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Jungle Cruise Update

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
In the same dedication he says the park is a tribute to "...the hard facts that have created America". How can that be true when every narrative is told from Walt's perspective or from the perspective of his artists who were almost exclusively white and male? How can you explain the minimizing of black and Native people in a place that is supposed to be meeting place for our "shared culture"?

Look, I have a great deal of admiration for Walt Disney, but there is no question that his films and theme parks were largely influenced by his experiences as a privileged white man living in a society dominated by white supremacy. A large part of Disneyland's initial success was dependent on the exclusive elevation of those specific ideals, and I'm glad things are changing.

To drive that point home here are two old Disneyland characterizations of African Americans at different times during the park's first decade of operation. So, outside of the aggressive uncivilized African natives and hapless safari guides, we have yet another sad example of the demeaning way in which black people have been portrayed to park visitors over the course of Disneyland's history. It's crazy to think it's 2021 and there is still a shortage of positive representations of a certain segment AMERICANS at Disneyland.

Eau13u8XQAIiD0V.jpg
Drall_TownSquareShine.jpg

Fair points. With that said, Disney has continually updated their parks to be more current with the times, which is why we don’t see Aunt Jemima in the park or the old violent “Indians” that used to be on the ROA. As we know, IP drives all new changes in the parks. What IP (that has more positive representation of Black people) would work organically within lands like Frontierland, New Orleans Square, Adventureland and Critter Country and all their attractions? I think when it’s framed like this it’s much easier to understand why their isn’t as much representation as you’d like.

Disney of course doing everything backwards with no long term game plan, has to resort to removing the representation of minorities that does exist because they have nothing to put within Disneyland to balance it out. Especially if we want IP that will work organically with the lands of the west side of the park and not subject to being deemed offensive. They ve been sitting on Princess and the Frog for 10 years. They could have put her ride in the Pooh building or at the Fantasyland theatre but I guess they didn’t feel that it was big enough hit. Which brings up another question. Should a private company be directed or pressured to use an IP if the public decided they didn’t want it? So that brings up another complexity. The IP not only needs to be harmonious with Disneyland’s lands / attractions and gain 100% approval of being positive/ non offensive to minorities (in this case Black people) but it also has be a hit.

The animation division is obviously working on this with movies like Moana, Coco, Soul, etc coming out the last few years. It will just take some time for the properties to get to the parks. Not all of them will always work and some will probably have to be “forced” in like PatF in Splash Mountain.

I’d imagine if and when a new park opens Stateside you will get exactly what you are looking for as they won’t face the challenge that I laid out above. I mean even with DCA, there are things they can easily add within Hollywoodland/ backlot or Avengers Campus with IP like Black Panther (which was a hit) that could fit the Bill. So as a half Italian/ half Arab who honestly doesn’t have a horse in this race (other than nostalgia for DL) I do prefer that at least when it comes to Disneyland that they preserve as much of its rich history when possible. As long as something is not outright racist which IMO Disneyland is free of at the moment. Of course, that’s just my opinion. In the meantime their should be someone in the parks division working very closely with animation/ films so they can add appropriate IP that balance out the portrayal of minorities within DL. Instead of just going and bulldozing all the old stuff because they have nothing else.
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
In the same dedication he says the park is a tribute to "...the hard facts that have created America". How can that be true when every narrative is told from Walt's perspective or from the perspective of his artists who were almost exclusively white and male? How can you explain the minimizing of black and Native people in a place that is supposed to be meeting place for our "shared culture"?

Whether we like it or not, we have a shared American culture. That's why Walt said that on Opening Day.

Which is also why I, as a Swedish kid on the West Coast, adored The Supremes and owned all their records and even made a pilgrimage (I don't use that word lightly) to the Motown Museum in Detroit and nearly fainted when I stood in Mr. Gordy's garage with the egg cartons still stapled to the walls where the girls performed their first few years of hits. The Supremes were Black and from inner-city Detroit, and I was an upper-middle class white kid 2,000 miles away. But we were all American.

The Supremes and I and everyone else who loved Motown share a common American culture.

All of us on this board also share a common American culture with our love of Disneyland. If there's something more American than Disneyland, then I don't know what it would be.
Look, I have a great deal of admiration for Walt Disney, but there is no question that his films and theme parks were largely influenced by his experiences as a privileged white man living in a society dominated by white supremacy. A large part of Disneyland's initial success was dependent on the exclusive elevation of those specific ideals, and I'm glad things are changing.

