Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[LSLS]

I think the lower quality thing is the most subjective part of this conversation.

In all these pages of "attendance is lower" discussion, no one, except maybe that ONE person, tried to imply that the experience was really worse.

When I suggest that Disney doesn't think their attendance is a problem, that is to also suggest that their guest satisfaction numbers haven't moved much to force them to make any meaningful changes. In fact the discounting would definitely lead me to believe that price is really still the number one factor when determining intent to return.

I think you'd need to quantify a bit. The last time I was there was 4th of July week, and yes, I had a great experience (outside the heat, which is something I was ready for). But, the levels were extremely low, and I can guarantee they made a lot less revenue off that week. I mean, it was great to be able to ride absolutely everything in DHS in 4 hours along with eating at a sitdown and having drinks at Ogas without reservations (though then you start to question paying that much to go to a park you can finish in less than half a day). But 7k under the lowest numbers Disney plans for is not a norm, nor sustainable. Had I gone when it was lower crowds, but there was still a lack of street entertainment and the waits were still 30-90 minutes for everything (and waits for food), no, it would not have been as enjoyable.

 

[el_super]

Sure, there is a lot of subjectivity to quality but there are some obvious changes over the year to things like maintenance, food, and merch that I believe most people see.

That's the thing: I don't think most people see this at all. A lot of fans go into the parks and recognize when something is off, due to the number of times they have been and their interest in the product itself, but that isn't typical behavior for most guests to the parks. They are there to relax, to spend time with the family, to take photos and buy souvenirs. They're not looking what which buildings have faded paint or which pirates aren't moving their arms right. They never have been.

As long as they are providing a safe and comfortable space for families they will always have an audience.

I personally think all of those have improved a bit over their lows a few years back but they are still lacking compared to what we once had.

I do still think things are a little weird with the supply chain recovery and labor force, but it is encouraging to hear things are getting better. I also think the availability of table service restaurants improving is a huge win for the overall food category at Walt Disney World. But restaurant availability and even the quality of food offer is dependent on your attendance levels.

 

[Ayla]

Now to say some nice things… I think the food quality is better and I like the gondola system. I prefer the new Disney springs. I like the concept of early entry, but think it should be an hour.

I agree with all of this, except for food quality. There has been a very noticeable decline in food in the last decade.

 

[Drdcm]

That's the thing: I don't think most people see this at all. A lot of fans go into the parks and recognize when something is off, due to the number of times they have been and their interest in the product itself, but that isn't typical behavior for most guests to the parks. They are there to relax, to spend time with the family, to take photos and buy souvenirs. They're not looking what which buildings have faded paint or which pirates aren't moving their arms right. They never have been.

As long as they are providing a safe and comfortable space for families they will always have an audience.



I do still think things are a little weird with the supply chain recovery and labor force, but it is encouraging to hear things are getting better. I also think the availability of table service restaurants improving is a huge win for the overall food category at Walt Disney World. But restaurant availability and even the quality of food offer is dependent on your attendance levels.

Despite my snark, I see wheat you’re saying.

Only time will tell if their strategy will pay off in the end. Short term gains do not necessarily equate to long term stability.

My fear is that the cost relies on a high degree of disposable income. Eventually things are going to change, because that’s just what happens with economies. Based on history, that will likely happen any time between the next 1-5 years because of economic cycles.

At that point, they will need to rely on people having enough money to still show up and to generate a profit, and the cost may be prohibitive. For the last few years they have been able to benefit from increased disposable income from govt benefits and lack of student loan payments.

They’re making a bet that they think will pay off. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Either way, I’m not putting all my eggs in that basket.

 

[Drdcm]

I agree with all of this, except for food quality. There has been a very noticeable decline in food in the last decade.

Fair enough. Some restaurants have gone downhill IMO (cough cough California grill). But some of the Disney springs places are awesome. I like the new bbq place in Epcot. And the place in pandora at AK. I suppose I have spots I legitimately enjoy at all parks, so I might not be noticing decline elsewhere.

