to impose an $18 minimum wage on targeted Anaheim Resort businesses.
At its Leadership Conference last month, Local 11 passed five resolutions setting their 2018 agenda. One of those is a $25 an hour minimum wage:
There’s asterisk to that demand noting it applies only businesses receiving local government subsidies – that $25 minimum wage demand targets every hospitality business in the Anaheim Resort.
The upshot: anyone who thinks the militant hotel workers union plans to stop at an $18 minimum wage for luxury hotels that get a TOT rebate is dreaming. Local 11 has bigger, more long-run fish to fry: taking political control of Anaheim city government. The shift to by-district elections was the first step, since the at-large system made it very difficult for liberals council candidates to win. That, in turn, paved the way for electing their close political ally Jose F. Moreno in District 3 in 2016.
This year, it’s passing their $18 an hour minimum wage initiative, re-electing Moreno and electing Ashleigh Aitken (who is all-in with UNITE-HERE) to the mayor’s office. In 2020, the agenda will be taking District 4 and taking out Steve Faessel in District 5. The more sway UNITE-HERE Local 11 holds over the Anaheim City Council and City Hall, the more they will be emboldened use that power to demand things like a $25 minimum wage or card check neutrality be included as conditions of approval for hotel development projects – assuming
It’s not as if UNITE-HERE is surreptitious or clandestine about its goal. Politicos and business that don’t see it, don’t want to see it.
http://www.anaheimblog.net/2018/06/...wants-a-25-minimum-wage-in-the-anaheim-resort
>>
UNITE-HERE Local 11 is spearheading the initiative campaign to impose an $18 minimum wage on targeted Anaheim Resort businesses.
At its Leadership Conference last month, Local 11 passed five resolutions setting their 2018 agenda. One of those is a $25 an hour minimum wage:
There’s asterisk to that demand noting it applies only businesses receiving local government subsidies – that $25 minimum wage demand targets every hospitality business in the Anaheim Resort.
The upshot: anyone who thinks the militant hotel workers union plans to stop at an $18 minimum wage for luxury hotels that get a TOT rebate is dreaming. Local 11 has bigger, more long-run fish to fry: taking political control of Anaheim city government. The shift to by-district elections was the first step, since the at-large system made it very difficult for liberals council candidates to win. That, in turn, paved the way for electing their close political ally Jose F. Moreno in District 3 in 2016.
This year, it’s passing their $18 an hour minimum wage initiative, re-electing Moreno and electing Ashleigh Aitken (who is all-in with UNITE-HERE) to the mayor’s office. In 2020, the agenda will be taking District 4 and taking out Steve Faessel in District 5. The more sway UNITE-HERE Local 11 holds over the Anaheim City Council and City Hall, the more they will be emboldened use that power to demand things like a $25 minimum wage or card check neutrality be included as conditions of approval for hotel development projects – assuming
It’s not as if UNITE-HERE is surreptitious or clandestine about its goal. Politicos and business that don’t see it, don’t want to see it.
Disney Irish
Premium Member
Garden Grove is gonna start looking better and better to Disney...
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
I guess this is the best place to disclose that I have been nominated to be the West Anaheim committee member for the Disneyland Resort Community Panel. Basically we get to help spend the charity money TWDC wants to use in the local communities by finding suitable projects like park improvements, etc. Volunteer, so no money, but maybe perks like getting to attend the Pixar Pier Preview for free (Too bad I can't attend). Will be interviewing in July.
Disney Irish
Premium Member
Congrats. Means you'll have the ear of some in TWDC (maybe even more than you do now). Hope you get it.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Congrats David! Love seeing passionate people being selected for such activities!
Darkbeer1
Well-Known Member
But it will come with another NDA, I have enough of those currently, I think 6 active, and maybe some more next week.
Heck, I was talking to an Attorney this afternoon, and I can't even tell her all I know. Oh well, such is life.
Just got my e-mail instruction about parking at the US Capital as an invited guest. I hope the rental car company has cleaned out under the seats, etc, as it will be gone over carefully.
Picked up a prescription on Saturday, and had to even get a special label for the bottle so I can clear security. Oh well, already have lost part of my colon (Still Cancer Free!), so they have less to inspect in that regard!
Disney Irish
Premium Member
But it will come with another NDA, I have enough of those currently, I think 6 active, and maybe some more next week.
Heck, I was talking to an Attorney this afternoon, and I can't even tell her all I know. Oh well, such is life.
Just got my e-mail instruction about parking at the US Capital as an invited guest. I hope the rental car company has cleaned out under the seats, etc, as it will be gone over carefully.
Picked up a prescription on Saturday, and had to even get a special label for the bottle so I can clear security. Oh well, already have lost part of my colon (Still Cancer Free!), so they have less to inspect in that regard!
Hey NDAs aren't has ironclad as some believe, just ask our current POTUS.
And good to hear your colon is still clean. Cancer Free in 2019, keep chanting it.
D
Deleted member 107043
SuddenStorm
Well-Known Member
SSG
Well-Known Member
My two cents on CM pay: no matter what your political leanings, you should support CMs being paid more, for selfish reasons if nothing else. Money isn't everything but a decent rate of pay is a big factor in an engaged and motivated workforce. How often do we hear complaints about rude or incompetent CMs? Better pay attracts and keeps better employees. That makes our experience as guests better; who doesn't want that?
flynnibus
Premium Member
Because real leaders know that's not the 'fix' to employee problems. Sure it contributes, especially into what your talent pool to pick from may be... but more pay does not mean better or happier employees in itself. So when people think that's the 'fix'... they are just burning money.