Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Disstevefan1]

I know this might come across bad, but I'm thrilled to see a potential downturn in attendance and hope it's long term. I'm not hoping for the demise of WDW. I'm hoping for a wake-up call at the top. I'm hoping someone really important (whoever that needs to be) realizes that they need to stop gouging consumers who've been loyal for decades, and start bringing back value in the form of more and better offerings (rides, shows, food), better maintenance, stop nickle and diming, yada, yada, yada. This would be a fantastic development for us diehards. This is the shakeup we really need so these boards can go back to discussing exciting new developments rather than talking about Apple chargers, etc.

"What's that Apple watch? You say you do not like @Pepper's Ghost comment about chargers? Its ok Apple watch, it's a human thing."

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Potential downturn in a business and belts are tightened in terms of expenses to run an operation including cutting hours of staff. These approaches occur first before some that lose their jobs because of downfall in business.

Very true... for the short term maybe as they assess whether the downturn is market-related or a problem with the product, but continued cuts in a downturn for their business is not a way to win back patrons. You don't increase attendance by slashing budgets and making the product worse. The only way a good company turns around a bad spell is by giving consumers a reason to come back. Any company that just keeps cutting in a downturn will eventually die. If I recall correctly... Econ 101.

Look at all the best performing companies in the world. Are any of those companies ones that produced a crap product and cut to the bone, or did they provide a superior product and then increase prices afterwards. Disney has done one of those two things the last several years, and it wasn't providing a superior product. That's a recipe for the disaster that seems impending.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are people forgetting that before the pandemic the decades-long custom of Summer being packed with guests and the Fall being the 'dead times' got reversed with Summer crowds becoming light and Fall crowds being packed?

Besides being cooler (a relative term, I know) in the Fall, I would plan an October and early December trips to WDW to purposely experience 'light crowds.'

And then that stopped. The Fall became heavy crowds and the Summer, light.

Remember?

You haven’t been lately, have you?

This is not a “progressive shift”…This has been below baseline

The discounts are large and increasing. This looks and feels like damage control

My in laws are in Epcot today and claim it’s crowded…I’ll put their day up today and you decide?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I know this might come across bad, but I'm thrilled to see a potential downturn in attendance and hope it's long term. I'm not hoping for the demise of WDW. I'm hoping for a wake-up call at the top. I'm hoping someone really important (whoever that needs to be) realizes that they need to stop gouging consumers who've been loyal for decades, and start bringing back value in the form of more and better offerings (rides, shows, food), better maintenance, stop nickle and diming, yada, yada, yada. This would be a fantastic development for us diehards. This is the shakeup we really need so these boards can go back to discussing exciting new developments rather than talking about Apple chargers, etc.

I want attendance down for two very good people/reasons:

For me…cause less crowds at REGULAR prices is better for everyone. Fact

And for me…cause maybe they get new management without their head up their @ss and stop running parks into the ground for the ferret

 

[flyerjab]

I have to say that after 14 years of devotion to the Mouse, almost blind loyalty that they could do no wrong, the cracks in the armor have finally appeared. And man have they ever.

I used to think that Iger knew what he was doing. It’s amazing what a couple bad years can do. The cherry on top was putting Chapek in charge. And then Iger thinks he’s coming back as this white night figure. “Hey we are stopping charging for parking at resorts but we are now making Genie+ appear so confusing that you won’t even realize how much money you are spending on stuff that was free!”

The cost of a WDW trip is staggering. Thank god we have DVC membership (I guess ). But even there, we are selling half of our points this year. Members at the GFV no more! Thanks Bob…

Next year we are planning an Italy trip…to the real Italy, not the Epcot version. It will probably be cheaper or similar in cost to a trip to WDW.

We need a change as the shine is really wearing off. I remember going there every year and there were new things being built everywhere (you can question how great they were but at least there was substantial change). Now Iger and Mr. Skinny Jeans quibble over the next nickel and dime opportunity while the competition builds a brand new park down the street. They look foolish at this point.

 

[GhostHost1000]

I have to say that after 14 years of devotion to the Mouse, almost blind loyalty that they could do no wrong, the cracks in the armor have finally appeared. And man have they ever.

I used to think that Iger knew what he was doing. It’s amazing what a couple bad years can do. The cherry on top was putting Chapek in charge. And then Iger thinks he’s coming back as this white night figure. “Hey we are stopping charging for parking at resorts but we are now making Genie+ appear so confusing that you won’t even realize how much money you are spending on stuff that was free!”

The cost of a WDW trip is staggering. Thank god we have DVC membership (I guess ). But even there, we are selling half of our points this year. Members at the GFV no more! Thanks Bob…

Next year we are planning an Italy trip…to the real Italy, not the Epcot version. It will probably be cheaper or similar in cost to a trip to WDW.

