Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[jpeden]

Sorry what is PIN?

Disney calls them unique offer codes but I think they used to be called PIN (personal identification number) offers and that has kind of stuck as the verbiage around here.

Either way they’re targeted offers sent to groups of people that meet whatever criteria they’re looking at, and aren’t available for the general public.

 

[Grimley1968]

Personal Identification Number. This is sent to specific people for discounts and a number is given as a PIN for them to use to access the discount offer. Marie

Did the use of PIN's decrease for several years? It seems they aren't discussed as much as, say, 20 years ago (or I just don't notice the discussions anymore). If so, are they coming back now?

 

[wannabeBelle]

Did the use of PIN's decrease for several years? It seems they aren't discussed as much as, say, 20 years ago (or I just don't notice the discussions anymore). If so, are they coming back now?

They were once much more popular years ago than in recent memory. As far as coming back, I'm not sure on that one. That information isnt given out by Disney. As Jpeden said, they are used to target specific groups of people, so perhaps this was only for certain DVC members? I have not gotten any official information on this, but if it was for DVC members only, I would not have heard anything. Marie

 

[jpeden]

They were once much more popular years ago than in recent memory. As far as coming back, I'm not sure on that one. That information isnt given out by Disney. As Jpeden said, they are used to target specific groups of people, so perhaps this was only for certain DVC members? I have not gotten any official information on this, but if it was for DVC members only, I would not have heard anything. Marie

It could not have been for just DVC members as we are not DVC. I only mentioned the 11 month window because that is when the villas become available for booking direct through Disney as well and we had to wait until the time period opened to book.

 

[Grimley1968]

Years ago (20 or so), I'd peruse boards like this for the latest PIN offers that people were willing to post, because I never seemed to be in whatever group received PINs. I always considered it to be a preview of at least the discount ceiling of what a public offer might be later. The public offers might come out with similar discounts, but seemed to be tighter on the blackout dates for the discounts. I could be wrong, but I never remember any of the public discounts include dates all the way up through Christmas Day, though maybe PINs did for all I know.

 

[Drdcm]

There’s an WaPo overwhelmingly negative article today on how difficult and expensive it is to go to Disney now. The comments are pretty brutal, but I wanted to share my favorite:

“I was able to recreate the Disney experience recently by placing thousands of dollars in my pocket and vacuuming it out”.

 

[jpeden]

I mean, I read the article and there isn’t anything untruthful about it. It’s extremely complicated and people pay a fortune to not have to figure it out themselves. The cottage industry that has come out of understanding G+ LL, Park Reservations, ILL, and Vq’s (my head hurts from the acronyms) amazes me.

 

[_caleb]

I've noticed that lots of people here like to support their opinions with something like, "that's just a fact."

At this point, Disney seems to have acknowledged that they're just going to keep raising prices until crowds thin out.

I would love to see some cost/benefit analysis for Disney between a full park at $200/person vs. half as many guests at $400/person. I would expect a full park of guests to spend more on food/souvenirs, but with thinner crowds, maybe a half-full park could generate more profit? Maybe people would slow down, be in better moods, and spend more per person?

Fewer guests would require less staffing, maybe lower operating costs, allow more/better interaction between CM's and guests, and would probably result in higher customer satisfaction. It'd be interesting to see where the tipping point might be.

 

[Tha Realest]

I've noticed that lots of people here like to support their opinions with something like, "that's just a fact."

At this point, Disney seems to have acknowledged that they're just going to keep raising prices until crowds thin out.

I would love to see some cost/benefit analysis for Disney between a full park at $200/person vs. half as many guests at $400/person. I would expect a full park of guests to spend more on food/souvenirs, but with thinner crowds, maybe a half-full park could generate more profit? Maybe people would slow down, be in better moods, and spend more per person?

Fewer guests would require less staffing, maybe lower operating costs, allow more/better interaction between CM's and guests, and would probably result in higher customer satisfaction. It'd be interesting to see where the tipping point might be.

I think the last 3+ years have been a massive experiment in this regard. They started out from a drastically reduced baseline in terms of services and entertainment, and have slowly bringing some of that back.

