Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Disstevefan1]

Their recent dependency on Genie+ revenue creates some complications. If fewer people are at the parks, lines are shorter and the urgency to get Genie+ and ILL decreases... though I guess Disney can always run fewer trains/boats (where possible) to artificially increase wait times...

Good point and is possible. They can run attractions at lower capacity to artificially increase wait times to keep the need for Genie+ and at the same time save costs on staffing; reducing attraction capacity requires less CMs, a win, win for Disney!

 

[bmr1591]

Pretty normal for them. In January, they only had one theater running for Avatar. When I went at the end of April, they had four.

 

[flyerjab]

I'll defend Universal against ridiculous comments by some people who want to do nothing but smear them... but Universal being "cheaper" than Disney is no longer a valid statement outside of table service restaurants. Universal has reached Disney-esque pricing on tickets, in-park dining, and hotel rates. I hate saying this, but 3-4 years ago, Universal was a heck of a value... BUT they haven't been able to adjust park operations to handle the increased demand of visitors... so the experience has become a bit annoying recently. The hotels are a way better value than Disney, but it's no longer on the cheap side. Gone are the days of $100 nightly rates at Cabana Bay - which still till this day I consider a moderate by Disney standards.

Epic Universe will definitely impact attendance at one of the non-MK parks.

That’s interesting. We don’t vacation at Universal nearly as much. I was always under the assumption that the vacation was appreciably less expensive, mainly due to the cost of their resorts.

What is starting to annoy me is that Fastpass was free and Genie+ is far from free. Yet the guest experience has stagnated or declined when considering cost. If each park has continued expanding while older rides were refurbed/plus sec, that would be one thing. But fact is they haven’t been since Genie+ rolled out. Since 2020 we got Rat, Guardians and Tron. That’s pretty much it. In what universe does it make sense to introduce a product that adds anywhere from $75 to $125 a day for a family of 5 when those are the new main additions? I know Iger will argue that demand was that high and competitors were already offering guests this type of product. But this is now at a point where we have seen ILL prices as high as $29. In that scenario, if everyone in my family wanted to ride Guardians, that would be $145 for that ONE ATTRACTION. And this is just the introductory rate for this type of product. What will these rates be 5 years from now? $40 per person per day? They can only go up. They can’t go down or it diminishes the value of the product. When we used Fastpass+, every park had or was going through an expansion. All of them, even DS. More dining overall was added. Resorts were expanded or added. At that time, the value for the park experience was increasing, while Fastpass+ remained free. We are now at a point where there is nothing solid being offered for us to look forward to in the future, and we are being asked to fork over a ton more of our own money to pay for essentially the same park experience.

 

[Disstevefan1]

What is starting to annoy me is that Fastpass was free and Genie+ is far from free. Yet the guest experience has stagnated or declined when considering cost. If each park has continued expanding while older rides were refurbed/plus sec, that would be one thing. But fact is they haven’t been since Genie+ rolled out. Since 2020 we got Rat, Guardians and Tron. That’s pretty much it. In what universe does it make sense to introduce a product that adds anywhere from $75 to $125 a day for a family of 5 when those are the new main additions? I know Iger will argue that demand was that high and competitors were already offering guests this type of product. But this is now at a point where we have seen ILL prices as high as $29. In that scenario, if everyone in my family wanted to ride Guardians, that would be $145 for that ONE ATTRACTION. And this is just the introductory rate for this type of product. What will these rates be 5 years from now? $40 per person per day? They can only go up. They can’t go down or it diminishes the value of the product. When we used Fastpass+, every park had or was going through an expansion. All of them, even DS. More dining overall was added. Resorts were expanded or added. At that time, the value for the park experience was increasing, while Fastpass+ remained free. We are now at a point where there is nothing solid being offered for us to look forward to in the future, and we are being asked to fork over a ton more of our own money to pay for essentially the same park experience.

Sadly, I see NO END to the money grab at the parks.
TWDC need a source of income to pay for "successful" money losing movies, Disney+ and now multiyear lawsuits somehow.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

That’s interesting. We don’t vacation at Universal nearly as much. I was always under the assumption that the vacation was appreciably less expensive, mainly due to the cost of their resorts.