To drive that point home here are two old Disneyland characterizations of African Americans at different times during the park's first decade of operation. So, outside of the aggressive uncivilized African natives and hapless safari guides, we have yet another sad example of the demeaning way in which black people have been portrayed to park visitors over the course of Disneyland's history. It's crazy to think it's 2021 and there is still a shortage of positive representations of a certain segment AMERICANS at Disneyland.

Got it. But stereotyping people 60 or more years ago is not exclusive to Black people, and it certainly wasn't exclusive to Disneyland. If anything, Disneyland offered its stereotypes in the kindest and gentlest way possible at the time compared to other pop culture, even if today from our 2021 computer screens we shriek in horror at those photos of Aunt Jemima serving pancakes in 1957.

Certainly we'd all agree that white women at Disneyland need not only be housewives who only have interests in talking about their cooking and housework chores made easier by General Electric?

a45af2b43692d98e6cafa87a2bd8e4f4.jpg


There's a million different categories we can carve ourselves up into as Americans, and I'm not so naive to think that in many fashionable social circles today you are expected to do just that and wear your niche demographic like a badge of honor.

Women, Blacks, Italians, Vietnamese, elderly, young, rich, middle class, disabled, blind, transgender, bisexual, veteran status (Honorably Discharged in 2013 after three tours in Iraq? Or Dishonorably Discharged in 1982 and stripped of all benefits when your CO found out you were gay? There's status to be gained by both now!)

My point? I wouldn't mind one bit if Disneyland added exciting high-quality rides based on a traditional Black story, or a new Black story that really resonates with Americans. Heck, I'm looking forward to Tiana taking over Splash Mountain because I didn't even know that ride had a plotline for the first five years until I rode the WDW version! The Disneyland version of Splash Mt. is a total mess! So improve it, and if Tiana can tell a better story on that log ride, let her have at it. Presented by Ziploc! 🤣

But to think that all Americans aren't welcomed by Walt Disney in his opening day speech seems very sad to me. And I don't understand it.

Honestly, what could be more welcoming and inclusive than saying...

"To all who come to this happy place, welcome!"
 
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Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
In the same dedication he says the park is a tribute to "...the hard facts that have created America". How can that be true when every narrative is told from Walt's perspective or from the perspective of his artists who were almost exclusively white and male? How can you explain the minimizing of black and Native people in a place that is supposed to be meeting place for our "shared culture"?

Look, I have a great deal of admiration for Walt Disney, but there is no question that his films and theme parks were largely influenced by his experiences as a privileged white man living in a society dominated by white supremacy. A large part of Disneyland's initial success was dependent on the exclusive elevation of those specific ideals, and I'm glad things are changing.

To drive that point home here are two old Disneyland characterizations of African Americans at different times during the park's first decade of operation. So, outside of the aggressive uncivilized African natives and hapless safari guides, we have yet another sad example of the demeaning way in which black people have been portrayed to park visitors over the course of Disneyland's history. It's crazy to think it's 2021 and there is still a shortage of positive representations of a certain segment AMERICANS at Disneyland.

Eau13u8XQAIiD0V.jpg
Drall_TownSquareShine.jpg

Thank you for sharing even more valid and important points on this topic.

Your post made me think of classic attractions that should have way better representation in them.

At Epcot, The American Adventure, it severely lacks representation, and quite frankly there is no reason for that. So many incredible people or stories they could tell.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

Disney of course doing everything backwards with no long term game plan, has to resort to removing the representation of minorities that does exist because they have nothing to put within Disneyland to balance it out.

This. 💯

Should a private company be directed or pressured to use an IP if the public decided they didn’t want it? So that brings up another complexity.

I think a consumer focused global leadership team like Disney would be mistaken if it thinks it can compete and thrive without reflecting all its customers. There is a reason why most large US organizations, including Disney, have adopted inclusion and diversity programs. Sure, many of these initiatives are performative, but progress is progress.

The IP not only needs to be harmonious with Disneyland’s lands / attractions and gain 100% approval of being positive/ non offensive to minorities (in this case Black people) AND be a hit.

Is this hard to do? I don't think it is.

