Jungle Cruise Update

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Now imagine if Disney's America actually got off the ground. A historiographical nightmare if I've ever heard one.

It would be Disney's Wonders of China by this point.

 

[Miru]

The Rivers of America, Frontierland, Main Street, Walt statue, Indiana Jones...perhaps just destroy the entire park and start over.

Radiator Springs Racers as well.

 

[Professortango1]

Trader Sam has a bar named after him that's wildly successful, how does it make sense to remover Trader Sam?

Because the name can survive without the depiction in the ride. We have Trader Joe's and we don't have an image of an actual Trader Joe.

Trader Sam's depiction is problematic for modern audiences. So, Disney is getting rid of it. I'll miss Sam, but the idea of headhunters/shrinkers is no longer PC.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

So he's becoming Trader Joe? What's he selling cheap crap wine?

 

[Kram Sacul]

Other than the inevitable PC garbage changes this seems okay. Of course we’re comparing it to the recent POTC train wreck and the upcoming Frog Mountain overlay no one asked for.

Another change that seems perfectly fine to me but will somehow be interpreted as SJW's gone amuck.

"Of course, the white man is at the bottom of the pole now!"

Your check from Disney is in the mail.

 

[Tamandua]

I was never really that invested in the jungle cruise, but this is disappointing because it feels like everything Disney does is becoming so bland. I sort of want to be a little offended. The same way I want to be a little stressed out when I watch an action movie or go on a thrill ride.

I think period rides like Jungle Cruise or Pirates should get a pass from the PC brigade. History wasn't always PC, and if you want to feel like you're living in another time for a few minutes, you don't want to keep thinking about how they revised the scenes to keep from offending people. History is full of mistakes. Learn from them. Don't erase them.

 

[Miru]

It’s only a matter of time before a protest against these changes happens... then what would happen?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

just curious, would you be ok with the scene if it was framed as them being tribe people instead of head hunters and that they re defending their territory from foreigners? Is it the headhunter narrative that you re bothered by or is it that the only Black person AAs in all Disneyland were depicted as “savages” in grass skirts. I can understand the former. The latter I think gets a pass due to the context of the attraction. But I could be splitting hairs now. I guess the issue isn’t in the weeds but more when looked at from a birds eye view.

What if the Jungle Cruise operations were owned by black person? There might be a simple backstory about them (like Harrison Hightower III or Lord Henry Mystic) and how they opened their business to tourists for jungle exploration. Since the trip flips from Asia to Africa maybe they have an Asian business partner, or the ride is reworked so the location is just Africa? Perhaps the character(s) could be woven into the journey's narrative somehow.

If they must show natives then at least get it right and present them respectfully and accurately. It's embarrassingly obvious they did zero research when that scene was developed.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

It's probably best if I let this go. I encourage you to do some work and query folks away from Disney fansites and get informed on this subject.



It doesn't matter much to me whether Walt Disney and Marc Davis, two successful white men who, up to the point of designing Disneyland, had been successful in Hollywood, were racists or not. What matters to me is that they literally designed tableaus with racist undertones and then put them in Disneyland and then again in Walt Disney World. I'll stop here since this thread is not the place for expanding on my point of view on racism and how Disney Parks casually promotes racist stereotypes.

TLDR: I'm far less concerned with why Walt and the Imagineers created what they did than I am with Disney correcting it. All I'm asking for is positive representational balance and equity in my theme park attractions..

If they must show natives then at least get it right and present them respectfully accurately. It's embarrassingly obvious they did zero research when that scene was developed.

I’m asking this honestly because I am interested in your opinion. Do you consider the most recent changes to the Rivers of America and depictions of Native Americans to be a positive representation? If not, how could it be improved without stripping these vignettes of their character altogether?

Should any representation include review of diversity committee of like-minded representatives? Would that sufficiently correct this? The reason I ask is because I think in a theme park environment there is a natural suspension of disbelief to a degree.

In some cases though I just wonder to what degree that balance is weighted (in terms of the benefit of the doubt) in what is/was meant to be an intentionally fictionalized/fantastically environment where characters and characterizations are sometimes exaggerated for effect.

I also wonder/worry to what extent we’re asking for too much by blurring the line between entertainment and civics/history. While this is well and good as an academic exercise, I’m not sure how to feel that we’re seemingly relying on theme parks (as opposed to say, our educational institutions?) as a de facto moral barometer in this instance.

 

[Californian Elitist]

This place is so toxic and awful sometimes. It's sad and disappointing that so many Disney fans are like this.

He’s not getting the point and is not interested in understanding at that.

Your post reminded of the issue I have with Naveen from Princess and the Frog. They could have actually made Tiana’s love interest black. He could have simply been a wealthy man with greed, but instead they made him racially ambiguous with a European accent. Lots of potential and missed opportunities.

 

[TP2000]

Of course I'm pleased by this news. The change is welcome and way overdue.

Now can we get some black and indigenous people in POTC please? I never understood how a show that takes place in the Caribbean, of all places, could so unashamedly erase black people without anyone noticing or raising a fuss.