We need a change as the shine is really wearing off. I remember going there every year and there were new things being built everywhere (you can question how great they were but at least there was substantial change). Now Iger and Mr. Skinny Jeans quibble over the next nickel and dime opportunity while the competition builds a brand new park down the street. They look foolish at this point.

welcome to the club (and it’s not D23)

 

[JoeCamel]

welcome to the club (and it’s not D23)

Does Magic need a new forum for expat WDW fans?

ETA: or a lounge? With not having to plan and schedule, call and hold and travel there and back we have plenty of time to lounge around.....

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I have to say that after 14 years of devotion to the Mouse, almost blind loyalty that they could do no wrong, the cracks in the armor have finally appeared. And man have they ever.

I used to think that Iger knew what he was doing. It’s amazing what a couple bad years can do. The cherry on top was putting Chapek in charge. And then Iger thinks he’s coming back as this white night figure. “Hey we are stopping charging for parking at resorts but we are now making Genie+ appear so confusing that you won’t even realize how much money you are spending on stuff that was free!”

The cost of a WDW trip is staggering. Thank god we have DVC membership (I guess ). But even there, we are selling half of our points this year. Members at the GFV no more! Thanks Bob…

Next year we are planning an Italy trip…to the real Italy, not the Epcot version. It will probably be cheaper or similar in cost to a trip to WDW.

We need a change as the shine is really wearing off. I remember going there every year and there were new things being built everywhere (you can question how great they were but at least there was substantial change). Now Iger and Mr. Skinny Jeans quibble over the next nickel and dime opportunity while the competition builds a brand new park down the street. They look foolish at this point.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I have to say that after 14 years of devotion to the Mouse, almost blind loyalty that they could do no wrong, the cracks in the armor have finally appeared. And man have they ever.

I used to think that Iger knew what he was doing. It’s amazing what a couple bad years can do. The cherry on top was putting Chapek in charge. And then Iger thinks he’s coming back as this white night figure. “Hey we are stopping charging for parking at resorts but we are now making Genie+ appear so confusing that you won’t even realize how much money you are spending on stuff that was free!”

The cost of a WDW trip is staggering. Thank god we have DVC membership (I guess ). But even there, we are selling half of our points this year. Members at the GFV no more! Thanks Bob…

Next year we are planning an Italy trip…to the real Italy, not the Epcot version. It will probably be cheaper or similar in cost to a trip to WDW.

We need a change as the shine is really wearing off. I remember going there every year and there were new things being built everywhere (you can question how great they were but at least there was substantial change). Now Iger and Mr. Skinny Jeans quibble over the next nickel and dime opportunity while the competition builds a brand new park down the street. They look foolish at this point.

Welcome to the Dark Side. Join me and together we can rule the galaxy.

In all honesty, the dark side is terrible place to be. None of us really like to complain about Disney. I'd much rather be visiting the parks each year and raving about all the great new additions to the parks. I remember back in the early '00s on the last day at the parks I'd be unbelievably bummed. At the beginning of an 8-day trip I'd be saying "only 8 days left in Disney. " I'd be talking about going back before we got off of ME on the way back to the airport. Now I'm on a 14 year hiatus. I hate it. I want to go back, but I refuse until I see massive positive changes.

I'm sad to hear you've joined the group, but it's necessary to vote with your dollars when you've reached a point of dissatisfaction.

 

[GhostHost1000]

Does Magic need a new forum for expat WDW fans?

Still a fan here. AP, multi contract DVC member, many MANY visits over the years…it’s those of us in that category who see all the questionable decisions, trends, and reality at times when we were more blinded wearing pixie dust glasses before.

We’ve been there, we get people who are, we just aren’t there now and know some of them will unfortunately see it like us eventually as well

 

[flyerjab]

Still a fan here. AP, multi contract DVC member, many MANY visits over the years…it’s those of us in that category who see all the questionable decisions, trends, and reality at times when we were more blinded wearing pixie dust glasses before.

We’ve been there, we get people who are, we just aren’t there now and know some of them will unfortunately see it like us eventually as well

That’s the funny part. My wife and I will be there in a month for her 50th. Staying at Riviera on points from our contracts we aren’t selling.

This resort is a happy place for my wife and I. Extremely relaxing, great food, lovely rooms and outdoor areas. One of the best outdoor quiet pools on property. My wife and I have joked how we could retire to that resort.

Now, that being said…I recently saw a video on YouTube of concept art for what was going to be the Venetian Resort on Seven Seas Lagoon when MK was first being built. That resort would have been a wonder just to visit. Waterways with gondolas, Roman ruins, and true immersion built into the structures like the buildings you see in Venice. True, unmitigated Imagineering.