 

[MR.Dis]

I never defined what a family is. There are all types, but the Paradigm still relies on parents (same sex qualify or grand parents who are now the main parents) taking their kids to Disney to enjoy and make great memories. Mind you, while I see this Paradigm breaking, it will take years. So if you are a Disney enthusiast there is still hope that they do course corrections. We can only hope.

The paradigm has changed, no longer is the nuclear family predominant, with only 37% adh

 

[Ayla]

Fair enough. Some restaurants have gone downhill IMO (cough cough California grill). But some of the Disney springs places are awesome. I like the new bbq place in Epcot. And the place in pandora at AK. I suppose I have spots I legitimately enjoy at all parks, so I might not be noticing decline elsewhere.

You are correct about some of the places at DS - I was thinking only of parks/resorts restaurants. DS has the best eateries on property, no question.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Fair enough. Some restaurants have gone downhill IMO (cough cough California grill). But some of the Disney springs places are awesome. I like the new bbq place in Epcot. And the place in pandora at AK. I suppose I have spots I legitimately enjoy at all parks, so I might not be noticing decline elsewhere.

I think quick service overall has gotten better not every place, but there are a lot more options and variety of food and some of it is really good. I think much easier to have a good meal with different offerings at Disney than 10 years ago

 

[networkpro]

I never defined what a family is. There are all types, but the Paradigm still relies on parents (same sex qualify or grand parents who are now the main parents) taking their kids to Disney to enjoy and make great memories. Mind you, while I see this Paradigm breaking, it will take years. So if you are a Disney enthusiast there is still hope that they do course corrections. We can only hope.

Where I gathered my statistic, they didnt use any hetero/ coupling definition, just defining a nuclear family as someone living with a spouse and at least one child. It does speak in terms of long-term cohabitation and a legally binding commitment.

 

[networkpro]

I think quick service overall has gotten better not every place, but there are a lot more options and variety of food and some of it is really good. I think much easier to have a good meal with different offerings at Disney than 10 years ago

Thankfully its no longer McDonalds with Disney prices, and its a wider selection of things to eat for many different diet choices and restrictions. Necessarily, some of it isn't right for everyone's palate.

 

[Andrew25]

I'll defend quick service at WDW. We could be dealing with SeaWorld quality and their atrocious pricing model, or Universal's slow and poor quality of service.

I'm very lucky to consider Satu'li Canteen as a go-to spot for dinner after work as I live nearby, and get a decent meal for only $15

 

[el_super]

I don't know if I'm that ONE person, but I've not only implied but practically shouted that the WDW experience is worse, far worse, than just 15 years ago. When that becomes obvious to a lot of other previously loyal guests, guess what happens to attendance?

What was so obviously terrible about your experience?

My fear is that the cost relies on a high degree of disposable income. Eventually things are going to change, because that’s just what happens with economies. Based on history, that will likely happen any time between the next 1-5 years because of economic cycles.

Their problem initially was pivoting too hard after the last economic downturn. After 2008, they pushed out all sorts of discounting and annual pass benefits to keep the parks full. It devalued their product. At Disneyland, where they switched on the no-interest monthly payment options, people were getting access to Disneyland for about $30 a month.

That level of expectation continue all the way up through 2019. The parks were crowded, and generally miserable, but people prioritized having cheaper admission over having a better experience. Disney was stuck between raising prices to improve the experience, or trying to maintain the no-growth volume based experience they were running. Then the pandemic happened.

So yeah, it will be interesting to see what will happen with the next downturn. My guess is they aren't going to cut back so deeply as they did in 2008. Prices will remain high at a base level, and temporary discounting will be used to fill in the gap. all that discounting will go away when the $60B in additions starts coming in and they will go back to showing growth.

