Jungle Cruise Update

[Nirya]

Honestly, what is White? At what shade are you not considered white? Or is it determined by ethnicity?

Do you want the honest answer? Because historically, skin color has never had anything to do with whether someone is white or not. The more important factor is whether the people in power believe you should be part of the in-group or not. There is nothing that should have kept the Irish from being considered white if you went by skin color, but because the Irish in the 19th century were considered to be "uncivilized", they were not considered white and were kept out of various positions. Same thing happened with the Italians in the late 19th century. Hispanics shifted away from being white in the 1940s (there's some fascinating history on this subject, including why Mexico bid for the Olympics in the 60s).

No matter what, though, the main point is that the concept of being white was used as a signifier that said person was superior. There are cases where the concept of being white was very obvious, such as with Africans and the slave trade, and there are cases where the concept of being white was more of a semantic argument. In all cases, the idea of someone being white was used as shorthand for superiority.

 

[mickEblu]

Do you want the honest answer? Because historically, skin color has never had anything to do with whether someone is white or not. The more important factor is whether the people in power believe you should be part of the in-group or not. There is nothing that should have kept the Irish from being considered white if you went by skin color, but because the Irish in the 19th century were considered to be "uncivilized", they were not considered white and were kept out of various positions. Same thing happened with the Italians in the late 19th century. Hispanics shifted away from being white in the 1940s (there's some fascinating history on this subject, including why Mexico bid for the Olympics in the 60s).

No matter what, though, the main point is that the concept of being white was used as a signifier that said person was superior. There are cases where the concept of being white was very obvious, such as with Africans and the slave trade, and there are cases where the concept of being white was more of a semantic argument. In all cases, the idea of someone being white was used as shorthand for superiority.

So as a half Italian half Arab, born in the USA and burns before he tans, am I half white? I go back and forth on those questionnaires from “White” to “Other.”

 

[Nirya]

So as a half Italian half Arab am I half white? I go back and forth on those questionnaires from “White” to “Other.”

Do what makes you feel comfortable, honestly.

That's not me being dismissive. Truly, just go with what you are most comfortable with.

 

[TP2000]

About the Irish, there's also the big glaring issue that they were Catholics and not Protestants. And not just Catholics who quietly went about their religion and tried to blend in, but wore their Catholicism on their sleeve and used Catholic leaders in all their public services and practices.

That type of display rubbed the ruling classes of Northeast USA the wrong way 200 years ago. The Protestants who arrived from England 200 years earlier and built a thriving civilization wanted things done their way, not the Pope's way. Or so the thought went back then. That sentiment lasted into the early 20th century, until the second and third generation of Irishmen built substantial wealth and political influence by the 1920's.

It's funny what a bunch of money that results from hard work can do for the downtrodden!

An Irishman could blend in with their features and skin tone to Protestant America quite easily, but it was the strident Catholicism that led to signs in Boston shop windows that said "No Irish Need Apply"

Or at least that's what my friend Gayle told me several decades ago when I lived in Boston. She was Irish and very Catholic, and also a helluva a good friend and dinner party guest. That woman was hysterical!!!

 

[mickEblu]

Do what makes you feel comfortable, honestly.

That's not me being dismissive. Truly, just go with what you are most comfortable with.

I honestly don’t feel represented on those things

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I have never been to a dinner party, or any social event, or any gathering of friends who have known each other for decades, where we talked about racism and inequity

Makes sense. This aligns with your general lack of self-awareness. Given that an evening of self-reflection, learning, and a moment of consideration for other viewpoints on race would make you "miserable" none of this surprises me at all.

OMG, you are exhausting.

Glad I'm not alone in that opinion. The Japanese have a saying: An empty barrel makes the most noise.

 

[Nirya]

I honestly don’t feel represented on those things

Feel free to go with Other: Mixed, then! Or just say Other and leave it blank. Those things are arbitrary as all hell anyway.

 

[mickEblu]

Feel free to go with Other: Mixed, then! Or just say Other and leave it blank. Those things are arbitrary as all hell anyway.

Yeah I know. I mean, I don’t lose any sleep over it. It’s just an odd thing to be confused about

 

[TP2000]

I honestly don’t feel represented on those things

Couldn't you just check "American" for nation, and "Decline To State" for race?

 

[mickEblu]

Couldn't you just check "American" for nation, and "Decline To State" for race?

I’ve never seen “American” as an option but I think there is usually a decline option.

