Jungle Cruise Update

[FruitSaladAndApplePie]

Hans, because I've known you online for over 20 years, I'm going to be very honest with you...

We're talking about a silly amusement park. I am not getting paid for this. This is not my job, nor are you my boss. So, no, I'm not going to go "educate" myself on how evil America has been to everyone except rich white men like Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford. That homework assignment just sounds like a miserable evening.

I still enjoy your contributions here, but that's just not on my list of things I'm interested in doing at my age. I have a dinner party to plan for this weekend (And three of my seven guests are non-white! Guess who's coming to dinner?!?) and I have a spring gardening season that is rapidly approaching. Plus I waste an hour or two each day commenting here into the ether. I'm really busy here!

I will end with this. If this very clear statement from Walt Disney does not mean respect and inclusivity to you, I don't know what to tell you.

I happen to think this is a beautiful sentiment of equity and grace...

"To All Who Come To This Happy Place, Welcome!"

This is ALL coming from a Lebanese descendant k just in case you thought I was trying to be a white savior in my final reply below.

"I still enjoy your contributions here, but that's just not on my list of things I'm interested in doing at my age. I have a dinner party to plan for this weekend (And three of my seven guests are non-white! Guess who's coming to dinner?!?) and I have a spring gardening season that is rapidly approaching. Plus I waste an hour or two each day commenting here into the ether. I'm really busy here!"

You're literally stating that you are not ignorant of racial problems by saying three of your guests aren't white.


The problem is that you're not listening to the point of what people are saying. In the end, proper representation matters no matter the form it takes, even if it's two static figures on an amusement park ride. Jungle Cruise has representation, but they're stereotypical vignettes that harken to the portrayal of Africans as savages since the Industrial Revolution. (The White Man's Burden by Rudyard Kipling is a good example of this.) Representation can be butchered (since this is a Disneyland board; the auction scene is a good example.) And finally, to reply to a prior post of yours, Disneyland is not the most American thing. America is a melting pot of many cultures that form some really cool stuff. Disneyland is the best representation of the idealized "American Dream" which is fine, but not everyone agrees that Disneyland is the most American thing, and vice versa with the melting pot statement.

Just please know that you don't know what it's like to be like us. Just please try to be more accommodating and respectful. Have a good day.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

That’s some major gaslighting like don’t come here until you have the exact politics of Woke. Sorry, people are not like that.

It's obvious you have no idea how exhausting it is to have to explain and justify your feelings to white people over and over and over, even on a Disneyland discussion board. No idea. It's probably best you stick to things you understand, none of which includes me and my experiences as an African American.

 

[Californian Elitist]

This post epitomizes why a Disneyland discussion board, one with apparently only two active black people in it, is the last place to have a substantive conversation about this subject. It's not the job of black people to explain American imperialism, systemic white supremacy or racism to you. Educate yourself. Go do some research. Listen and learn why people feel they way they do about these things. Please.

They’ve made it clear they’re not interested in educating themselves, thus the cycle will continue.

@Kram Sacul Do you actually have anything useful and intelligent to add to the conversation? Or are you going to keep sarcastically laughing at people’s posts (which is not allowed, by the way)?

 

[TP2000]

As far as animatronics go, I think the most obvious place to start subbing in representation of black people is, as Hans has said, in POTC. I understand there may be squeamishness about representing black people as drunken reprobate pirates, though black people were a huge percentage of the pirate population at this time and place.

Assuming that avoidance, I seen no reason that the auctioneer couldn't be black. Sure we just see him now as one of the pirates, but with restyling, he could just as easily be a townsfolk entrepreneur working the lucrative [ahem] chicken trade (or preferably a completely reworked vignette). For that matter, New Red could have been black or Caribbean indigenous.

Oh, how fortuitous! Just as I was counting up all the animatronics and their robotic ancestry, you mentioned animatronics.

See my tally from Pirates. While it's true there are some islands in the Caribbean that have majority Black populations, it's obvious that WDI circa 1965 when the Spanish Colony route for it's take on a Caribbean port. The architecture, the villagers, the names and accents, are almost universally Spanish influenced.