I’d imagine if and when a new park opens Stateside you will get exactly what you are looking for as they won’t face the challenge that I laid out above.

I wouldn't count on it, especially if it's being led by the same group of white designers developing attractions for WDI today. I could be wrong, and I will admit that I'm a cynic when it comes to this topic, but the impression I have is that the recent update announcements at Disneyland/WDW are largely the result of corporate mandates, not creative decisions initiated, conceived, and developed by people of color within the ranks of WDI. Things will continue to improve, but there will be missteps until WDI, and more broadly Disney, has better representation internally across the organization.
 
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D

Deleted member 107043

Whether we like it or not, we have a shared American culture. That's why Walt said that on Opening Day.

Which is also why I, as a Swedish kid on the West Coast, adored The Supremes and owned all their records and even made a pilgrimage (I don't use that word lightly) to the Motown Museum in Detroit and nearly fainted when I stood in Mr. Gordy's garage with the egg cartons still stapled to the walls where the girls performed their first few years of hits. The Supremes were Black and from inner-city Detroit, and I was an upper-middle class white kid 2,000 miles away. But we were all American.

The Supremes and I and everyone else who loved Motown share a common American culture.

All of us on this board also share a common American culture with our love of Disneyland. If there's something more American than Disneyland, then I don't know what it would be.


Got it. But stereotyping people 60 or more years ago is not exclusive to Black people, and it certainly wasn't exclusive to Disneyland. If anything, Disneyland offered its stereotypes in the kindest and gentlest way possible at the time compared to other pop culture, even if today from our 2021 computer screens we shriek in horror at those photos of Aunt Jemima serving pancakes in 1957.

Certainly we'd all agree that white women at Disneyland need not only be housewives who only have interests in talking about their cooking and housework chores made easier by General Electric?

a45af2b43692d98e6cafa87a2bd8e4f4.jpg


There's a million different categories we can carve ourselves up into as Americans, and I'm not so naive to think that in many fashionable social circles today you are expected to do just that and wear your niche demographic like a badge of honor.

Women, Blacks, Italians, Vietnamese, elderly, young, rich, middle class, disabled, blind, transgender, bisexual, veteran status (Honorably Discharged in 2013 after three tours in Iraq? Or Dishonorably Discharged in 1982 and stripped of all benefits when your CO found out you were gay? There's status to be gained by both now!)

My point? I wouldn't mind one bit if Disneyland added exciting high-quality rides based on a traditional Black story, or a new Black story that really resonates with Americans. Heck, I'm looking forward to Tiana taking over Splash Mountain because I didn't even know that ride had a plotline for the first five years until I rode the WDW version! The Disneyland version of Splash Mt. is a total mess! So improve it, and if Tiana can tell a better story on that log ride, let her have at it. Presented by Ziploc! 🤣

But to think that all Americans aren't welcomed by Walt Disney in his opening day speech seems very sad to me. And I don't understand it.

Honestly, what could be more welcoming and inclusive than saying...

"To all who come to this happy place, welcome!"

This post epitomizes why a Disneyland discussion board, one with apparently only two active black people in it, is the last place to have a substantive conversation about this subject. It's not the job of black people to explain American imperialism, systemic white supremacy or racism to you. Educate yourself. Go do some research. Listen and learn why people feel they way they do about these things. Please.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Fair points. With that said, Disney has continually updated their parks to be more current with the times, which is why we don’t see Aunt Jemima in the park or the old violent “Indians” that used to be on the ROA. As we know, IP drives all new changes in the parks. What IP (that has more positive representation of Black people) would work organically within lands like Frontierland, New Orleans Square, Adventureland and Critter Country and all their attractions? I think when it’s framed like this it’s much easier to understand why their isn’t as much representation as you’d like.

Disney of course doing everything backwards with no long term game plan, has to resort to removing the representation of minorities that does exist because they have nothing to put within Disneyland to balance it out. Especially if we want IP that will work organically with the lands of the west side of the park and not subject to being deemed offensive. They ve been sitting on Princess and the Frog for 10 years. They could have put her ride in the Pooh building or at the Fantasyland theatre but I guess they didn’t feel that it was big enough hit. Which brings up another question. Should a private company be directed or pressured to use an IP if the public decided they didn’t want it? So that brings up another complexity. The IP not only needs to be harmonious with Disneyland’s lands / attractions and gain 100% approval of being positive/ non offensive to minorities (in this case Black people) but it also has be a hit.