I don’t necessarily begrudge the price increases. One could argue it is a fiscally responsible thing to do. They should seek out the most profit they can. My worry with that approach is the perverse incentives some of those tactics may induce. For example, is any new attraction going to have some form of a ILL cost/benefit analysis? Doesn’t that incentivize more massively budget bloated E-tickets than a few more modest C and D’s that could serve as people eaters? To that point, while G+ and ILL revenue is “newfound money” - is it really, or does it cannibalize spending in merch and food? And while DME going away likely saved a ton of money on the resort side, are those savings washed away by the loss in revenue from low occupancy rates?

 

[JoeCamel]

I think the last 3+ years have been a massive experiment in this regard. They started out from a drastically reduced baseline in terms of services and entertainment, and have slowly bringing some of that back.

I don’t necessarily begrudge the price increases. One could argue it is a fiscally responsible thing to do. They should seek out the most profit they can. My worry with that approach is the perverse incentives some of those tactics may induce. For example, is any new attraction going to have some form of a ILL cost/benefit analysis? Doesn’t that incentivize more massively budget bloated E-tickets than a few more modest C and D’s that could serve as people eaters? To that point, while G+ and ILL revenue is “newfound money” - is it really, or does it cannibalize spending in merch and food? And while DME going away likely saved a ton of money on the resort side, are those savings washed away by the loss in revenue from low occupancy rates?

When you throw out the guest experience weighting of the equation it becomes clear they only want headliners in the parks, tentpoles in the theatres, mastery of the seas and captive premium subs for streaming. It really is a sea change in how the company was run for the first part of it's existence.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I've noticed that lots of people here like to support their opinions with something like, "that's just a fact."

At this point, Disney seems to have acknowledged that they're just going to keep raising prices until crowds thin out.

I would love to see some cost/benefit analysis for Disney between a full park at $200/person vs. half as many guests at $400/person. I would expect a full park of guests to spend more on food/souvenirs, but with thinner crowds, maybe a half-full park could generate more profit? Maybe people would slow down, be in better moods, and spend more per person?

Fewer guests would require less staffing, maybe lower operating costs, allow more/better interaction between CM's and guests, and would probably result in higher customer satisfaction. It'd be interesting to see where the tipping point might be.

I’m ok with them raising prices to lower attendance, I just wish they’d stop eliminating perks and monetizing free stuff while they do it. Being asked to pay a constantly increasing price for a constantly decreasing quality of product is getting old.

I agree there’s a sweet spot though, we spend more time, and money, in the parks when they aren’t so crowded so theres definitely a price point that would profit them more than a park at 100% capacity.

 

[UNCgolf]

I would love to see some cost/benefit analysis for Disney between a full park at $200/person vs. half as many guests at $400/person. I would expect a full park of guests to spend more on food/souvenirs, but with thinner crowds, maybe a half-full park could generate more profit? Maybe people would slow down, be in better moods, and spend more per person?

My guess is they make their biggest profits on F&B sales -- those usually have gigantic margins. I'm not sure half as many guests at double the price would be enough in admission revenue to make up for the lost F&B sales.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

My guess is they make their biggest profits on F&B sales -- those usually have gigantic margins. I'm not sure half as many guests at double the price would be enough in admission revenue to make up for the lost F&B sales.

Yes, part of the genius of their business model is they make it seem fun to spend money while you're in the parks.

 

[Splash4eva]

I’m ok with them raising prices to lower attendance, I just wish they’d stop eliminating perks and monetizing free stuff while they do it. Being asked to pay a constantly increasing price for a constantly decreasing quality of product is getting old.

I agree there’s a sweet spot though, we spend more time, and money, in the parks when they aren’t so crowded so theres definitely a price point that would profit them more than a park at 100% capacity.

Problem is this. The price increase is not lowering attendance imo. Its the product they are delivering.

 

[Figgy1]

There have to be rules every forum has them. I get the censorship thing that's every forum, but I thought there would be rules posted.

