JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
Id pay money to be at a park, sure I would........That looks like it would be very little fun.
Id pay money to be at a park, sure I would........That looks like it would be very little fun.
My understanding of the original goal of FastPass was that they wanted guests out of lines and in shops and restaurants spending money. There weren't the overcrowding problems in 1999 like there are today (I certainly cannot recall 2 hour waits for anything outside of what were the busiest times, like Easter week, Thanksgiving week, and Christmas to New Years), but I know it was still a concern. Maybe we split the difference and call the two goals 1A and 1B.![]()
I still have no idea what you're trying to argue. The specific thesis of the video addressed people who continued parroting that Epcot was outdated because technology had caught up to the present when the attractions themselves were based on specific subjects and mostly covered history. I agree with you that the presentation was dated but you can still keep the core ride intact without completely replacing it with something else. Spaceship Earth and Living with the Land I think prove that.
But the comments were about Fastpass in the 90s.. not FP+The main argument for it really was a specific increase in observed satisfation. I mean, here's the project overview slide:
View attachment 749349
Everything on the left deals with guest satisfaction. At least half the stuff on the right does too.
Not a single word about income or revenue. As I mentioned earlier, the word 'revenue' only appears once in the entire 100+-page document.
You could argue that phrases like "Enable a new framework to drive NGE" really means "make more money". But this is an internal document, and they could use direct language like 'increase revenue' if they wanted to. They didn't. For 100 pages. Which means it wasn't a factor in moving to FP+.
Yes, the population has grown. But the big problem is the parks haven't. Capacity hasn't really changed in 20 plus years, so of course they can't lower prices. Disney has never been a cheap vacation, but it has become almost ridiculous. Especially with all the cuts and downgrades with a Disney trip now. It's all a matter of opinion on what constitutes being "too expensive". For myself, I don't mind a higher price if it means a greater experience, but I did not get that on my last trip.People are more likely to be priced out now compared to the past, but what can you do?
The population has grown.
If Disney were to be truly priced in a way that anyone could go, they'd have to ration admission. They'd be sold out more often.
I understand the reasoning. I'm saying specifically that no internal document I've ever seen, mentions revenue as the reason for FP+.
Do you have a document that says this? Or maybe an earnings call comment before they launched FP+ where they specifically said "we're doing this mostly for revenue?"
Because if they didn't tell the board it was for revenue, and they didn't tell stockholders it was for revenue, and they said it was for something else, we kinda have to believe it was for the something else, right?
Add me to the list of people who are envious that you have access to that type of stuff.The main argument for it really was a specific increase in observed satisfation. I mean, here's the project overview slide:
View attachment 749349
Everything on the left deals with guest satisfaction. At least half the stuff on the right does too.
Not a single word about income or revenue. As I mentioned earlier, the word 'revenue' only appears once in the entire 100+-page document.
You could argue that phrases like "Enable a new framework to drive NGE" really means "make more money". But this is an internal document, and they could use direct language like 'increase revenue' if they wanted to. They didn't. For 100 pages. Which means it wasn't a factor in moving to FP+.
It's funny you try to paint this as parroting - when if I'm correct, you yourself weren't even there to qualify the experience at all, were you?
Your real argument is your belief the attractions should not have been replaced because you believe they could have been refreshed or overhauled and kept the same attraction. But instead you create the false assertion that claims they were outdated was a 'myth' or a false narrative on your journey to try to support your belief they attractions could have been saved.
The real fact is - they could not have continued as they were operating because the actual attraction experiences were OUT OF DATE. Therefore it was no myth. The poor utilization of the attractions by guests also supports this. At the time, FW was underperforming and many attractions were not pulling their weight. What would be done, replace, or reboot, DOES NOT CHANGE the fact the attractions were very much worthy of the criticism at the time.
You are in effect creating your own false citations trying support your predisposed view. Throwing out historical criticism as inaccurate because you believe (in hindsight) they could have been overcome differently. Believing a different solution would work does not negate the original problem existing!
Your video is revisionist fueled by nostalgia for something that was taken away and attempts to discredit contemporary critique as a way to make your conclusion seem more natural.
This wasn't some 20k leagues situation - the attractions were in actual dire need of reworking. The original narrative of futurism and optimism for society wasn't as inspiring in culture anymore like it had previously. Many young people today don't realize the darkness that was so common in entertainment media in the 70s (the move to realism, etc), followed by so many international struggles, energy crisis, urban decay, failing industries, etc. New media pushing optimism in the late 70s/early 80s was seen as a fresh change... and optismism for future was a breath of fresh air. But it quickly got overtaken by consumerism and the boom of the 80s. EPCOT's Scripts and choices were very much a product of it's time of creation. Culture focus had changed rapidly from the late 70s to the early 90s. Technology advanced faster than ever. Much of FW in the 90s stood out like the 70s TV shows would today if shown today.