The animation division is obviously working on this with movies like Moana, Coco, Soul, etc coming out the last few years. It will just take some time for the properties to get to the parks. Not all of them will always work and some will probably have to be “forced” in like PatF in Splash Mountain.

I’d imagine if and when a new park opens Stateside you will get exactly what you are looking for as they won’t face the challenge that I laid out above. I mean even with DCA, there are things they can easily add within Hollywoodland/ backlot or Avengers Campus with IP like Black Panther (which was a hit) that could fit the Bill. So as a half Italian/ half Arab who honestly doesn’t have a horse in this race (other than nostalgia for DL) I do prefer that at least when it comes to Disneyland that they preserve as much of its rich history when possible. As long as something is not outright racist which IMO Disneyland is free of at the moment. Of course, that’s just my opinion. In the meantime their should be someone in the parks division working very closely with animation/ films so they can add appropriate IP that balance out the portrayal of minorities within DL. Instead of just going and bulldozing all the old stuff because they have nothing else.
This is one of those situations where the everything IP focus has made everything weirder. And they ARE actively working to tell new types of stories, which is commendable.

But at the same time, there's still a lot of non-IP attractions and areas, and there's not really a reason that almost everyone represented in those non-IP attractions needed to be white. And as there WERE black cowboys, black people in the south, in New Orleans, in colonial times, and there will be black people in the future...who's to say that they DON'T belong in those lands now? Why wait for an IP invasion?

I don't believe it was an intended slight on the part of the designers, but it is the way it is. And while Disney may certainly feel differently, I really don't think there's much left that is actually offensive in the way those Jungle Cruise villagers were, nothing that is *actively* wrong or *must* change. I do think that swapping out a few AA's here or there so that there is SOME representation is not inherently a bad or terrible thing, though Disney being Disney, they could certainly muck up the execution, as they are prone to do.
Which is also why I, as a Swedish kid on the West Coast, adored The Supremes and owned all their records and even made a pilgrimage (I don't use that word lightly) to the Motown Museum in Detroit and nearly fainted when I stood in Mr. Gordy's garage with the egg cartons still stapled to the walls where the girls performed their first few years of hits. The Supremes were Black and from inner-city Detroit, and I was an upper-middle class white kid 2,000 miles away. But we were all American.

The Supremes and I and everyone else who loved Motown share a common American culture.

All of us on this board also share a common American culture with our love of Disneyland. If there's something more American than Disneyland, then I don't know what it would be.


Got it. But stereotyping people 60 or more years ago is not exclusive to Black people, and it certainly wasn't exclusive to Disneyland. If anything, Disneyland offered its stereotypes in the kindest and gentlest way possible at the time compared to other pop culture, even if today from our 2021 computer screens we shriek in horror at those photos of Aunt Jemima serving pancakes in 1957.

Certainly we'd all agree that white women at Disneyland need not only be housewives who only have interests in talking about their cooking and housework chores made easier by General Electric?

a45af2b43692d98e6cafa87a2bd8e4f4.jpg


There's a million different categories we can carve ourselves up into as Americans, and I'm not so naive to think that in many fashionable social circles today you are expected to do just that and wear your niche demographic like a badge of honor.

Women, Blacks, Italians, Vietnamese, elderly, young, rich, middle class, disabled, blind, transgender, bisexual, veteran status (Honorably Discharged in 2013 after three tours in Iraq? Or Dishonorably Discharged in 1982 and stripped of all benefits when your CO found out you were gay? There's status to be gained by both now!)

My point? I wouldn't mind one bit if Disneyland added exciting high-quality rides based on a traditional Black story, or a new Black story that really resonates with Americans. Heck, I'm looking forward to Tiana taking over Splash Mountain because I didn't even know that ride had a plotline for the first five years until I rode the WDW version! The Disneyland version of Splash Mt. is a total mess! So improve it, and if Tiana can tell a better story on that log ride, let her have at it. Presented by Ziploc! 🤣

But to think that all Americans aren't welcomed by Walt Disney in his opening day speech seems very sad to me. And I don't understand it.

Honestly, what could be more welcoming and inclusive than saying...