Everything now is under-delivered due to budgeteering. On the flip side, everything is more expensive than ever. Themed experiences are expected to be over-indulgent for a reason. They are transporting you somewhere that you know you are not. They should be reasonably expensive to make and support. OLC understands this. Iger no longer does. Is Pandora beautiful and FoP a great experience? Yes. But all you have to do is go on NRJ to see where the money ran out. Or you can ride Slinky Dog in DHS to see the exact point along the track where Andy’s mom ran out of money and Andy had no more money to decorate his track.

Is attendance down? It is…period. People notice the lack of dedication to this craft we call a theme park. They definitely notice it when they are paying triple of what they used to pay.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Everyone that says they’re “in the group” like Jab…is gonna be “marked” as a hater by the lurkers that think submission is a requirement for “true fandom”

That is not being a FAN of Disney…it’s allowing the evils of ruthless money drive that pollutes/ruins other companies to go unchecked. And that is DUMB.

You have to love it to criticize it. I don’t question that in anyone…

…ok…some.

But not being able to look past one’s 867 day vacation countdown ticker?…or trying to spin a string of movie flops as “not flops” and making excuses for obvious creative mistakes?
Yeah…not on that bandwagon.

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

Everyone that says they’re “in the group” like Jab…is gonna be “marked” as a hater by the lurkers that think submission is a required for “true fandom”

That is not being a FAN of Disney…it’s allowing the evils of ruthless money drive that pollutes/ruins other companies to go unchecked. And that is DUMB.

You have to love it to criticize it. I don’t question that in anyone…

…ok…some.

But not being able to look past one’s 867 day vacation countdown ticker?…or trying to spin a string of movie flops as “not flops” and making excuses for obvious creative mistakes?
Yeah…not on that bandwagon.

I liken this to being a fan of a sports franchise or a friend of a person that you perceive is making questionable decisions. If I disagree with the direction a team is going, do I have an obligation to continue to buy season tickets, attend fan conventions, do all the things that support the financial bottom line of the team in a way that doesn’t make them reassess their direction.

By the same token, say you have a friend that is veering toward self destructive tendencies (Drinking, skipping work, etc). Is being a “good friend” just continuing to indulge these tendencies so as not to cause any conflict? Or is a bit of candid assessment and tough love a more, ultimately empathetic approach?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Is attendance down? It is…period. People notice the lack of dedication to this craft we call a theme park. They definitely notice it when they are paying triple of what they used to pay.

So I’ve had a running 3 day banter with my BIL about the crowds…
they were there 1 day in 2021 and hadn’t been prior since probably 19?
Bought dvc stupidly in 16…without asking me cause that makes no sense. Nobody should buy it after 12-13…but I digress…

Anyway I kept getting “it’s crowded! You lied!” With colorful adjectives for a couple days…
Now I’m getting “these wait times are @&$’!?!…it says 40 and it’s 5…says 75 and it’s 15”

…they all come home to daddy if they listen.

I do think it’s thicker now with NE schools out than it has been for a couple of months.

But still down.

They’re lying about genie. That’s the common sense conclusion. Occam’s razor.

It was given away by summer hotel discounts. So that’s a canary in a coal mine.

But I have to think offsite are 10x more deterred from the parks than on property.

The prices are comparatively outrageous in the present time and space…and if you don’t want to pay $200 a night for pop century…are you really into $140 a ticket and lines or $20-45 in line add on fees? Plus a $60 breakfast?

The management really screwed up…they rode a train of financial excess for over 10 years and forget that it’s possible the train was gonna run out of track.
Actually it was guaranteed.

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

I had this conversation with friends last night at a baseball game. Very poor attendance, but the team is terrible. But it costs you $25-$30 to park. Tickets are $25/pop. Beer is $14. Hot dog $10. For a family of five, that could quickly be a $225-250 dollar night.

Look at concerts. Those ticket prices and fees are unconscionable.

Hotels? We did a road trip recently and the sorts of hotels that would have safely been in the $80s/$90s price point a few years ago (think Holiday Inn Express or Marriotts) are now $150+.

I do think entertainment/travel costs have greatly boomed. Not sure how much of that is pandemic disruption where they had to recoup bottom line, inflation, because travelers/millennials place more emphasis on experiences and willing to pay more, or because the workforce has gotten expensive of find and retain workers - or a bit of all of that. Anyway, as a parent that is always looking for ways to entertain my family, everythig is getting more expensive. As I told the costs to my wife last night, her response was , “well, Disney’s expensive too, but at least you can stretch it out to 12-14 hours and it’s not a terrible baseball team.”