In the bigger picture, like it or not, the move from Edutainment had started, and hasn't stopped since. Ain't nobody screaming to bring back WoL or speedtunnels either.
Add me to the list of people who are envious that you have access to that type of stuff.
I don't doubt for a second that FP+ was about improving the guest experience, because Iger and Staggs didn't want to invest in ride capacity in what they viewed as a "mature asset". Plus the datamining aspect probably left many MBA's internaly drooling in their chairs. It had its benefits when it was rolled out, which sadly eroded over time because of the lack of investment in park capacity in the ensuing years, as we all know, on top of increased attendance. But the original, paper FastPass system, from my understanding, was around getting people out of lines and into shops and restaurants to (hopefully) spend money. Maybe that's wrong, but it's been backed up by a lot of people who know people, or know things, or are good guessers.![]()
But don’t underestimate the guest dissatisfaction with long lines pre-FastPass. People were complaining - loudly and consistently - about long lines in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s. I’m sure that was a consideration.Add me to the list of people who are envious that you have access to that type of stuff.
I don't doubt for a second that FP+ was about improving the guest experience, because Iger and Staggs didn't want to invest in ride capacity in what they viewed as a "mature asset". Plus the datamining aspect probably left many MBA's internaly drooling in their chairs. It had its benefits when it was rolled out, which sadly eroded over time because of the lack of investment in park capacity in the ensuing years, as we all know, on top of increased attendance. But the original, paper FastPass system, from my understanding, was around getting people out of lines and into shops and restaurants to (hopefully) spend money. Maybe that's wrong, but it's been backed up by a lot of people who know people, or know things, or are good guessers.![]()
That was a time where we got to talk and get to know other fellow guests in the queue line instead of many with their heads down staring at the smartphones.But don’t underestimate the guest dissatisfaction with long lines pre-FastPass. People were complaining - loudly and consistently - about long lines in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s. I’m sure that was a consideration.
Long lines in the 80's and 90's were confined, for the most part, to holiday weeks, spring break, and the busy summer months. You knew going in that lines would be long during those times. I even checked my Birnbaum's from 1990 and 1997, plus the 1994 Unofficial Guide, to confirm. Unless you call walking on and riding Space Mountain 18 times in a row in December 1991 "long lines", I'd say your memory does not match what was written in multiple books about park crowds at that time.But don’t underestimate the guest dissatisfaction with long lines pre-FastPass. People were complaining - loudly and consistently - about long lines in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s. I’m sure that was a consideration.
Yes I was just telling my kids the other day. You used to chat up the families around you in line. People talked about where they are from or what they were doing they day. Now everyone just stares at their phones and gets grumpy about waiting.That was a time where we got to talk and get to know other fellow guests in the queue line instead of many with their heads down staring at the smartphones.
Everything a business does is to increase revenue.
We don't just say "They build new rides for people to enjoy and has nothing to do with money" even though that is what all calls, documents and statements made since Walt Disney are going to promote. It is an idea and part of the fun, but for the business, it is for revenue.
What did you check in those books? It says long lines were confined to the busiest seasons? Why do you think all those guides were published?Long lines in the 80's and 90's were confined, for the most part, to holiday weeks, spring break, and the busy summer months. You knew going in that lines would be long during those times. I even checked my Birnbaum's from 1990 and 1997, plus the 1994 Unofficial Guide, to confirm. Unless you call walking on and riding Space Mountain 18 times in a row in December 1991 "long lines", I'd say your memory does not match what was written in multiple books about park crowds at that time.
Since it wasn’t a financial mechanism that directly affected bottom line…go back and think about it: any reason they WOULDN’T say it was all “guest satisfaction”?As I said, nothing in the 100-page FP+ presentation to Disney's BOD said anything about revenue, other than that one slide.
I've read this entire presentation multiple times. The bulk of the justification for FP+ really was guest satisfaction.
There was a time at MGM Studios at the Tip Board, a CM stood there most of the day answering guest questions and handwriting info of park info and I believe wait times with a chalk board.Long lines in the 80's and 90's were confined, for the most part, to holiday weeks, spring break, and the busy summer months. You knew going in that lines would be long during those times. I even checked my Birnbaum's from 1990 and 1997, plus the 1994 Unofficial Guide, to confirm. Unless you call walking on and riding Space Mountain 18 times in a row in December 1991 "long lines", I'd say your memory does not match what was written in multiple books about park crowds at that time.
Wouldn’t that be unnecessary if the lines weren’t long?There was a time at MGM Studios at the Tip Board, a CM stood there most of the day answering guest questions and handwriting info of park info and I believe wait times with a chalk board.
There was…There was a time at MGM Studios at the Tip Board, a CM stood there most of the day answering guest questions and handwriting info of park info and I believe wait times with a chalk board.
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