"To all who come to this happy place, welcome!"
We are all Americans (well, most people here), but we DON'T all have the same experience of living in America. Particularly when differences like race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. are involved. The fact that you loved the Supremes meant that you could connect with many people because of that mutual appreciation, but it did not erase the fact that you have had very different life experiences from some of their other fans. For many, your similarities started and ended with liking the Supremes.

And as you know, intent does not always match result. How many of us have tried to do something we thought was nice and well-meaning, only for it to blow up in our faces? Same principle. That Walt Disney and TWDC set out to welcome all is not necessarily the same thing as everyone actually FEELING welcome there, even if the company and every cast member and Imagineer really did go into each decision or interaction with the best of intentions.

It's not just so simple as to just say that as Americans, we should all feel equally welcome and included and that's that. You seem to perceive that in the past that was the case. But in, say, the time Disneyland was built, who was given a voice and a platform? White straight men and their wives. That was about it. Their way simply was THE way, and you either conformed (if you could) or you were irrelevant at best as far as society was concerned, if not outright toxic. Those voices you hear now calling for change and inclusion, let's be clear, have ALWAYS existed-it's just that in the past, they had no platform, no outlet, no one who took their needs and concerns seriously. You perceived a culture of unity because one group was allowed to dominate and control essentially ALL the conversations, the media, everything.

Now minority groups have some platforms and influence, which is progress, but it's still not equitable, much less equal.

That doesn't mean we can't be united, but it's disingenuous to claim that we should be united if we're not actually interested in hearing what each group that makes up our country has to say and we want to carry on as if it's still the 1950s.

There are some things we all share, and will continue to share as members of this country-but there is not just one common American, and it's irresponsible to assume that each person, every group, etc. has the same wants and needs that can be satisfied in the same way.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
This is one of those situations where the everything IP focus has made everything weirder. And they ARE actively working to tell new types of stories, which is commendable.

But at the same time, there's still a lot of non-IP attractions and areas, and there's not really a reason that almost everyone represented in those non-IP attractions needed to be white. And as there WERE black cowboys, black people in the south, in New Orleans, in colonial times, and there will be black people in the future...who's to say that they DON'T belong in those lands now? Why wait for an IP invasion?

I don't believe it was an intended slight on the part of the designers, but it is the way it is. And while Disney may certainly feel differently, I really don't think there's much left that is actually offensive in the way those Jungle Cruise villagers were, nothing that is *actively* wrong or *must* change. I do think that swapping out a few AA's here or there so that there is SOME representation is not inherently a bad or terrible thing, though Disney being Disney, they could certainly muck up the execution, as they are prone to do.

We are all Americans (well, most people here), but we DON'T all have the same experience of living in America. Particularly when differences like race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. are involved. The fact that you loved the Supremes meant that you could connect with many people because of that mutual appreciation, but it did not erase the fact that you have had very different life experiences from some of their other fans. For many, your similarities started and ended with liking the Supremes.

And as you know, intent does not always match result. How many of us have tried to do something we thought was nice and well-meaning, only for it to blow up in our faces? Same principle. That Walt Disney and TWDC set out to welcome all is not necessarily the same thing as everyone actually FEELING welcome there, even if the company and every cast member and Imagineer really did go into each decision or interaction with the best of intentions.

It's not just so simple as to just say that as Americans, we should all feel equally welcome and included and that's that. You seem to perceive that in the past that was the case. But in, say, the time Disneyland was built, who was given a voice and a platform? White straight men and their wives. That was about it. Their way simply was THE way, and you either conformed (if you could) or you were irrelevant at best as far as society was concerned, if not outright toxic. Those voices you hear now calling for change and inclusion, let's be clear, have ALWAYS existed-it's just that in the past, they had no platform, no outlet, no one who took their needs and concerns seriously. You perceived a culture of unity because one group was allowed to dominate and control essentially ALL the conversations, the media, everything.

Now minority groups have some platforms and influence, which is progress, but it's still not equitable, much less equal.

That doesn't mean we can't be united, but it's disingenuous to claim that we should be united if we're not actually interested in hearing what each group that makes up our country has to say and we want to carry on as if it's still the 1950s.

There are some things we all share, and will continue to share as members of this country-but there is not just one common American, and it's irresponsible to assume that each person, every group, etc. has the same wants and needs that can be satisfied in the same way.


