Kurmedgeons

[wdwishes2005]

Clearly Epcot is not "Six Flags Orlando". You must be joking.

Two thrill rides that, on the thrill spectrum, are actually pretty tame does not turn Epcot into an amusement park.

It could REALLY be Six Flag Orlando if they added an in-plain-view, generic roller coaster with no theming. And multiplied that times five.

Seriosuly. Why all the lack of faith in WDI lately? Hello, they're trying. And they're succeeding. That's why Epcot is GROWING in populatiry from when it was full of dark rides. Really.

I have to agree with wannab on this one. People really need to lose the "me" factor and realize that rides are built for everyone, not the minority.

I agree with you in some aspects. Especially all the people complaining about the thrill rides. IMHO there aren't any thrill rides at WDW.....

 

[PhilharMagician]

Something that I've been noticing about myself is that, since Disney has changed so much lateyl, the legacy has been dying in my eyes. I hate to sound so negative, and don't want to offend anybody, but now, when I go to WDW, I just start to get sad. Maybe it's just because I see my childhood memories being washed away for cheap thrills. Maybe it's because I can see a vision dying. I don't know. I know that this is a board for WDW fans, and trust me, I am one, but I'm worried that I may be starting to lose it. Am I out of my mind, or does anybody else at least kind of see this?

Again, this is not meant to offend or start anger or a flame war, and I know that parks need to evolve or they will not survive, but does that mean that the original vision has to be compromised? I know that it's always been a business, and the almighty dollar is always important, but it seems to me, now, that creativity is taking a back seat to money. Am I crazy?

I will have to disagree!

Attractions are removed for 2 main reasons.
1. Low rider counts
2. Escalating repair costs due to age and wear

Disney does not remove these attractions just to make there guests angry.:hammer:

I too am sad when attractions leave to never be seen again, but times change. The whole basis as I see it of what Walt Disney did was to continueosly have the most technologically advanced and up to date attractions possible. The only way to make this happen is change. Now does change mean replacing yours or my favorite rides or shows? YES, unfortunately. In place of this attraction will be something new. Will we be able to relate to it as we have done in the past? NO. Now will we ourselves or our children be able relate the same way to this new attraction in the future? Most likely.

The one thing I look forward to doing at WDW is to go see new attractions. I love to see the new creations that the Imagineers have made for us to enjoy. I try not to think about what was once there, but enjoy it for what is there.


Finally, the all mighty dollar is important. Disney is a business and they have to make money. If they do not make money then we won't have to worry about going to WDW mad because they replaced an attraction, but it will be completely closed with no attractions.

 

[Tim G]

are we still stuck on the whole horizons thing? There was a sinkhole. it was structurally unsound. They replaced it and moved on....

Right!

Wishing everyone would...

 

[Tim G]

I will have to disagree!

Attractions are removed for 2 main reasons.
1. Low rider counts
2. Escalating repair costs due to age and wear

The main for reason for Horizons was that it was sinking into the ground...
It had to be closed and taken down....

So none of the above...

 

[AMartin767]

I guess in my comments I didn't make myself clear..I'm sorry.
What I meant, for example was that years ago, when you walked into a Frontierland gift shop, you still felt like you were in the frontier. The Castmembers had on costumes from the old days, and the stores sold things like Raccoon skin hats and rubber bowie knives, and bow and arrow sets, and old replica flint rifles. They also sold old time candys in big glass jars. There were Indian headdresses and Cowboy and Indian Toys. I also used to buy Civil war soldier statues there.
Almost none of that Time period stuff is there anymore. The candy is that powdered sugar in a straw and Jelly belly assortments hanging on a wall. They sell Disney Toasters, and Mickey Mouse Alarm clocks, cotton candy in little Disney Bags and Rice Krispy treats there now.
It's still looks great on the outside and I still love Frontierland, but my wife and I don't even bother going into the shops anymore because you can bye most of whats in the Frontierland shops right on Main street now.

Scooter, you are absolutely on the mark here. There is definitely a degridation in the charm that was part of WDW. Your example is a supreme example of the very state of things.