Is that wrong? Would it be better if Carlos was a Black man named Charles who was tied up with rope and being dunked in the well while his Black wife shrieked from the balcony? It seems to me that would age even worse than those figures being Spanish. Or maybe Marc Davis just thought "Carlos, don't bee cheeckin'!" was a funnier line with a bad Spanish accent? Since Marc Davis is dead, only Hilaria Baldwin knows for sure on that one.

Here's that tally I made of Pirate animatronics and their robotic ancestry, from the previous page...

New Orleans Square - 45 Human Animatronics/Videos (not counting ghosts, cause who knows about skeletons?!)

• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Banjo Player - White Male
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 29 Pirates - White Males? (it's hard to tell, but let's count 'em as all white)
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Pirate - Asian Male
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Fort Conquistadors - Hispanic Males
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 2 Men Villagers - Hispanic Males
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Female Villagers - Hispanic Females
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Redhead - White Female
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Jack Sparrow - White Male Heroin Addict

Some of the townsfolk become more difficult as currently some of them are depicted as bound or otherwise subjugated which would trigger the same avoidance. But there are some that could easily be made more representative of both the black history of the Caribbean, and the real history of the Caribbean.

Sure. But you've got to make a choice. Was it a Spanish colony like Hispaniola? Was it a Dutch colony like Curacao? Or was it a primarily Black colony like Jamaica? For whatever reason, artistically or comedically, WDI chose a Spanish colony scene in 1965 when their Pirate ride got approved.

Not that there can't be Black members of the society on an island that is a Spanish Colony. But honestly, there's only 7 Animatronics representing the villagers in that ride, plus 3 Spaniard Conquistador guys defending the fort. There's not a whole lot of robots to go around for villager parts. You've got to draw the line somewhere. They went with Spaniards.

Also, as Hans said, Haunted mansion is another good candidate. Not only in the animatronics, but in installed imagery. Many mansion fans will be horrified, but there's no reason the portraits in the stretching room need to depict only whiteness. Nor the portraits in hallway. There are lots of ways Disney can increase minority representation in the parks without waiting for new IP to be created, though I appreciate the point @mickEblu made concerning that.

Sure, but then you get into kind of a pandering situation where you are pretending that grand mansions in the Antebellum South were owned and inhabited by Black people. I'm not one of those Haunted Mansion geeks, so I may be wrong, but the portraits in the grand Portrait Gallery were of previous family members who met their demise.

But then, it's just an amusement park. So if it makes the kids happy to have a Black man be killed off in some comedy way in the Portrait Gallery, then go for it.

I think it's far more important that the CM's not overpack the elevators, close the doors to the foyer properly, and say the spiel dramatically enough, but that's just me and my White Privilege talking.

Oh, and restore Rosita's ethnicity, and be proud to do it.

Another thing we agree on! That was just silly. Like they couldn't find a Latina voice actress in all of Southern California to record that for them? She's a Latina parrot. She escaped and Jose wonders where she went. It's a funny 60 year old line that needed an ending! But then they ruined it by getting some white lady from Irvine to do the recording for them. Idiots.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

I'm not one of those Haunted Mansion geeks, so I may be wrong, but the portraits in the Portrait Gallery were of previous family members who met their demise.

The Ghost Host describes them as "guests". Though Constance (who is meant to be the same widow in the Stretching Room) clearly lived in the Mansion, so who knows now?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

They’ve made it clear they’re not interested in educating themselves, thus the cycle will continue.

On the bright side it's out in the open now; there's no ambiguity left about what we're dealing with here.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Also an obvious change to make in the changing portrait gallery if you want to add diversity, would be to make Frame 1 Medusa look a bit more Greek:

 

[TP2000]

On the bright side it's out in the open now; there's no ambiguity left about what we're dealing with here.

I'm being very honest with you Hans. I hope you appreciate that.

I have never been to a dinner party, or any social event, or any gathering of friends who have known each other for decades, where we talked about racism and inequity. It's not a subject that comes up in polite society in my world, probably because my world is populated by people of multiple races as most gatherings of friends in the 21st century are. We generally nod along with thoughts that racism is bad, and it's important to judge someone by their character and not the color of their skin, etc., etc.