When it comes to non IP parts of the park I think they ve covered their bases with the entertainers, musicians and shows. You have entertainers from all different races in the park. I think our focus in this conversation had been the attractions and that’s a much trickier subject and where they would need the IP. Not to mention the park is almost fully fleshed out. Clearly, they re trying with the new stuff and that’s commendable even if it doesn’t always hit like with Vi Moradi at Galaxies Edge. Nobody cares because nobody knows who the heck she is. Finn is inside ROTR. What could they feasibly or organically add to the attractions to the west side of the park outside of little things like the mixed races of people on the Rhino pole and stuff like that? Without ripping out attractions a la Splash Mountain of course.
 

DanielBB8

Well-Known Member
This post epitomizes why a Disneyland discussion board, one with apparently only two active black people in it, is the last place to have a substantive conversation about this subject. It's not the job of black people to explain American imperialism, systemic white supremacy or racism to you. Educate yourself. Go do some research. Listen and learn why people feel they way they do about these things. Please.
That’s some major gaslighting like don’t come here until you have the exact politics of Woke. Sorry, people are not like that.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
When it comes to non IP parts of the park I think they ve covered their bases with the entertainers, musicians and shows. You have entertainers from all different races in the park. I think our focus in this conversation had been the attractions and that’s a much trickier subject and where they would need the IP. Not to mention the park is almost fully fleshed out. Clearly, they re trying with the new stuff and that’s commendable even if it doesn’t always hit like with Vi Moradi at Galaxies Edge. Nobody cares because nobody knows who the heck she is. Finn is inside ROTR. What could they feasibly or organically add to the attractions to the west side of the park outside of little things like the mixed races of people on the Rhino pole and stuff like that? Without ripping out attractions a la Splash Mountain of course.
As I said, there's nothing stopping them from just swapping out an AA here or there and making that little change.

Disney would have to resist the urge to be all "WE'RE DOING THIS BIG GRAND THING" for it to not seem pandering, but there's nothing stopping them from doing that, really.

Assuming also that they hire appropriate sounding voice actors and don't just throw a Red-level vocal performance in there.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
As I said, there's nothing stopping them from just swapping out an AA here or there and making that little change.

Disney would have to resist the urge to be all "WE'RE DOING THIS BIG GRAND THING" for it to not seem pandering, but there's nothing stopping them from doing that, really.



Assuming also that they hire appropriate sounding voice actors and don't just throw a Red-level vocal performance in there.


True but when I hear People like Dr Hans say they want more meaningful representation, I took that to mean something more than a guy on the Rhino pole or a town person in POTC.

That execution on the Auction scene is baffling. Still can’t believe how bad they messed that up. I really hope it’s not long for this world
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
True but when I hear People like Dr Hans say they want more meaningful representation, I took that to mean something more than a guy on the Rhino pole or a town person in POTC.

That execution on the Auction scene is baffling. Still can’t believe how bad they messed that up. I really hope it’s not long for this world
And Hans is right. I don't necessarily know how to go about it and not seem to reek of tokenism to some people. But it was a thought.

I don't know if status quo is totally viable either though. Not sure what is.
 
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mickEblu

Well-Known Member
And Hans is right. I don't necessarily know how to go about it and not seem to reek of tokenism to some people. But it was a thought.

I don't know if status quo is totally viable either though. Not sure what is.

Tomorrowland. Outside of that or
making major changes to existing attractions I don’t know. I’d really like for them to left side of the park alone. It’s near perfect. Well before Mama Odies boat ends up on Chikapin Hill.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
This post epitomizes why a Disneyland discussion board, one with apparently only two active black people in it, is the last place to have a substantive conversation about this subject. It's not the job of black people to explain American imperialism, systemic white supremacy or racism to you. Educate yourself. Go do some research. Listen and learn why people feel they way they do about these things. Please.

Hans, because I've known you online for over 20 years, I'm going to be very honest with you...

We're talking about a silly amusement park. I am not getting paid for this. This is not my job, nor are you my boss. So, no, I'm not going to go "educate" myself on how evil America has been to everyone except rich white men like Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford. That homework assignment just sounds like a miserable evening.