 

[wannab@dis]

Scooter, you are absolutely on the mark here. There is definitely a degridation in the charm that was part of WDW. Your example is a supreme example of the very state of things.

So, removing items that didn't sale very well from a shop and adding items that do sale is degredation? Seems to me that it's more about giving the guests what they want. I think I can 100% guarantee they would never remove products from a store that sold well. That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[cloudboy]

The problem is that we have to look outside our personal likes and see that Disney has to have a broad appeal.

Ah, there is the problem. Disney is becoming more and more focused on Middle American, parents and a gaggle of teens and pre-teens, who are going because of the association with their movies. Yes Disney still draws in other people as well, but their audience is skewing more and more to that middle market. So they build more rides to draw in those crowds, which skews their market even more. It's a vicious cycle for a market that is hotly contested.

Every couple of weeks there a thread about how someone cannot simply comprehend why a friend, familly member, or someone else simply thinks Disney is childish. And hundreds of posts following that say the same exact thing. Well, here's your answer. Disney is becoming less and less interesting to them.

 

[wannab@dis]

Ah, there is the problem. Disney is becoming more and more focused on Middle American, parents and a gaggle of teens and pre-teens, who are going because of the association with their movies. Yes Disney still draws in other people as well, but their audience is skewing more and more to that middle market. So they build more rides to draw in those crowds, which skews their market even more. It's a vicious cycle for a market that is hotly contested.

Every couple of weeks there a thread about how someone cannot simply comprehend why a friend, familly member, or someone else simply thinks Disney is childish. And hundreds of posts following that say the same exact thing. Well, here's your answer. Disney is becoming less and less interesting to them.

What's your point? That Disney should not attempt to appeal to a broad cross-section of guests? That's completely ludicrous.

 

[RealHawker]

Clearly Epcot is not "Six Flags Orlando". You must be joking.

Two thrill rides that, on the thrill spectrum, are actually pretty tame does not turn Epcot into an amusement park.

It could REALLY be Six Flag Orlando if they added an in-plain-view, generic roller coaster with no theming. And multiplied that times five.

Seriosuly. Why all the lack of faith in WDI lately? Hello, they're trying. And they're succeeding. That's why Epcot is GROWING in populatiry from when it was full of dark rides. Really.

I have to agree with wannab on this one. People really need to lose the "me" factor and realize that rides are built for everyone, not the minority.

Who said it was? not me.... you have the quote in your post. Clearly you were just looking for a post to jump on.

I am not showing lack of faith is Disney.

"...Horizons was the only attraction in "Future World" to showcase all of Epcot's "Future World" elements: communication, community interaction, energy, transportation, anatomy, physiology, along with man's relationship to the sea, land, air, and space."

Is it so bad we lament the passing of a attraction like Horizons? I guess I was in the "minority" as a kid.... I couldnt wait to go to epcot... But I was also a kid that read Omni and Scientific American...:

 

[RealHawker]

Long post.