 

[ElvisMickey]

As someone who lives 5 minutes away from Disney Springs, I’m at one of the local Orlando parks pretty much everyday if only for exercise and dinner. I work from home so getting out is a priority and one of the reasons I moved to LBV from 30 miles north after COVID. Anyway, the parks have been all over the place with crowds. Some days busier than others for sure.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I had this conversation with friends last night at a baseball game. Very poor attendance, but the team is terrible. But it costs you $25-$30 to park. Tickets are $25/pop. Beer is $14. Hot dog $10. For a family of five, that could quickly be a $225-250 dollar night.

Look at concerts. Those ticket prices and fees are unconscionable.

Hotels? We did a road trip recently and the sorts of hotels that would have safely been in the $80s/$90s price point a few years ago (think Holiday Inn Express or Marriotts) are now $150+.

I do think entertainment/travel costs have greatly boomed. Not sure how much of that is pandemic disruption where they had to recoup bottom line, inflation, because travelers/millennials place more emphasis on experiences and willing to pay more, or because the workforce has gotten expensive of find and retain workers - or a bit of all of that. Anyway, as a parent that is always looking for ways to entertain my family, everythig is getting more expensive. As I told the costs to my wife last night, her response was , “well, Disney’s expensive too, but at least you can stretch it out to 12-14 hours and it’s not a terrible baseball team.”

My argument why you can NOT equate Broadway/football/Swifty costs to Orlando has always been the same: you have a one time cost/limited duration for those and can budget/justify

Wdw is an Economic assault on most’s
Budgets for 7 days. There’s no cap/all in costs. And when you start talking the stupidity of the dining plan…you’re REALLY overpaying.

The only comp are cruise ships to a week in Orlando. And they BLOW the prices out of the water…all of them except DCL.

I know…I’m just a “hater”…
But I can also add and look at the nuance of details/circumstance

 

[flyerjab]

So I’ve had a running 3 day banter with my BIL about the crowds…
they were there 1 day in 2021 and hadn’t been prior since probably 19?
Bought dvc stupidly in 16…without asking me cause that makes no sense. Nobody should buy it after 12-13…but I digress…

Anyway I kept getting “it’s crowded! You lied!” With colorful adjectives for a couple days…
Now I’m getting “these wait times are @&$’!?!…it says 40 and it’s 5…says 75 and it’s 15”

…they all come home to daddy if they listen.

I do think it’s thicker now with NE schools out than it has been for a couple of months.

But still down.

They’re lying about genie. That’s the common sense conclusion. Occam’s razor.

It was given away by summer hotel discounts. So that’s a canary in a coal mine.

But I have to think offsite are 10x more deterred from the parks than on property.

The prices are comparatively outrageous in the present time and space…and if you don’t want to pay $200 a night for pop century…are you really into $140 a ticket and lines or $20-45 in line add on fees? Plus a $60 breakfast?

The management really screwed up…they rode a train of financial excess for over 10 years and forget that it’s possible the train was gonna run out of track.
Actually it was guaranteed.

We are here as fans, in the depths of these chat threads, clutching our pearls, hoping that BTMRR gets the DL treatment on the third lift hill, or that the outside design of Andy’s Backyard Barbecue had been designed better to hide the backstage building better. Then there is Bob (pick your poison), trying to figure out how to constantly tick the stock price up another $0.10. Maybe an up charge within up charge within an up charge after paying $190 per person for a holiday party. How did we think this would end?

Lower attendance and a bevy of discounts.

You could see Iger setting himself up for his grand retirement. Expansion at all parks and resorts. Marvel as a franchise was unstoppable. Disney+ was on its way. And yes…2…not 1…2 Star Wars expansions on both coasts. Mic drop.

Not as smooth as he had hoped. The mic hit his foot, he leaned over to get it and fell into the orchestra pit. Meanwhile, a moron took his place onstage that ended up being tantamount to the worst kind of PR nightmare. Stock drops, political nightmare ensues, park attendance falls, movies and Disney+ not doing as forecasted. Bob crawls back out of the orchestra, older and no longer Teflon. Roll credits.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Lol…my autocorrect changing “cruise ships” to “crisis shops” might be the dumbest one yet

What the Duck?

 

[hopemax]

Ooh, are we playing fun with budgets again? We just booked a December trip to Paris (never been). For the Disney portion we are staying: Club Level at Sequoia Lodge for 4 nights / 5 days of tickets. Lake view (better view / not standard) All tickets are park hoppers, and CL includes buffet breakfast. We are paying $2660 for 3 people, my Dad is coming.

Plugging in the same dates at Wilderness Lodge, 5 day park hoppers and it comes out $5520 BUT, no availability for club level, and so I had to use just a normal lake view room, and buy breakfast somewhere. So we're looking at at least a $3K savings, which more than covers the Paris portion of the trip ($1500 for 4 nights in a 2-bedroom apartment style hotel).