They are still cheaper - plus the Premier resorts give you unlimited express so added value

BUT the gap is closing and once Epic Universe opens it will be interesting to see the price point for their hotels compared to Disney

 

[Nubs70]

Sadly, I see NO END to the money grab at the parks.
TWDC need a source of income to pay for "successful" money losing movies, Disney+ and now multiyear lawsuits somehow.

WDW needs to keep grabbing. If PRGS and or PCGS cannot fall as the are the 2 main KPI's of park health.

 

[Disone]

I'll defend Universal against ridiculous comments by some people who want to do nothing but smear them... but Universal being "cheaper" than Disney is no longer a valid statement outside of table service restaurants. Universal has reached Disney-esque pricing on tickets, in-park dining, and hotel rates. I hate saying this, but 3-4 years ago, Universal was a heck of a value... BUT they haven't been able to adjust park operations to handle the increased demand of visitors... so the experience has become a bit annoying recently. The hotels are a way better value than Disney, but it's no longer on the cheap side. Gone are the days of $100 nightly rates at Cabana Bay - which still till this day I consider a moderate by Disney standards.

Epic Universe will definitely impact attendance at one of the non-MK parks.

I agree with most of this except for the resorts.

For Friday June 30th 3nghts to July 3rd...
Grand Floridian Resort View $567 per night
South Garden Wing at Contemporary $461per night

At Lowe's
Portofino Bay clocks in with the same three nights at $569 per night for garden view and Royal Pacific standard view comes in at $498.

But those rates come with express pass for both guests in the rooms, and that varies in price from 250 per person per day to 270 per person per day. Now you can say that's inflated, and certainly that is an inflated price, but it doesn't change the fact that it's absolutely included in the room rate. You don't get any of that with the Disney prices anymore. So the resort prices still a great deal for universal. Especially when you're staying at their premium properties.

The argument is less strong for the lesser hotels.


$224 per night for Coronado springs vs $234 sapphire falls.

$172 for an All Star vs $155 for one of the Endless Summer hotels.

All the above are the same three nights, June 30th through July 3rd, 2 adults and standard room.

I think in the value category universal still edges out the win. In the moderate category it's a dead heat. And the deluxe category universal wins astoundingly.

 

[pluto101]

We had full intentions on booking a vacation today. After pricing out rooms, tickets, meals, and Genie+, the trip came out to nearly $4,500 for TWO people at a VALUE resort.

I understand that Disney is a luxury experience, but it has gotten to the point where they have begun to price out their target market. We have already seen this with the Galactic Starcruiser, with its recent closing announcement.

When people wonder why the parks are beginning to look empty, it’s because many lifelong fans and average families are no longer able to afford it.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

As far as the crowds at Uni this week. Dockside, which is Uni's most affordable resort, is at about 85% occupancy. Which, for the first official week of the Summer travel season, is surprisingly light.

Also I have been pricing out an August trip to the Keys, and a resort that was charging $700+/night last year now has rooms for $197.

So it's not just Disney.

 

[SomePixieDust]

Going next weekend. Think it’ll be packed by then? I hope not

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Can’t tell if I’m just noticing it more, or are people doing less WDW park days than they used to. Are ticket lengths going down and park ‘skip’ days going up? 3 or 4 day park tickets in trip planning threads used to be rare. Not anymore.

These prices are no joke! A 3 day ticket in Nov is ~$500, 4 day is a bit over $600 and 5 day almost $700. This is before adding hoppers or G+/ILLs.

Just 5 years ago Day 4 added $60 (over 3 day ticket) and Day 5 added only $20.

There’s been a 250% price increase to add Days 4 and 5 I can see why families would choose less park days over $$$$.


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Was this their intention? Parks less crowded, happier guests Less people getting in at the lower costs. How much more money do guests spend when they can flail their arms down Main St without hitting anyone.

Their “strategy” was to retrain all 50-60 million gate clicks a year…and more…to accept those aggressive price hikes and then continue them.

That’s what they tell the brokers in the smoke filled back hallways…

How do I know? I read Blue Ocean Strategy…it’s all part of the “philosophy”

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

We are also still here this week and you can visibly tell (anecdotally) that attendance is down. If Iger and team can’t figure things out in the park space during his two years, it will be interesting to see how the opening of Epic Universe impacts attendance here as well. Overall a more affordable experience at Uni vs. WDW.

I can’t believe how Genie+ had impacted our vacations here. We didn’t go to a park yesterday until 8 PM. DHS has ridiculous wait times posted but you could tell they were inflated. We did RotR, TSMM and Slinkydog all in an hour with wait times of 60, 15 and 100 minutes, respectively. I know I posted this earlier, but we have spent more time at our home resort (Riviera) and DS than any of the parks. And we still haven’t purchased Genie+ on this trip and we have been here since the 27th. Even I, a perennial cheerleader for WDW, am finally seeing this brooding negativity creeping into the experience, which really sucks.

The real problem Disney is gonna have - beyond a slowing “travel economy” - is that they have nothing under construction and Igerism means that they basically are accepting park stagnation and all the offshoot issues that come with it.

Epic universe opening is real change…a couple rollercoasters and a mothballed Hotel nobody went too is not…it’s incremental and the effects dissipate quickly. That’s multiplied by taking 8 years of construction to open 7-8 rides over 4 parks.

Not the way to strengthen your park business

 

[Touchdown]

At Lowe's
Portofino Bay clocks in with the same three nights at $569 per night for garden view and Royal Pacific standard view comes in at $498.

 

[drizgirl]

I agree with most of this except for the resorts.

For Friday June 30th 3nghts to July 3rd...
Grand Floridian Resort View $567 per night
South Garden Wing at Contemporary $461per night

At Lowe's
Portofino Bay clocks in with the same three nights at $569 per night for garden view and Royal Pacific standard view comes in at $498.

But those rates come with express pass for both guests in the rooms, and that varies in price from 250 per person per day to 270 per person per day. Now you can say that's inflated, and certainly that is an inflated price, but it doesn't change the fact that it's absolutely included in the room rate. You don't get any of that with the Disney prices anymore. So the resort prices still a great deal for universal. Especially when you're staying at their premium properties.

The argument is less strong for the lesser hotels.


$224 per night for Coronado springs vs $234 sapphire falls.

$172 for an All Star vs $155 for one of the Endless Summer hotels.

All the above are the same three nights, June 30th through July 3rd, 2 adults and standard room.

I think in the value category universal still edges out the win. In the moderate category it's a dead heat. And the deluxe category universal wins astoundingly.

Plus that Express Pass is for up to 4 people in the room. And it applies for check in and check out day.

 

[Lilofan]

As far as the crowds at Uni this week. Dockside, which is Uni's most affordable resort, is at about 85% occupancy. Which, for the first official week of the Summer travel season, is surprisingly light.

Also I have been pricing out an August trip to the Keys, and a resort that was charging $700+/night last year now has rooms for $197.

So it's not just Disney.

Mid Aug - late Sept is peak hurricane season and makes sense hotel rates are lower. Living through a Cat 3-4 is challenging.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

At Lowe's
Portofino Bay clocks in with the same three nights at $569 per night for garden view and Royal Pacific standard view comes in at $498.

…but you can get a cheap toilet in isle 16

 

[Disone]

Plus that Express Pass is for up to 4 people in the room. And it applies for check in and check out day.

Yes I just did a party of two just for comparative sakes. I believe Lowe's does charge for the 3rd and 4th guests a nominal fee. Also all rates were Florida resident rates.

 

[Andrew25]

Mid Aug - late Sept is peak hurricane season and makes sense hotel rates are lower. Living through a Cat 3-4 is challenging.

HHN actually creates the opposite effect in September with rates increasing during the event. Last year they were much higher than in the summer.

 

[Disone]

…but you can get a cheap toilet in isle 16

I feel flush

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes I just did a party of two just for comparative sakes. I believe Lowe's does charge for the 3rd and 4th guests a nominal fee. Also all rates were Florida resident rates.

Your resorts chart comparisons are cute…wrong…but cute.

The most overpriced hotels in any park market are the Disney moderates. I learned that working at/with the Disney moderates

Now…are the universal hotels with the express pass “cheap”? No…they don’t need to be.

But with the pass the inherent value far exceeds the Disney “deluxes” unless they are on a significant discount. That’s why people do the one day “ghost” reservations at portofino or Royal pacific while STAYING in wdw.

Good effort, though