"...When Walt Disney passed away, the spirit and creativity behind EPCOT left with him. What remained was the general idea of EPCOT, which was ultimately turned into a theme park based on combining education with entertainment ("edu-tainment", as it has been called). This theme park was known as EPCOT Center.
Two distinct areas were created within EPCOT Center: Future World and the World Showcase. Future World allowed guests to take entertaining trips through the history of the world. The flagship attraction, Spaceship Earth, told the tale of how our civilization came to be. Its companions, the World of Motion, Universe of Energy, Wonders of Life, The Living Seas, The Land, and the Imagination Pavilion all taught guests about different, yet equally important, aspects of our society. The final Future World attraction, Horizons, had guests looking to the future. The counterpart to Future World, the World Showcase, brought guests to countries around the world, letting them explore culture and new cuisines.
While all of these attractions at EPCOT Center sounded wonderful on paper and were amazing to see in person, the theme park quickly grew a reputation amongst children and young adults of being the "boring" part of Walt Disney World. EPCOT Center's attendance was much lower compared to the fantasy-filled Magic Kingdom.
In an effort to fix the park's negative view in the general public's eyes, EPCOT Center was renamed to Epcot in 1995. Since that time, Disney has been toying with the idea of reinventing Epcot as a more kid-friendly, thrill-oriented park. In 1999, the official changing began.
The first step in Epcot's change from a theme park in which you can learn something to yet another place to go on rides was in the closing of the World of Motion in 1996. Three years later, Test Track opened in its place, billing itself as the fastest Disney attraction, a description that one would not have expected to come out of Epcot just a few years earlier. While Test Track attempts to educate the public about what happens at a real automobile testing facility, the focus is on gags and thrills. It also featured the longest wait times in Epcot's history and instantly became the park's most popular attraction.
The Universe of Energy closed and reopened with the addition of Ellen DeGeneres and Bill Nye the Science Guy in an effort to make the show more entertaining. Fortunately, the educational parts of it remained intact.
The next step in the changing of Epcot began when Horizons closed in 1999. It was subsequently replaced by the long-rumored space-themed pavilion, finally named Mission: Space. Walt Disney Imagineering had come up with ideas for a space pavilion for decades. However, most of the ideas in their archives revolved around teaching guests about space travel. What ultimately opened to the public was a glorified thrill ride that did very little teaching at all. Even the post-show activities are nothing more than video games, with nothing to learn. The only hint of education found in Mission: Space is a 10-second clip of astronauts training in the pre-show video hosted by actor Gary Sinise.
Mission: Space, despite recent bad publicity, has been an overall success and certainly has brought attendance up at Epcot.
The next big attraction to hit Epcot opened just over a year ago, in 2005. It is Soarin', a copy of an attraction Disney had initially built for Disney's California Adventure theme park at the Disneyland Resort in Anaheim. This attraction contains no educational value other than sight-seeing over the state of California. It is currently Epcot's most-visited attraction.
Now, the Wonders of Life pavilion is closed, with no replacement in sight just yet. The Living Seas is undergoing transformation into "The Seas with Nemo and Friends" in which all previous underwater "seabase" themes are being replaced with characters from the Disney/Pixar film, Finding Nemo. It is unclear at this time whether or not any form of aquatic learning will still be there by the time Nemo and friends take up residence there.
All of the changes to Epcot over the last decade have made the park more fun for children and have certainly boosted its attendance. It is no longer viewed as the "boring" part of Walt Disney World but as another exciting Disney theme park. However, these changes have come at the expense of teaching both children and adults alike. Is it right for Disney to replace the most educational parts of their premiere vacation destination with more exciting and thrilling attractions? Some die-hard fans would say no. However, most guests seems to agree that the changes are for the better."

http://www.apepenpublishing.com/news/epcot_education.html

 

[Pongo]

Who said it was? not me.... you have the quote in your post. Clearly you were just looking for a post to jump on.

What?! :veryconfu

You said: "As long as appeal to the broad spectrum doesn't turn epcot into Six Flags Orlando...."

I was giving you reasons as to WHY it isn't becoming Six Flags Orlando. I was not looking to jump on anyone's post.

Take a chill pill.

 

[Walter]

I will have to disagree!

Attractions are removed for 2 main reasons.
1. Low rider counts
2. Escalating repair costs due to age and wear

Disney does not remove these attractions just to make there guests angry.:hammer:

That's not what I was saying at all. :brick:

Somebody else brought up a good point about Disney appealing to middle-America. I agree that Disney is doing this, but don't agree that it's a negative. Disney HAS TO do this. I understand that. They wouldn't make money otherwise. This is why I said that perhaps it has to do less with Disney and more with our society. It's all a matter of personal taste really, but it seems to me that people aren't willing to let themselves be inspired anymore. They'd think it's "lame." You can have fun, and be inspired at the same time, that's all I'm saying. I just don't see it anymore, personally. Who knows, as time goes on, maybe kids will be inspired by it, but I'm just not.

I hate to sound like an "old-foagee." I'm only 17, I'm still pretty naive, and won't claim to be above anything, but these are just what I see.

And, again, this does not just pertain to Future World, though I can see it most there.