To be honest Hans, they appear to be erasing the Black people who appeared in the Jungle Cruise; Trader Sam and the dancing natives. There have been Black people in the Jungle Cruise for many decades, but now the depiction of African peoples in an African setting is seen as "negative" (their word), so they have been erased. Poof! Gone. Erased.

The Jungle Cruise will now be peopled by a collection of white people, and one Samoan pro-wrestler from Hayward who has a decent comedic range but romantic-comedies are still a bit of a stretch for him. While the novelty and humor is provided solely by the animals.

But at least the white people left who are still seen in the Jungle Cruise will have an elaborate backstory that no one will know or care about, and the Skipper will trip over himself to include the clumsy, un-funny approved jokes about them during the 14 seconds our boat drifts through that rhino poking 'em in the butt up the tree trunk scene.

More Relevant! More Disney!

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I’m down for this!

Again it seems weird to recycle a similar joke using similar apes (why not do a funny giraffe scene)

Silly. A giraffe can’t fit on those boats.

They take...gi-RAFTS.

ba-dum bum.

 

[waltography]

There have been Black people in the Jungle Cruise for many decades, but now the Eurocentric colonialist depiction caricature of African peoples as savages in an African setting is seen as "negative" (their word), so they have been erased. Poof! Gone.

There! FTFY.

 

[TP2000]

He’s not getting the point and is not interested in understanding at that.

Your post reminded of the issue I have with Naveen from Princess and the Frog. They could have actually made Tiana’s love interest black. He could have simply been a wealthy man with greed, but instead they made him racially ambiguous with a European accent. Lots of potential and missed opportunities.

You and I probably have very different life experiences when it comes to race, but I couldn't agree with you more.

I found it remarkably insulting that Tiana's love interest couldn't be a Black man. They had to make him just sort of tan, and European, and ambiguous. Was he Brazilian? Portuguese? Tahitian? God forbid he actually be Black.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I’m asking this honestly because I am interested in your opinion. Do you consider the most recent changes to the Rivers of America and depictions of Native Americans to be a positive representation? If not, how could it be improved without stripping these vignettes of their character altogether?

I'm not Native American so it isn't my place to speak on the Rivers of America changes as they relate to cultural depictions.

Should any representation include review of diversity committee of like-minded representatives?

Yes, of course. The reason why inclusion is a problem now is because of a lack of diversity in the decision making process in the past.

I also wonder/worry to what extent we’re asking for too much by blurring the line between entertainment and civics/history.

Don't overthink this. I'm not suggesting anyone tiptoe around fantasy or history.

 

[PiratesMansion]

To be honest Hans, they appear to be erasing the Black people who appeared in the Jungle Cruise; Trader Sam and the dancing natives. There have been Black people in the Jungle Cruise for many decades, but now the depiction of African peoples in an African setting is seen as "negative" (their word), so they have been erased. Poof! Gone. Erased.

The Jungle Cruise will now be peopled by a collection of white people, and one Samoan pro-wrestler from Hayward who has a decent comedic range but romantic-comedies are still a bit of a stretch for him. While the novelty and humor is provided solely by the animals.

But at least the white people left who are still seen in the Jungle Cruise will have an elaborate backstory that no one will know or care about, and the Skipper will trip over himself to include the clumsy, un-funny approved jokes about them during the 14 seconds our boat drifts through that rhino poking 'em in the butt up the tree trunk scene.

More Relevant! More Disney!

The overall point he is making is that bad representation can be worse than no representation.

No one wants to see themselves or whatever group(s) they belong to represented as the worst, most obnoxious, most stereotypical version possible. It may be more 'palatable' to some if they are presented in that way, and its simplified and less complicated, but it can leave unfortunate implications and messages behind. Especially if the group being depicted doesn't get represented very much in a given context, period.

 

[TP2000]

Radiator Springs Racers as well.

We all do realize that giant rock formation in Radiator Springs Racers is an Indian Chief taken from Pontiac hood ornaments of the 1940's and 1950's, right? Back when Pontiac had model names like Chieftain and Star Chief.

What will the Diversity & Inclusion Committee at WDI replace this with I wonder?

 

[Californian Elitist]

You and I probably have very different life experiences when it comes to race, but I couldn't agree with you more.

I found it remarkably insulting that Tiana's love interest couldn't be a Black man. They had to make him just sort of tan, and European, and ambiguous. Was he Brazilian? Portuguese? Tahitian? God forbid he actually be Black.

It looks like they were going for a racially mixed black and white look. His hair doesn’t match that of a mixed race black and white person though. They missed the mark.

 

[TP2000]

No one wants to see themselves or whatever group(s) they belong to represented as the worst, most obnoxious, most stereotypical version possible. It may be more 'palatable' to some if they are presented in that way, and its simplified and less complicated, but it can leave unfortunate implications and messages behind. Especially if the group being depicted doesn't get represented very much in a given context, period.

I take it you haven't been on the Frozen ride at Epcot, then?

 

[TP2000]

It looks like they were going for a racially mixed black and white look. His hair doesn’t match that of a mixed race black and white person though. They missed the mark.

They missed it by a mile. He just should have been a Black man, just as Tiana is obviously a Black lady.