I still enjoy your contributions here, but that's just not on my list of things I'm interested in doing at my age. I have a dinner party to plan for this weekend (And three of my seven guests are non-white! Guess who's coming to dinner?!?) and I have a spring gardening season that is rapidly approaching. Plus I waste an hour or two each day commenting here into the ether. I'm really busy here! :D

I will end with this. If this very clear statement from Walt Disney does not mean respect and inclusivity to you, I don't know what to tell you.

I happen to think this is a beautiful sentiment of equity and grace...

"To All Who Come To This Happy Place, Welcome!" :)
 

Practical Pig

Well-Known Member
As far as animatronics go, I think the most obvious place to start subbing in representation of black people is, as Hans has said, in POTC. I understand there may be squeamishness about representing black people as drunken reprobate pirates, though black people were a huge percentage of the pirate population at this time and place.

Assuming that avoidance, I seen no reason that the auctioneer couldn't be black. Sure we just see him now as one of the pirates, but with restyling, he could just as easily be a townsfolk entrepreneur working the lucrative [ahem] chicken trade (or preferably a completely reworked vignette). For that matter, New Red could have been black or Caribbean indigenous.

Some of the townsfolk become more difficult as currently some of them are depicted as bound or otherwise subjugated which would trigger the same avoidance. But there are some that could easily be made more representative of both the black history of the Caribbean, and the real history of the Caribbean.

Also, as Hans said, Haunted mansion is another good candidate. Not only in the animatronics, but in installed imagery. Many mansion fans will be horrified, but there's no reason the portraits in the stretching room need to depict only whiteness. Nor the portraits in hallway. There are lots of ways Disney can increase minority representation in the parks without waiting for new IP to be created, though I appreciate the point @mickEblu made concerning that.

Oh, and restore Rosita's ethnicity, and be proud to do it.
 

Sharon&Susan

Well-Known Member
When it comes to non IP parts of the park I think they ve covered their bases with the entertainers, musicians and shows. You have entertainers from all different races in the park. I think our focus in this conversation had been the attractions and that’s a much trickier subject and where they would need the IP. Not to mention the park is almost fully fleshed out. Clearly, they re trying with the new stuff and that’s commendable even if it doesn’t always hit like with Vi Moradi at Galaxies Edge. Nobody cares because nobody knows who the heck she is. Finn is inside ROTR. What could they feasibly or organically add to the attractions to the west side of the park outside of little things like the mixed races of people on the Rhino pole and stuff like that? Without ripping out attractions a la Splash Mountain of course.
Mace Windu's Jedi Force Ghost Challenge Trail.
 

Professortango1

Well-Known Member
Hans, because I've known you online for over 20 years, I'm going to be very honest with you...

We're talking about a silly amusement park. I am not getting paid for this. This is not my job, nor are you my boss. So, no, I'm not going to go "educate" myself on how evil America has been to everyone except rich white men like Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford. That homework assignment just sounds like a miserable evening.

I still enjoy your contributions here, but that's just not on my list of things I'm interested in doing at my age. I have a dinner party to plan for this weekend (And three of my seven guests are non-white! Guess who's coming to dinner?!?) and I have a spring gardening season that is rapidly approaching. Plus I waste an hour or two each day commenting here into the ether. I'm really busy here! :D

I will end with this. If this very clear statement from Walt Disney does not mean respect and inclusivity to you, I don't know what to tell you.

I happen to think this is a beautiful sentiment of equity and grace...

"To All Who Come To This Happy Place, Welcome!" :)
Its everyone's job to check their privilege. I'm sorry that trying to better to your friends and neighbors isn't seen as a worthwhile investment of time.
 

George Lucas on a Bench

Well-Known Member
That execution on the Auction scene is baffling. Still can’t believe how bad they messed that up. I really hope it’s not long for this world

What are you, a misogynist? Since I've Checked My Privilege™, I've immediately come to realize that the Plussed Auction Scene is just so empowering for women. Finally, there is positive female representation in Pirates of the Caribbean.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
True but when I hear People like Dr Hans say they want more meaningful representation, I took that to mean something more than a guy on the Rhino pole or a town person in POTC.

That execution on the Auction scene is baffling. Still can’t believe how bad they messed that up. I really hope it’s not long for this world

Agreed. I'm still confused on what "representation" means exactly. But removing Africans from a ride about Africa doesn't seem like a good way to increase representation, unless we want to pretend that 1.2 Billion humans don't live on the African continent.