 

[EvilQueen11]

Oh Walter... I made my first post today - - said something negative about something at MK and had my azz handed back to me with a few new holes. I've learned not to say anything negative (even the preface of "don't take offense" holds no meaning in here) about Disney or these people will attempt an e-assassination with their violent vernacular.

The magic is still there... I didn't "find" it again until I took my children for the first time and saw the wonder in their eyes. Every trip since then has been amazing.

 

[RealHawker]

What?! :veryconfu

You said: "As long as appeal to the broad spectrum doesn't turn epcot into Six Flags Orlando...."

I was giving you reasons as to WHY it isn't becoming Six Flags Orlando. I was not looking to jump on anyone's post.

Take a chill pill.

How are you confused, I told you of my hope that it doesn't turn into ,not that it was already like that.

"You must be joking..." Usually has a negative connotation when placed after a quoted line from somone else, hence my apprehension to your post. It certainly looks like you jumped on my post to me.

If you just read my previous posts in this thread, you can see my POV, and none of it says Epcot is unenjoyable or that I refuse to accept change.

 

[RealHawker]

Oh Walter... I made my first post today - - said something negative about something at MK and had my azz handed back to me with a few new holes. I've learned not to say anything negative (even the preface of "don't take offense" holds no meaning in here) about Disney or these people will attempt an e-assassination with their violent vernacular.

The magic is still there... I didn't "find" it again until I took my children for the first time and saw the wonder in their eyes. Every trip since then has been amazing.

I guess until you hit 1,000 posts you can't lament the passing of great attractions or new ones you don't like. WDW is perfect and you just gotta take it! So much for "discussion".

 

[Pongo]

Oh Walter... I made my first post today - - said something negative about something at MK and had my azz handed back to me with a few new holes. I've learned not to say anything negative (even the preface of "don't take offense" holds no meaning in here) about Disney or these people will attempt an e-assassination with their violent vernacular.

The magic is still there... I didn't "find" it again until I took my children for the first time and saw the wonder in their eyes. Every trip since then has been amazing.

Yet, somehow you are a part of "these people".

:wave:

 

[cloudboy]

What's your point? That Disney should not attempt to appeal to a broad cross-section of guests? That's completely ludicrous.

The opposite. That Disney needs to appeal to more than just that one group. Every time I go down there I find it more and more focused on the south, on families, and on the - how do I put this? - Those who need constant stimulus to stay awake. As politically incorrect as it is to say anything that is not "pro-family" these days, there are lots of single people, married without children, groups of friends, college educated, creative, social people out there, and Disney is completely missing this market. Sure Epcot did not appeal to kids and teens. But that's the whole point - it was a different offering for a different group, so EVERYONE would find something at Disney.

 

[PhilharMagician]

That's not what I was saying at all. :brick:

Somebody else brought up a good point about Disney appealing to middle-America. I agree that Disney is doing this, but don't agree that it's a negative. Disney HAS TO do this. I understand that. They wouldn't make money otherwise. This is why I said that perhaps it has to do less with Disney and more with our society. It's all a matter of personal taste really, but it seems to me that people aren't willing to let themselves be inspired anymore. They'd think it's "lame." You can have fun, and be inspired at the same time, that's all I'm saying. I just don't see it anymore, personally. Who knows, as time goes on, maybe kids will be inspired by it, but I'm just not.

I hate to sound like an "old-foagee." I'm only 17, I'm still pretty naive, and won't claim to be above anything, but these are just what I see.

And, again, this does not just pertain to Future World, though I can see it most there.

How many times can you be inspired by the same ride or show?? When an attraction has been around for 15 years I would assume most people have seen it 5, 10, 25, 50 times. IMO we have passed inspiration and now are at more nostalgia. These types of attractions do not bring us back to Disney. Attractions like EE, Soarin', LMA are what now inspire us to travel the distances to expierience. When new attractions are added you see sudden and sometime retained spikes in attendance. If not Disney probably would not spend the 10's of millions of dollars on them. Disney survives on repeat visitors like you, me and all of the other people on these boards. In order to keep us occupied and interested they offer these new experiences. I for one am happy when a new attraction is announced, but I am also sad when it replaces something I like.