 

[TP2000]

Makes sense. This aligns with your general lack of self-awareness. Given that an evening of self-reflection, learning, and a moment of consideration for other viewpoints on race would make you "miserable" none of this surprises me at all.

Okay, seriously Hans, you throw dinner parties where you gather people of different races together to talk about race and "self-reflection"??? Like for real, you really do that, and you plan a menu and stock a bar and get the house all ready for that type of race talk?

As a party host, I can't think of anything more weird than talking about racism with mixed race friends at a dinner party. Or even if I hosted parties that only had white people, which rarely happens now except for immediate family.

Level with me please, you really host evenings and social events based on self-reflection and learning about racism???

 

[TP2000]

Although, now that I think about it, this thread has to be one of the most interesting conversations about race I've seen in sometime. Perhaps forever.

I've learned a few things. I've bit my tongue a few times. I've expressed myself as graciously and as honestly as possible, and read some enlightening comments from others. Even though I know full well I am not sticking to the Approved Good Person Script: 2021 Edition on much of this stuff, but just trying to be honest with people I've known online for decades.

It seems some folks would rather we stick to an approved script, instead of actually talk openly and honestly.

I still don't know that I would dare try and bring up these topics at a dinner party with friends, but the safety of a computer screen allows us to say stuff we're not allowed to say in polite society or in the office break room.

I have thought this thread was fun! And I was surprised at how many non-white animatronics Disneyland actually has, as a fun bonus.

 

[mickEblu]

Although, now that I think about it, this thread has to be one of the most interesting conversations about race I've seen in sometime. Perhaps forever.

I've learned a few things. I've bit my tongue a few times. I've expressed myself as graciously and as honestly as possible, and read some enlightening comments from others.

I still don't know that I would dare try and bring up these topics at a dinner party with friends, but the safety of a computer screen allows us to say stuff we're not allowed to say in polite society or in the office break room.

I have thought this thread was fun! And I was surprised at how many non-white animatronics Disneyland actually has, as a fun bonus.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I have deeper conversations here then with people in real life. Conversations with all of my family and extended family (outside of my wife), friends and acquaintances are pretty shallow and repetitive.

 

[TP2000]

I’ve come to the conclusion that I have deeper conversations here then with people in real life. Conversations with all of my family and extended family (outside of my wife), friends and acquaintances are pretty shallow and repetitive.

Yeah, me too. Especially in this thread. It's been really interesting and fun!

 

[mickEblu]

Yeah, me too. Especially in this thread. It's been really interesting and fun!

Interesting yes. Not sure about fun. Lol

 

[TP2000]

Interesting yes. Not sure about fun. Lol

Well... entertaining?

 

[Californian Elitist]

I’ve spoken about racial topics at work (“the office”) and in society in general plenty of times. It’s not abnormal. Many workplaces have entire training sessions and seminars on the topics of race.

 

[BrianLo]

The Japanese have a saying: An empty barrel makes the most noise.

It's an attention getting schtick most definitely. Sometimes best to not feed into it.

I’ve spoken about racial topics at work (“the office”) and in society in general plenty of times. It’s not abnormal. Many workplaces have entire training sessions and seminars on the topics of race.

Same, same. But I'm also not hosting dinner parties these days.

 

[TP2000]

I’ve spoken about racial topics at work (“the office”) and in society in general plenty of times. It’s not abnormal. Many workplaces have entire training sessions and seminars on the topics of race.

I must tell you, as a white person, there is a certain script you must stick to as a white person when that topic comes up at an HR training session at work. Some of us have not stuck to that script in this thread, and instead we spoke openly and honestly about our opinions, notably me.

Are you fine with me speaking openly and honestly, and offering basic facts like the total number of white vs. non-white animatronics at Disneyland compared to the racial demographics of the United States? Or would you rather me stick to the script and just nod along silently like all white people must do in the HR session?

I'm still baffled at the idea that I would broach the subjects in this thread at a dinner party, regardless if the guest list was mixed-race or all-white. I can't remember the last time I attended an all-white party with more than 6 people, but I assume some folks in other parts of the country still only socialize with people of their own race.

 

[Californian Elitist]

It's an attention getting schtick most definitely. Sometimes best to not feed into it.



Same, same. But I'm also not hosting dinner parties these days.

Lol in all seriousness, it does appear that age sometimes has to do with what we’re seeing in this thread. Those older in age sometimes aren’t all the way caught up with societal changes.