And that got me thinkin', which is often dangerous as my critics here so often remind me...

How many humans are represented in Disneyland via Animatronic or major Video format? Not aliens, not wild animals, not singing chickens, not even ghosts. But humans, preferably of the animatronic form since if you can get an animatronic into a Disneyland ride that means you've really made it!

Here's what I came up with;

Main Street USA - 1 Human Animatronic
  • President Abraham Lincoln - White Male
Adventureland - 19 Human Animatronics
  • Indiana Jones Adventure, 1 Dr. Indiana Jones - White Male
  • Jungle Cruise, 16 African tribesmen - Black Males
  • Jungle Cruise, 1 Trader Sam - Black Male
  • Jungle Cruise, 1 Explorer/Hunter - White Male
New Orleans Square - 47 Human Animatronics/Videos (not counting ghosts, cause who knows about skeletons?!)
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Banjo Player - White Male
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 29 Pirates - White Males? (it's hard to tell, but let's count 'em as all white)
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Pirate - Asian Male
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Fort Conquistadors - Hispanic Males
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 2 Men Villagers - Hispanic Males
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Female Villagers - Hispanic/White Females
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 1 Redhead - White Female
  • Pirates of the Caribbean, 3 Jack Sparrow - White Male Heroin Addict
  • Haunted Mansion, Constance The Bride - White Female (video projection)
  • Haunted Mansion, 3 of Constances Dead Husbands - White Males (video projection)
  • Haunted Mansion, Little Constance - White Female - (hologram)
Critter Country - Zero
  • No Human Animatronics
Frontierland - 13 Human Animatronics
  • Rivers of America, 12 American Indians - 8 Indian Males, 4 Indian Females
  • Tom Sawyer Island, 1 Pirate In The Cave - 1 White Male
Mickey's Toontown - 1 Human Animatronic
  • Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin, 1 Jessica Rabbit - White Female
Tomorrowland - 2 Human Animatronics
  • Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters, 1 Buzz Lightyear - White Male (in uniform)
  • Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage, 1 Darla Scuba Diver - White Female
Fantasyland - No Human Animatronics, But These Stories Representing Each Nation
  • Alice In Wonderland - Great Britain
  • Peter Pan's Flight - Great Britain
  • Mr. Toad's Wild Ride - Great Britain
  • Pinnochio's Daring Journey - Italy
  • Snow White's Enchanted Wish - Germany
  • Sleeping Beauty Castle Walk Thru - Great Britain
  • Casey Jr. Circus Train - American South
  • StorybookLand Canal Boats - Everything and Anything!
  • Matterhorn Bobsleds - Switzerland
  • Dumbo Flying Elephant - American South
  • King Arthur's Carousel - Great Britain
  • Mad Tea Party - Great Britain
  • It's A Small World - The Entire Planet! (Except Canada, who only gets a plywood Mountie)
So let's add that up. Disneyland has...

83 Human Animatronics In Disneyland as of Pre-Closure 2020
  • 38 White Males
  • 17 Black Males
  • 8 American Indian Males
  • 6 White Females
  • 5 Hispanic Males
  • 4 American Indian Females
  • 3 Hispanic Females
  • 1 Asian Male
  • 1 White Male Heroin Addict
As a reminder, per the US Census Bureau, the current demographic makeup of the United States in 2019 was...
  • Non-Hispanic White = 60.1%
  • Hispanic/Latino = 18.5%
  • Black = 13.4%
  • Asian = 5.9%
  • Mixed Race = 2.8%
  • American Indian/Alaskans/Hawaiians = 1.5%
  • Heroin Users = 0.2%
 
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TP2000

Well-Known Member
Its everyone's job to check their privilege. I'm sorry that trying to better to your friends and neighbors isn't seen as a worthwhile investment of time.

That's just a topic that's never come up at my dinner parties, even though many of my guests are non-white. We talk about food, wine, travel, the arts, family, sports, and we share our favorite recipes or latest funny story. And if the right people show up, there can be some juicy neighborhood gossip on the patio.

But discussing the history of human imperialism and violent conquest of the last 2,000 years? That's a topic that just doesn't sound like much fun for a gaggle of friends sharing good food.

But if that's how your dinner parties and cocktail do's go down, then... remind me to be busy if you extend an invitation to socialize and laugh and chat with friends. :oops:
 
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