But sitting at a dinner party of friends talking about Racism! and how evil America is even though the story of America is basically the same story of all humanity for the past 3,000 years? No, that's never happened for me at my social events.

Do you really talk about that stuff at your dinner or cocktail parties? Do you talk about this with your white work friends at the Christmas party? And you know white peole who say "Oh yes, I'm a horrible racist and I have evil thoughts and I hate all Blacks. But my, the soup is delicious!"

Because if that's how your dinner parties go down, I'm kind of jealous for getting that much drama by the soup course!

 

[unmitigated disaster]

@Kram Sacul Do you actually have anything useful and intelligent to add to the conversation? Or are you going to keep sarcastically laughing at people’s posts (which is not allowed, by the way)?

Well, it takes intelligence to understand the discussion, so...

 

[TP2000]

Also an obvious change to make in the changing portrait gallery if you want to add diversity, would be to make Frame 1 Medusa look a bit more Greek:
View attachment 527220

Greek is now non-white? I have an old Greek friend who would beg to differ.

In his not-so-humble opinion, Greek culture led to the blossoming of all knowledge on the European continent and directly influenced the European Renaissance. Never get a Greek talking about his Greekness! It never ends.

 

[Practical Pig]

Oh, how fortuitous! Just as I was counting up all the animatronics and their robotic ancestry, you mentioned animatronics.

See my tally from Pirates. While it's true there are some islands in the Caribbean that have majority Black populations, it's obvious that WDI circa 1965 when the Spanish Colony route for it's take on a Caribbean port. The architecture, the villagers, the names and accents, are almost universally Spanish influenced.

Is that wrong? Would it be better if Carlos was a Black man named Charles who was tied up with rope and being dunked in the well while his Black wife shrieked from the balcony? It seems to me that would age even worse than those figures being Spanish. Or maybe Marc Davis just thought "Carlos, don't bee cheeckin'!" was a funnier line with a bad Spanish accent? Since Marc Davis is dead, only Hilaria Baldwin knows for sure on that one.

Here's that tally I made of Pirate animatronics and their robotic ancestry, from the previous page...

New Orleans Square - 45 Human Animatronics/Videos (not counting ghosts, cause who knows about skeletons?!)

• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Banjo Player - White Male
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 29 Pirates - White Males? (it's hard to tell, but let's count 'em as all white)
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Pirate - Asian Male
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Fort Conquistadors - Hispanic Males
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 2 Men Villagers - Hispanic Males
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Female Villagers - Hispanic Females
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Redhead - White Female
• Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Jack Sparrow - White Male Heroin Addict

Sure. But you've got to make a choice. Was it a Spanish colony like Hispaniola? Was it a Dutch colony like Curacao? Or was it a primarily Black colony like Jamaica? For whatever reason, artistically or comedically, WDI chose a Spanish colony scene in 1965 when their Pirate ride got approved.

Not that there can't be Black members of the society on an island that is a Spanish Colony. But honestly, there's only 7 Animatronics representing the villagers in that ride, plus 3 Spaniard Conquistador guys defending the fort. There's not a whole lot of robots to go around for villager parts. You've got to draw the line somewhere. They went with Spaniards.



Sure, but then you get into kind of a pandering situation where you are pretending that grand mansions in the Antebellum South were owned and inhabited by Black people. I'm not one of those Haunted Mansion geeks, so I may be wrong, but the portraits in the grand Portrait Gallery were of previous family members who met their demise.

But then, it's just an amusement park. So if it makes the kids happy to have a Black man be killed off in some comedy way in the Portrait Gallery, then go for it.

I think it's far more important that the CM's not overpack the elevators, close the doors to the foyer properly, and say the spiel dramatically enough, but that's just me and my White Privilege talking.



Another thing we agree on! That was just silly. Like they couldn't find a Latina voice actress in all of Southern California to record that for them? She's a Latina parrot. She escaped and Jose wonders where she went. It's a funny 60 year old line that needed an ending! But then they ruined it by getting some white lady from Irvine to do the recording for them. Idiots.

