Jim Hill and Grizz's Call to Arms

imagineer boy

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
Grizz, I am happy you have kept your cool. After I read the first few paragraphs of the article, I clicked off of it in rage. I have seen Al Lutz get quite negative sometimes ( but mostly now days he's cooled a bit with the great new management over in DL ) but Jim Hill went way over board in an "I'm right and you're wrong! So there, HA HA!" attitude. I am personally very angry about the changes to the land. The people who have concaucted these ideas are the geniuses behind Super Star Limo, Dino Rama, WDS, and Magic Carpets of Aladdin. I mean, I know they're trying to get it to theme with the Soarin attraction, but it takes away the whole concept of the pavillion!!!! The cruise lines just doesn't cut it. It takes away the whole concept of the ride. There are so many other ways to make the land more attractive to the public than turning it into a stupid good for nothing travel agency! GAAAH! :fork: :fork: :fork: :fork:

*END OF RANT*
 
speck76

speck76

Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with Jim Hill on this one.

It is my opinion that Grizz's problems with The Land renovation are rather pointless.

From my understanding, Grizz is upset that the pavilion is being ruined, that the new theme has nothing to do with The Land, or what has been in the past the purpose of The Land. Question........how many dumb tourists "get" the significance of the balloons and the fountain?....my guess.....not too many. And yes, the food court is nice, but since it maintains a rather captive audiance, shouldn't the arguement be to improve the other food outlets in FW......the food court is nothing special, it is just the best of a few bad choices.

Finally, I will repeat my belief that the new "theme" will not overtake the overall purpose of the pavilion, rather it will tie together the individual attractions in the pavilion. I also believe that if some "theme" tied together the attractions in WoL, that pavilion may still be open.


And Grizz...I am still waiting for you to answer my last question on your Land thread.
 
G

General Grizz

New Member
speck76 said:
I tend to agree with Jim Hill on this one.

It is my opinion that Grizz's problems with The Land renovation are rather pointless.

From my understanding, Grizz is upset that the pavilion is being ruined, that the new theme has nothing to do with The Land, or what has been in the past the purpose of The Land. Question........how many dumb tourists "get" the significance of the balloons and the fountain?....my guess.....not too many. And yes, the food court is nice, but since it maintains a rather captive audiance, shouldn't the arguement be to improve the other food outlets in FW......the food court is nothing special, it is just the best of a few bad choices.

Finally, I will repeat my belief that the new "theme" will not overtake the overall purpose of the pavilion, rather it will tie together the individual attractions in the pavilion. I also believe that if some "theme" tied together the attractions in WoL, that pavilion may still be open.


And Grizz...I am still waiting for you to answer my last question on your Land thread.
Click to expand...
Which was?

(P.S. I think WoL is pretty unified. Life as explored through medicine, fitness, health, the senses, and stresses. It ain't open.)
 
speck76

speck76

Well-Known Member
General Grizz said:
Speck, I promise I will give your question a worthy response when I type up an article on it. You'll be the first one to read it.

Whatcha want, bud? A Wonders of Life Travel Agency? :D :lookaroun
Click to expand...

No, but some theme could have been overlayed into the pavilion.....maybe....a hospital theme, and each attraction is a different ward (off the top of my head)
 
G

General Grizz

New Member
speck76 said:
No, but some theme could have been overlayed into the pavilion.....maybe....a hospital theme, and each attraction is a different ward (off the top of my head)
Click to expand...
Wow. That's a very interesting concept. I can't say it appeals to me, but I see what you're thinking and how that relates to the Travel Agency.

I can't think of any, but do you know of any other Disney attractions that feature this setup?
 
speck76

speck76

Well-Known Member
General Grizz said:
Wow. That's a very interesting concept. I can't say it appeals to me, but I see what you're thinking and how that relates to the Travel Agency.

I can't think of any, but do you know of any other Disney attractions that feature this setup?
Click to expand...