 

[Minnesota disney fan]

I never defined what a family is. There are all types, but the Paradigm still relies on parents (same sex qualify or grand parents who are now the main parents) taking their kids to Disney to enjoy and make great memories. Mind you, while I see this Paradigm breaking, it will take years. So if you are a Disney enthusiast there is still hope that they do course corrections. We can only hope.

I respectfully disagree that it will take several years. Our family has already stopped the paradigm. We don't go anymore, our grown kids don't go anymore, the grandkids say "No way" , and therefore the great grands will not have that yearly disney trip to relate to. But they all say that Universal is where they want to go now for a theme park experience. They also are going to more National parks and the beaches than ever before. So, the wheel has already started turning, IMO.

 

[Grimley1968]

I respectfully disagree that it will take several years. Our family has already stopped the paradigm. We don't go anymore, our grown kids don't go anymore, the grandkids say "No way" , and therefore the great grands will not have that yearly disney trip to relate to. But they all say that Universal is where they want to go now for a theme park experience. They also are going to more National parks and the beaches than ever before. So, the wheel has already started turning, IMO.

I share this experience. We also have found other places to vacation besides always a Disney property. We don't have grandkids yet, but I doubt the most recent trips we had to WDW will inspire our grown daughters to recommence the Disney tradition if and when they have kids of their own, unless they can forget the most recent trips and focus on the more enjoyable ones when they were small.

We've been doing a lot more national parks/beaches vacations as well, when we go as a family. There seems to be a relative stability in the overall value we derive from national parks/beaches, while WDW's value as a vacation destination continues to decline, for us.

I do think there is a lag between Disney's actions that have reduced vacation value, and the response by previously loyal guests to stay away. But that lag may be about over, if attendance is now dropping, if the attendance drop is due to something other than even tougher economic times in the near future.

 

[GhostHost1000]

As long as they are providing a safe and comfortable space for families they will always have an audience.

wow that’s all they need to do? No wonder they keep declining in guest satisfaction, why worry about keeping the park up and returning quality to the guest and their experience.

Just raise prices and provide a safe comfortable space

 

[Nubs70]

After going once/ twice per year for about 10 years, the price has risen in combination with decrease in quality, experience, and convenience to a point where I feel like I'm being ripped off.

I have traded WDW in for 2 weeks in Europe and 1 week in Cancun.

 

[Drdcm]

wow that’s all they need to do? No wonder they keep declining in guest satisfaction, why worry about keeping the park up and returning quality to the guest and their experience.

Just raise prices and provide a safe comfortable space

This individual contradicts their own arguments. They later told me that Disney had to discount heavily in 2008 because they didn’t show up. The point was that it was a mistake to discount, but that’s one hell of an inconvenience when you’re trying to argue that people will show up no matter what.

 

[el_super]

wow that’s all they need to do? No wonder they keep declining in guest satisfaction

Decline in Guest Satisfaction? So what reputable source are you using to come to that conclusion?

This individual contradicts their own arguments. They later told me that Disney had to discount heavily in 2008 because they didn’t show up. The point was that it was a mistake to discount, but that’s one hell of an inconvenience when you’re trying to argue that people will show up no matter what.

Not really a contradiction. You do realize what happened in 2008 that caused an attendance decline and why that wasn't really related to the core experience Disney was offering... right?

 

[Lilofan]

Decline in Guest Satisfaction? So what reputable source are you using to come to that conclusion?




Not really a contradiction. You do realize what happened in 2008 that caused an attendance decline and why that wasn't really related to the core experience Disney was offering... right?

I remember 2008/09 all too well. Many lost their homes , real estate and stock market values free falling and many were laid off from their jobs. I survived the brutal layoffs only to get added workload without increase in pay but at least I was still employed.

 

[Drdcm]

Decline in Guest Satisfaction? So what reputable source are you using to come to that conclusion?




Not really a contradiction. You do realize what happened in 2008 that caused an attendance decline and why that wasn't really related to the core experience Disney was offering... right?

That’s my entire point! My god. I never should have engaged.