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

forums.wdwmagic.com

 

[Figgy1]

Terms and rules

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.

forums.wdwmagic.com

also, recently we've been repeatedly and very politely asked to take any issues with moderation directly to the mods in the form of a PM and not discuss those issues in the threads

 

[_caleb]

I don’t necessarily begrudge the price increases.

I’m ok with them raising prices to lower attendance

I guess I sort of do begrudge the price increases. I love the parks, and I want as many people as possible to experience them. I honestly believe that visits to Disneyland as a kid inspired some things in me that make me approach things with a different sort of creativity than I might otherwise have had. I want that for other people!

I know, Disney is a (publicly-traded) business, and the simple laws of supply and demand point to packed parks as an opportunity to charge more. But I suppose I'd be in favor of Disney implementing a sort of self-imposed pricing "floor" that would keep the parks as accessible as possible (with no pricing "ceiling"). Rather than trying to price people out of the parks to reduce crowds, I'd prefer to see them use what seem like more "Disney" ways to control crowds, like expansion, good design, more entertainment, and many more high-capacity (lower-budget) attractions.

 

[_caleb]

My guess is they make their biggest profits on F&B sales -- those usually have gigantic margins. I'm not sure half as many guests at double the price would be enough in admission revenue to make up for the lost F&B sales.

Yeah, I bet you're right. I have no idea what average guest spending on food and beverage is, but I'm sure it's a major source of profit.

Yes, part of the genius of their business model is they make it seem fun to spend money while you're in the parks.

They do! And it's SO easy when your Magic Band, smartwatch, and phone are also credit cards.

Now that I think about it, I'm a little bit surprised they haven't done more to promote and incentivize food and beverage purchases at the parks, like Eat-around-the-World passports, in-park refillable cups, buy-10-get-one free, etc. The closest thing I can think of are limited-edition churro flavors and popcorn buckets. I used to think they were going to try to balance out crowds by issuing food coupons and specials through MDE/Genie, but I don't think that ever materialized.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I'd prefer to see them use what seem like more "Disney" ways to control crowds, like expansion, good design, more entertainment, and many more high-capacity (lower-budget) attractions.

I'd love to see this too but the castle parks are bursting at the seems, new rides and entertainment can't overcome the limitations of the paths and other pinch points, not to mention the packed roads, sold out hotels, staffing issues, and other issues outside the park gates. In a perfect world they'd build another resort in another state to pull some of the crowds away from CA and FL, and to expand their market, but I don't think it'll ever happen, why spend $ Billions building a new resort when the overcrowding allows them to nickel and dime their loyal guests with schemes like ILL and Genie+ and to charge outrageous rates for their hotels and parking?

Overcrowding is horrible for the guests but allows Disney to overcharge for everything, it's great for them.

 

[_caleb]

I'd love to see this too but the castle parks are bursting at the seems, new rides and entertainment can't overcome the limitations of the paths and other pinch points, not to mention the packed roads, sold out hotels, staffing issues, and other issues outside the park gates. In a perfect world they'd build another resort in another state to pull some of the crowds away from CA and FL, and to expand their market, but I don't think it'll ever happen, why spend $ Billions building a new resort when the overcrowding allows them to nickel and dime their loyal guests with schemes like ILL and Genie+ and to charge outrageous rates for their hotels and parking?

Overcrowding is horrible for the guests but allows Disney to overcharge for everything, it's great for them.

Yeah, I'm obviously speaking as a fan here, but that's exactly the sort of expansion I'm talking about: more parks, more to do at the smaller parks, and something in another state would be great.

I know nickel-and-diming is their strategy, but I think it puts short-term profit ahead of long-term customer loyalty. So the parks are packed and money keeps pouring in, but I want them to be thinking generationally, not quarterly (stock prices). I know someone always says something like, "surely it'll catch up with them eventually." Well, I think one reason Disney isn't doing as well at the box office is that they've squandered a good bit of the long-term loyalty they earned with previous generations by making lots of stuff super accessible (content on TV networks, low ticket prices at the parks) and getting people hooked.