Not off the top of my head......but I have read of some World's Fair pavilions like this.....I will try to find a link
 
G

General Grizz

New Member
speck76 said:
Not off the top of my head......but I have read of some World's Fair pavilions like this.....I will try to find a link
Click to expand...
GE's Progressland was much like Wonders of Life (attraction, several exhibits), and the Magic Skyway was very similar to the World of Motion: slow-moving ride and a "Transcenter-esque" post-show.
 
speck76

speck76

Well-Known Member
General Grizz said:
GE's Progressland was much like Wonders of Life (attraction, several exhibits), and the Magic Skyway was very similar to the World of Motion: slow-moving ride and a "Transcenter-esque" post-show.
Click to expand...


ahhh....I was talking about "recent" world's fair pavilions, but, ok
 
Legacy

Legacy

Well-Known Member
As much I as respect Grizz and the time and effort he puts into his "Call to Arms", I must say that I agree with Speck on all of this. Yes, Jim did come across a brat who had had his feelings hurt and was trying to cry to as many people who would listen, but despite his attitude I feel he made some valid points. Epcot SHOULD change; all the parks should. But on that same token, the essence of the parks should hold true. I completely agree with Grizz in that respect, and will support him as much as I can.

However, Grizz can sometimes appear to be the rabid bear that Jim paints him to be. I'm not saying this to knock Grizz, but it's how I feel. To be honest, I sometimes feel like every little change that is occuring seems to get Grizz's dander up. I know that is not the perception Grizz wants, and I know that that is not perception that we have of him. But to Jim Hill, a guy who has established himself and seems to make that website his life, Grizz could have (and obviously did) get the idea that the General was an angry purist.

Grizz is being the bigger man here, that obvious. But just because he is being more mature doesn't make him or his causes "Right"; and just because Jim decided to cry about the whole thing doesn't make him "wrong". As of right now, since all we are making our judgements off of is rumors, nobody is right or wrong. Speculation is mounting on if this re-imagining will work, both in the fiscal and idealogical sense. What everybody needs to do is just give it time. Imagineering, although they messed up with Dino-Rama, has been very successful in maintaining the basic idea while modernizing it (and yes, that includes Tiki). They know what they are doing, and I honestly expect this "terminial" idea to work very well.

:lookaroun

Please don't flame me...
 
SirNim

SirNim

Well-Known Member
Valid points, Legacy. :)

Change always provokes scrutiny... always has, always will.

But do we really want another "Goofy's Dancing Jamboree" on our hands? The recent track record of the Company, though dotted with significant achievements, is, on the whole, curving downward. When you alter an attraction with such weight as The Land, you must be positive the impact will be for the better, for progress. This is the core of our argument.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
tigsmom said:
I never said I agreed with either side or how those sides were presented. This has the potential for trouble. I'm not a fan of Jim Hill as I don't care for his style of reporting and as much as I respect Grizz, there are times I don't agree with him and I'm sure he feels the same about me.

Change for change sake is not the way to go.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what potential for trouble there is, however, I do not see how one can be so neutral when Grizz was so publicly attacked. Again, it's not about whom you agree with, it's the fact that Jim Hill was about as professional as picking your nose during a business meeting and flicking it on your boss. I simply disagree that there are two sides to this, as you initially stated - Jim Hill decided to attack, without provocation, Grizz in a very public manner without even reading the thread in question or contacting him. He used insults and attack language towards him.

It has nothing to do with agreeing or not with the outcome of The Land, it has to do with a member of our boards being publicly attacked. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree - or, I guess agree to be complacent, in your case.

AEfx
 
Legacy

Legacy

Well-Known Member
SirNim said:
Valid points, Legacy. :)

Change always provokes scrutiny... always has, always will.

But do we really want another "Goofy's Dancing Jamboree" on our hands? The recent track record of the Company, though dotted with significant achievements, is, on the whole, curving downward. When you alter an attraction with such weight as The Land, you must be positive the impact will be for the better, for progress. This is the core of our argument.
Click to expand...
Great mention of the Dancing Jamboree, but wasn't that a change manufactured by Entertainment due to Management's wishes? I understand the core of you're argument, but to be perfectly frank, the archetecture of the Land pavillion fits into the idea of an 'airport'. I wish it didn't have to happen that way; that they would have simply built a seperate entrance for Soarin', but that did not happen. I honestly think this overlay will be quite effective. It won't be the same pavillion, of course, but the educational aspect (which is the heart of the Land) will remain. It's just that instead of focusing solely on "The Land", it will grow to encompass the Sky. I think this is an idea strongly suited for today's Imagineering. They have a focused idea of what to move towards. Dino-Rama is a vauge idea, and strongly clashes with Dinoland itself. A "travel agency" doesn't clash with Epcot, or Future World. The concept works, and the concept has merit. The fear because of Dino-Rama, the Dancing Jamboree, and (to a lesser extent) Tiki is valid, but the modifications by themselves are poor ideas when compared to their originals. I think this "New Land" works, and will be a success. What all of the Disneyanna fans (myself included) are going to have to do is look at the re-vamping on the whole. A new attraction has been added to the Land, in Soarin', but the concept of the Land would have strongly clashed with the attraction. This overlay is going to help reachieve that continuity, and make the pavillion better on the whole.