OMG, you are exhausting. You know Mr. 2000, since the covid crisis hit, and your rhetoric has taken drastic advantage of the relaxation of the political content standards moderation rules on this site, I have often found myself on the brink of putting you on "ignore," for the convoluted justifications you make for your antiquated opinions. I am on such a brink again, though I don't think that's something you could or should care about.

I'm not doing it yet because we have a certain history I currently think is still worth preserving. But I am not going to indulge you. Our conversation is concluded for tonight.

 

[mickEblu]

As far as animatronics go, I think the most obvious place to start subbing in representation of black people is, as Hans has said, in POTC. I understand there may be squeamishness about representing black people as drunken reprobate pirates, though black people were a huge percentage of the pirate population at this time and place.

Assuming that avoidance, I seen no reason that the auctioneer couldn't be black. Sure we just see him now as one of the pirates, but with restyling, he could just as easily be a townsfolk entrepreneur working the lucrative [ahem] chicken trade (or preferably a completely reworked vignette). For that matter, New Red could have been black or Caribbean indigenous.

Some of the townsfolk become more difficult as currently some of them are depicted as bound or otherwise subjugated which would trigger the same avoidance. But there are some that could easily be made more representative of both the black history of the Caribbean, and the real history of the Caribbean.

Also, as Hans said, Haunted mansion is another good candidate. Not only in the animatronics, but in installed imagery. Many mansion fans will be horrified, but there's no reason the portraits in the stretching room need to depict only whiteness. Nor the portraits in hallway. There are lots of ways Disney can increase minority representation in the parks without waiting for new IP to be created, though I appreciate the point @mickEblu made concerning that.

Oh, and restore Rosita's ethnicity, and be proud to do it.

I have to respectfully disagree with this approach. I’d prefer any attractions that try to be more inclusive to be new builds. The thought of including a Black auctioneer solely for the purpose of being more inclusive just seems so forced. Even more so than Redd who is also terrible. But at least she kind of existed before in some form. A change like that would come off so forced that instead of being taken away to a far off place as I suspend disbelief I’ll be thinking about political correctness and virtue signaling. Whether I want to or not. It would be unavoidable. I would rather not constantly be reminded about these things at the park. I want it to be the escape it was intended to be. I’d feel the same way about changing the portraits and the stretching room. I think they should tread lightly in this regard. Granted, it would only effect my generation and older. Younger children of today will never know the difference. Besides, by the time the kids are older I’m sure Disneyland will be much different. Hopefully with new exciting attractions that all kinds of people can be excited about. A new Princess and the Frog ride (that isn’t in Splash Mountain), a new Coco Ride, a new Moana ride... I’m all for it.

 

[Californian Elitist]

On the bright side it's out in the open now; there's no ambiguity left about what we're dealing with here.

Correct. So when similar topics come up, we’ll know who the usual suspects are (thankfully it seems to be a small number of people) and who will be up for listening and gave well-meaning discussion.

As I’ve said before, I do appreciate those who actually do listen.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Greek is now non-white? I have an old Greek friend who would beg to differ.

In his not-so-humble opinion, Greek culture led to the blossoming of all knowledge on the European continent and directly influenced the European Renaissance. Never get a Greek talking about his Greekness! It never ends.

I don't think there were many gingers in Ancient Greece.

 

[TP2000]

OMG, you are exhausting. You know Mr. 2000, since the covid crisis hit, and your rhetoric has taken drastic advantage of the relaxation of the political content standards moderation rules on this site, I have often found myself on the brink of putting you on "ignore," for the convoluted justifications you make for your antiquated opinions.

I just went and re-read my post you quoted. I can find no mention of politics or anything that doesn't involve a factual tally of current animatronics, the basic history of Caribbean colonies, or a similarly basic understanding of the work Marc Davis and Walt Disney's team did on Pirates circa 1965-1967.

I thought I was being very factual and honest. If there's some fact I've gotten wrong, please correct me.

We can put extra Black villagers into the town scenes on Pirates. We can turn Carlos into a Black man. I have no problem with any of that. I'm not really sure how that improves the storytelling, but if it soothes 21st century nerves then do it!

I merely was explaining why the Imagineers likely did what they did with those scenes and the handful of townsfolk animatronics when they designed it circa 1965. There's no politics or impropriety that would warrant moderation in the rest of my post. I'm not new here, I know the rules.

 

[Nirya]

Greek is now non-white? I have an old Greek friend who would beg to differ.

In his not-so-humble opinion, Greek culture led to the blossoming of all knowledge on the European continent and directly influenced the European Renaissance. Never get a Greek talking about his Greekness! It never ends.

As a Greek myself, uhh yeah there are a lot of Greeks who do not view themselves as white. My mom never hits caucasian on ethnicity checks, she says Other: Greek. On top of that, US history has shown that they were not considered white until more recently (my grandfather can tell you stories of how he was discriminated against when he came over during WWII).

But this gets to a larger point that the entire concept of race was a man-made concept designed to explain why certain groups were superior to others. Even considering what we now think to be "white", you have whole groups like the Irish and Italians who were not originally in that group, and you even have whole groups like the Hispanics who were originally considered to be "white" but had that designation removed over time.

 

[TP2000]

I don't think there were many gingers in Ancient Greece.

Only her hairdresser knows for sure, but she seems sort of sandy blonde to me. I suppose you could darken her hair to look stereotypically Greek.

When I Google "Greek Godess", I get a bunch of pictures of white girls. Some have dark hair, most have light hair. Here's a family reunion apparently, per Google's algorithm.

Is that what all this is about? Darkening hair and features on minor characters appearing briefly in amusement park rides? And that will make people happy? Okay, seems silly to me to edit a 50 year old ride that way, but do it if it makes people happy!

Make 'em all brunettes! Not a single blonde in the bunch. If it saves Disneyland, then do it!

 

[mickEblu]

As a Greek myself, uhh yeah there are a lot of Greeks who do not view themselves as white. My mom never hits caucasian on ethnicity checks, she says Other: Greek. On top of that, US history has shown that they were not considered white until more recently (my grandfather can tell you stories of how he was discriminated against when he came over during WWII).

But this gets to a larger point that the entire concept of race was a man-made concept designed to explain why certain groups were superior to others. Even considering what we now think to be "white", you have whole groups like the Irish and Italians who were not originally in that group, and you even have whole groups like the Hispanics who were originally considered to be "white" but had that designation removed over time.

Honestly, what is White? At what shade are you not considered white? Or is it determined by ethnicity?

 

[TP2000]

As a Greek myself, uhh yeah there are a lot of Greeks who do not view themselves as white. My mom never hits caucasian on ethnicity checks, she says Other: Greek. On top of that, US history has shown that they were not considered white until more recently (my grandfather can tell you stories of how he was discriminated against when he came over during WWII).

But this gets to a larger point that the entire concept of race was a man-made concept designed to explain why certain groups were superior to others. Even considering what we now think to be "white", you have whole groups like the Irish and Italians who were not originally in that group, and you even have whole groups like the Hispanics who were originally considered to be "white" but had that designation removed over time.

I've never specifically asked my Greek friend if he thinks he is "white". He looks white to me.

He just brings up his Greekness to remind us all that European civilization would never have thrived if it weren't for the Greeks. Or something like that. It's usually about that time I pour him another drink and try and change the subject.

 

[TP2000]

Honestly, what is White? At what shade are you not considered white? Or is it determined by ethnicity?

That's a great question. I have no idea. What is white?

I have seven people arriving on Saturday at 6'ish for dinner, and I previously described three of them as "non-white". But what does that even mean? One is Japanese, and his parents were even interred in Arkansas from 1942 to 1945 by President Roosevelt, so he gets a pass on being non-white. But then his wife is Latina, but rather light skinned, sort of Puerto Rican. One is definitely Black, and could never have passed as anything but Black 60 years ago when some folks still worried about that.

But what is white? Are Greeks white? I think they are, but then @Nirya says his family doesn't think so, and that's cool. But "Greek" is not a race, is it? It's a country. Are Laplanders white? And if Laplanders are white, are Eskimos white? I would say yes to Laplanders, but no to Eskimos.

So interesting, but kind of odd, to talk about!