In a perfect world maybe Disney could never close old attractions and just keep opening new ones, but space and money will become issues.

A good analogy is to think of COP (One attraction I hope will never leave). On COP they talk about change. Specifically change that could never happen. Well in the next scene you see progess beyond the previous vision. This attraction was created by Walt Disney himself and shows his views, visions and hopes for change.

I am impressed that at 17 you have the values to appreciate these attractions. Embrace the changes being made at Disney.


Everything has to evolve in order to survive.:wave:

 

[wannab@dis]

The opposite. That Disney needs to appeal to more than just that one group. Every time I go down there I find it more and more focused on the south, on families, and on the - how do I put this? - Those who need constant stimulus to stay awake. As politically incorrect as it is to say anything that is not "pro-family" these days, there are lots of single people, married without children, groups of friends, college educated, creative, social people out there, and Disney is completely missing this market. Sure Epcot did not appeal to kids and teens. But that's the whole point - it was a different offering for a different group, so EVERYONE would find something at Disney.

Your opinion of course... I believe they do appeal to EVERYONE. I honestly don't see where you're getting the references to the "South" or "those who need constant stimulus to stay awake." Maybe you should try that one again and leave out your personal prejudices.

I think they do a good job of appealing to the groups you mentioned. Many of my trips were with high school and later college educated friends and then I had several trips with just my wife. I've taken one magical trip with my child to WDW. It was a wonderful experience, but so were all the other trips.

Maybe you've just lost the ability to find the magic because you can't see beyond your own wants.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

Something that I've been noticing about myself is that, since Disney has changed so much lateyl, the legacy has been dying in my eyes. I hate to sound so negative, and don't want to offend anybody, but now, when I go to WDW, I just start to get sad. Maybe it's just because I see my childhood memories being washed away for cheap thrills. Maybe it's because I can see a vision dying. I don't know. I know that this is a board for WDW fans, and trust me, I am one, but I'm worried that I may be starting to lose it. Am I out of my mind, or does anybody else at least kind of see this?

Again, this is not meant to offend or start anger or a flame war, and I know that parks need to evolve or they will not survive, but does that mean that the original vision has to be compromised? I know that it's always been a business, and the almighty dollar is always important, but it seems to me, now, that creativity is taking a back seat to money. Am I crazy?

Your comments and concerns have been voiced by many here over the years, but I think your concern would best be approached by dissecting it a little and putting it into perspective.

Have the Disney parks changed and are some of the original attractions lost? Yes. Have new attractions been added, some of which are cheap or percieved as unDisneylike? Yes. But does this mean that the original vision has been lost, that Disney is now compromised by quick fix and lack of imagination? Is anything or can it be the same as you remember it when you were younger? No. Can something hold the same Wow or magic 5-10-20 years after you first experienced it? Probably not.

As has been discussed here many times, the Disney vision is to grow, to change, to adapt, and I think Disney has done that. Imagination and creativity are subjective, so while you may say that MS is no Horizons (and it is not), it is still a pretty amazing facility, story and ride environment. Do I miss World of Motion? Yes. Did I think it was a great ride? Yes. But TT is also pretty neat...and for my kids and their memory, it will be one of the best shows at Epcot.

As I'm much older than you, I've experienced more change at Disney and in general first hand. You can either make the best of the change, and make new first impressions and memories or stay stuck in the past. The funny thing about the past is that in looking back it seems so much cleaner, fresher and perfect. But when the past was the present...it wasn't quite as much fun. One example...Disney ticket books....you were limited on which rides you could go on, and then could only go on most one time...or go back and buy more tickets. I would not want to return to that time.

One more example to consider....marriage.....
Do I expect my relationship to be the same as when I first met my wife? I can hope for that, and glimpse little pieces now and again...but we've moved on, we're different, have different experience and perspective. We're definitely not in the same place now, does that make it bad? No. Yes, unfortunately we've probably lost some good thing...but there are other things that have come along that are so much better. I look fondly back at earlier times, but would I give up what I have now to return to that? Not a chance.

JMHO