If Soarin' was it's seperate attraction, this wouldn't be nessecary. But as it is, the overlay (I feel) is VITAL to mantaining the continuity and integrity to the WHOLE pavillion.
 
Computer Magic

Computer Magic

Well-Known Member
Legacy said:
Great mention of the Dancing Jamboree, but wasn't that a change manufactured by Entertainment due to Management's wishes? I understand the core of you're argument, but to be perfectly frank, the archetecture of the Land pavillion fits into the idea of an 'airport'. I wish it didn't have to happen that way; that they would have simply built a seperate entrance for Soarin', but that did not happen. I honestly think this overlay will be quite effective. It won't be the same pavillion, of course, but the educational aspect (which is the heart of the Land) will remain. It's just that instead of focusing solely on "The Land", it will grow to encompass the Sky. I think this is an idea strongly suited for today's Imagineering. They have a focused idea of what to move towards. Dino-Rama is a vauge idea, and strongly clashes with Dinoland itself. A "travel agency" doesn't clash with Epcot, or Future World. The concept works, and the concept has merit. The fear because of Dino-Rama, the Dancing Jamboree, and (to a lesser extent) Tiki is valid, but the modifications by themselves are poor ideas when compared to their originals. I think this "New Land" works, and will be a success. What all of the Disneyanna fans (myself included) are going to have to do is look at the re-vamping on the whole. A new attraction has been added to the Land, in Soarin', but the concept of the Land would have strongly clashed with the attraction. This overlay is going to help reachieve that continuity, and make the pavillion better on the whole.

If Soarin' was it's seperate attraction, this wouldn't be nessecary. But as it is, the overlay (I feel) is VITAL to mantaining the continuity and integrity to the WHOLE pavillion.
Click to expand...
This and your other post makes perfect sense and no one should be flaming you. They may have a different opinion, but that's okay.

Jim would have been better off to counter Grizz with his views of the new land and left the negatively on the sidelines. He would have come across more creditable and more people may have agreed with him.

What we have here is two topics, 1) wheather or not we agree with the changes to the land and 2) how Jim treated Grizz.
 
Legacy

Legacy

Well-Known Member
FamilyMan said:
Just in case someone wants it...

stadlerhill@mindspring.com

I'm not one to go out and rant about someone, but I think Jim needed to look deeper into what General Grizz stands for. It's just bad writing.
Click to expand...
It was shallow and quick writing, neither of which is a part of credibility. It's on him. I'm sure he's getting absolutely flooded with hate mail about this Why For, so he's the one who is going to have and regain his reader's trust. I've always taken what Jim has said with a grain of salt, and crap like this is why.
 
marni1971

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Jim Hills article left me feeling, well, sore. I did send a reply in `discuss this article` but felt it ran round in circles a bit. I could be classed as an `old timer` who dosn`t want change, but I enjoy Test Track as much as the next person. Its the changes on the cheap I don`t like (20k - come on, ten years to decide on a garden? Where the masterplan?) and the 2nd and 3rd Imaginations - 1/3 shorter, big in your face gift shop, close upstairs), the changes for the sake of change (Stitch - although yes, I will probably love it) and the badly planned and rushed changes - Walt Disney Studios, Paris. My thoughts in full are on Jim Hills discussion baord (should anyone want to plough through it) but I really hope I am wrong.
 
G

General Grizz

New Member
marni1971 said:
Jim Hills article left me feeling, well, sore. I did send a reply in `discuss this article` but felt it ran round in circles a bit. I could be classed as an `old timer` who dosn`t want change, but I enjoy Test Track as much as the next person. Its the changes on the cheap I don`t like (20k - come on, ten years to decide on a garden? Where the masterplan?) and the 2nd and 3rd Imaginations - 1/3 shorter, big in your face gift shop, close upstairs), the changes for the sake of change (Stitch - although yes, I will probably love it) and the badly planned and rushed changes - Walt Disney Studios, Paris. My thoughts in full are on Jim Hills discussion baord (should anyone want to plough through it) but I really hope I am wrong.
Click to expand...
I can't find it. Where is it exactly?

EDIT: I see that if it could have been an earlier post from today; sorry, I assumed you had just recently put it up.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom