Insane crowds, more space needed

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I didn't that the Magic Kingdom is not busy. I meant it's not as busy as some were describing (literal gridlock, potentially dangerous situations) outside of parade / fireworks time.

Actually I have seen crowds that have the potential for “minor injuries”...

I’m not saying it’s a big issue...but lack of attraction investment to keep pace with crowd growth, fastpass completely altering the queue dynamic, higher prices/angst, and artificially bartering park hours to create upsell “demand”...is definitely putting unusual strain on the show crowds.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Still would LOVE for them to create a fireworks/nighttime show that can be viewed from anywhere in the park. Each land would have their own digital mapping on surrounding buildings and would feel like a different version of the same show. Crowd levels would then spread out around the park instead of just in the Hub and on Main Street.

They had just that from 1971-2004...they abandoned it for various reasons

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It's Disneyland. Multiple small children. Big huge mass pool of people like sardines. Nightime.

So yeah blame the parent if by chance something goes wrong like the fall over, and you lose their hand, or they just accidentally wonder away in that split second.

It's Disneyland. Not Baghdad.

Disney WORLD...actually

 

[Disstevefan1]

Im 50 yo. Ive been going since I was 10ish. Ive always remembered mainstreet being congested. Stupid congrsted during parades and fireworks.

Agreed, the Magic Kingdom has been overcrowded for decades! And it does seem to get even worse over time! In my opinion, the guest experience has fallen victim to Disneys success.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Agreed, the Magic Kingdom has been overcrowded for decades! And it does seem to get even worse over time! In my opinion, the guest experience has fallen victim to Disneys success.

This....

To go further, sometime during the late Eisner era (my glory days)...they did what amusement operators always do that causes problems: they looked at the books and started convincing themselves “that they really didn’t NEED to add anything this year, five years, 10 years”

There’s a formula that works the best: it’s to add or replace one significant attraction about ever other year. It maintains demand and satisfaction, and it also keeps lesser rides what they were designed to be: lesser demand rides. No 90 minutes for Peter Pan or 2 hours for the dwarfocoaster.

So WDW with for near equal parks should see 4 net additions every 2 years. And that has flatlined over the last 20.

It would have solved a lot of the lag at DAK...and the comparative decline at Epcot and mgm. That’s the main reason why mk is a mess. It’s a problem that compounds itself and will only amplify when they take another ten years off and spend far too much time designing cupcakes.

Because disney is “the best”...doesn’t mean they will alter the fundamental rules. Ferrari’s get pulled over too.

 

[geekza]

Or you can be my mother in law - who subs parades and fireworks because of a 1950’s irrational hatred of rides...
...which means she shouldn’t be in an amusement park in the first place.

I mean, it probably wasn't an irrational hatred when she developed it. Remember that Walt decided to build Disneyland because carnivals and amusement parks were so shady. Heck, you still hear about carnival rides falling apart.

Old notions are hard to dispel.

 

[MaryJaneP]

An answer would not seem to be to create more space to be crowded by the inevitable increase in capacity and supposed room. More space=more people.

Heresy to follow.

1. Eliminate HEA and any regularly schedule Main Street parade. Shoot fireworks over seven seas lagoon. Can you imagine if Illuminations required you to assemble in front of and face Spaceship Earth. Imagine the crowds at Epcot. How about trying to cram crowds for Fantasmic into a unidirectional space that is clearly too small to hold the attendees.

2. Return trees and benches to Main Street and the hub in Magic Kingdom.

3. Raise ticket prices enough to significantly ratchet down attendance.

4. Close Magic Kingdom earlier and make any evening event a hard ticket or at least a FP+ (limited distribution).

5. Limit nights of HEA to only a few and viewing by reservation only.

6. Return to Fantasy in the Sky. Repeat projection part of HEA multiple times (a dozen or so) every night so that it becomes routine, kinda like small world is to practically everyone.

All of the above could significantly reduce the P&R income forecast so you can be relieved that none of them will actually come to pass.

 

[geekza]

Depends. If this is your one time big vacation to Disney, or one every ten years or so - then yes people will attempt to get as much as they can for the high expense they pay, and the fireworks is a big part of the experience.

As someone who is going on his first trip to WDW in over a decade with a wife who has never been, the fireworks show is something that I don't want to miss. Though there are more and more people who go to WDW on a regular basis, I'd still say that, for the majority of guests, it's either their first and only time in the park or they only go once in a blue moon. I get that fireworks and projections aren't everyone's cup of tea. I live in WV and we only see fireworks on rare occasions and they're usually preceded by a redneck shouting, "Hey, watch this!" (I kid...mostly.) I do think that you don't need to pack in like sardines right in front of the castle to enjoy them and you can bet that my wife and I will be among those who hang out afterward and let the crowd die down a bit before heading back down Main Street.

The current show combined with the overcrowding is an issue, though.

 

[geekza]

3. Raise ticket prices enough to significantly ratchet down attendance.

I've seen this time and time again. It won't work. It hasn't worked. People will just expect a lot more for their money and current Disney management hasn't shown that they're concerned with improving the guest experience. (Also, it's a bit of an insult to those of us who aren't fortunate enough to be able to go regularly, but save for years to afford a trip. Just because someone isn't well-off doesn't mean that they should be excluded.)

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I mean, it probably wasn't an irrational hatred when she developed it. Remember that Walt decided to build Disneyland because carnivals and amusement parks were so shady. Heck, you still hear about carnival rides falling apart.

Old notions are hard to dispel.

What’s hard to “dispel” is the insistence I leave the gurgling suitcase at 7 pm (just warming up) to go into a hornets nest of a hellhole to see “wishes” (groan) for the 35th time

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I've seen this time and time again. It won't work. It hasn't worked. People will just expect a lot more for their money and current Disney management hasn't shown that they're concerned with improving the guest experience. (Also, it's a bit of an insult to those of us who aren't fortunate enough to be able to go regularly, but save for years to afford a trip. Just because someone isn't well-off doesn't mean that they should be excluded.)

Their goal is not...nor will ever be...to decrease attendance.

It will always be to increase daily expenditures and attendance.

...keep drinking the sand, folks.

 

[wdwfan757]

We were there also.
Great weather and lines....
I did take us 1.5 hours to get to our car after fireworks though.
To be fair we were at MK the day HS had a massive power failure and everyone at Studios came to MK for the evening.
It was nuts.

Yeah! I think it was on Saturday when one ferry was down, I made the mistake of getting in the ferry line thinking it'd be moving through at normal speed and I think it took about an hour and a half to get to TTC. And we even sat through Once Upon a Time thinking that would thin the herds a bit.

 

[geekza]

Their goal is not...nor will ever be...to decrease attendance.

It will always be to increase daily expenditures and attendance.

...keep drinking the sand, folks.

100% correct. They aren't building Galaxy's Edge to drive people away. All of the new attractions (and lodging) that we see going into WDW are there to lure even more people into the parks. If GE is a success (and I can't see how it ever wouldn't be), the crowds in all the parks will increase and the cost of going to WDW will follow suit.

 

[DisneyDoctor]

You are right though that different things have different meanings to people.

And look, I’ve been frustrated at WDW on occasion. Once, when I had every right to be, I was expressing it to a Swan Resort manager before taking a breath and saying “look, I know this is not your fault...”

Everyone is different, but I wouldn’t say in front of my child that a whole trip is ruined, possibly ruining the memory for him/her. I’ve had a trip where I went halfway across the globe, with one particular sight/experience in mind as my “big moment”. And for a few reasons, it wasn’t. I stewed on it for maybe 30 minutes until the next incredible thing, and just said to myself that I wouldn’t let that one thing bring down the rest of the day. And instead, there were several other experiences from that trip I’ll never forget, possibly made better by how unexpected they were. But to close down because of one thing, I mean I’m guilty of doing that at times, but for that families sake, even tho they were awful that night I hope they didn’t let that ruin their trip. I really don’t.

I subscribe to the same POV as you, my friend. It would be disheartening to witness a blowup like that, especially at WDW.

 

[DisneyDoctor]

...they’re probably from my neck of the woods

Orlando?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Orlando?

Jersey...via Orlando and Pittsburgh.

Take your pick

 

[Chef Mickey]

Certain times are absolutely scary and dangerous. The worst I've ever seen was around 10:00 PM on May 24, 2013, which was the 24 hour event to kick off #MonstrousSummer. The parade/fireworks had just ended so loads of people were trying to leave, but Epcot and Hollywood Studios had also just closed so people were also trying to force their way in for the all nighter event. It was nighttime rush plus rope drop all at the same time. I was legitimately scared that people were going to get seriously injured.

I was there that day. It was so crazy, I walked in and walked out less than an hour later. It would have been quicker, but it took probably 45 minutes to get through main street.

 

[Chef Mickey]

No, summer is nothing like Christmas. Not even close.

In the summer, everyone is out of school but they're spreading their vacations out over 10-12 weeks. At Christmas, everyone is out of school the exact same two weeks. The reason to avoid summer is the weather, not the crowds.

Christmas/New Years are on a different level. Avoid.

Summers are crowded, but I really feel like they are pretty much standard even compared to other randoms months. Even end of August, September, and October are all about the same now.

Besides July 4th, Memorial Day, and maybe a few random weekends...crowds are pretty consistent all the time now.

All this being said, another park doesn't really help the situation. We already kind of tried that with Animal Kingdom....and it closed at 5PM for years. The way people flock to MK is the real problem, particulalry at night. MK needs to be built out with a couple new areas and most importantly, more stuff to do around the park. Why they would ever close Snow White, Mr. Toad, or any ride is a total mystery to me. DL does a better job at packing more attractions into their space. WDW has A LOT of space, but they consistently fail to utilize it and offer reasons to stay at other parks.

Really, the biggest problem is Main Street and MK at night in general.

Solution 1: Make AK, EPCOT, and HS world class again and stay open later to give people reasons to stay.

Solution 2: Completely pack MK with attractions make a second Main Street somehow, perhaps open the part they use for Halloween Party entry as a new "on stage" area.

Only after all 4 parks are completely firing do you consider expanding to a 5th park.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I am not a special needs person and 2+ hour wait for an attraction is too much for me to handle. your son is not alone. I don't think the Disney bean counters care about crowd levels and the negative impact on the magic---- all they see is $$$$$. There was time we would on a spur of the moment pack up the boys and head to WDW not any more crowds have put stop to that. The wife and I plan and plan and plan for the lest amount of people and even then its a flip of the coin.

I don't see wait times as the issue. It's the people just walking around in the common areas too much . I've never waited 2 hours for anything at MK and I don't think anything except 7DMT is really ever a 2 hr wait.

 

[TheGuyThatMakesSwords]

An answer would not seem to be to create more space to be crowded by the inevitable increase in capacity and supposed room. More space=more people.

Heresy to follow.

1. Eliminate HEA and any regularly schedule Main Street parade. Shoot fireworks over seven seas lagoon. Can you imagine if Illuminations required you to assemble in front of and face Spaceship Earth. Imagine the crowds at Epcot. How about trying to cram crowds for Fantasmic into a unidirectional space that is clearly too small to hold the attendees.

2. Return trees and benches to Main Street and the hub in Magic Kingdom.

3. Raise ticket prices enough to significantly ratchet down attendance.

4. Close Magic Kingdom earlier and make any evening event a hard ticket or at least a FP+ (limited distribution).

5. Limit nights of HEA to only a few and viewing by reservation only.

6. Return to Fantasy in the Sky. Repeat projection part of HEA multiple times (a dozen or so) every night so that it becomes routine, kinda like small world is to practically everyone.

All of the above could significantly reduce the P&R income forecast so you can be relieved that none of them will actually come to pass.

There is an element here that, while VERY UNPOPULAR, works:
3. Raise ticket prices enough to significantly ratchet down attendance.

Yup, basic supply and demand. DEMAND is way too high - time to further adjust DEMAND with serious ticket admission prices. And one HAS to go after Park Tickets - else huge Hotel price increases will simply motivate folks to drive in, from offsite.

So two unpopular suggestions?

1) RAISE Daily Park Admission Price: Monitor Daily REVENUE, not "Park Attendance". Fewer people, more Dollars... shoot for lower crowd levels while staying Revenue Neutral, until you find the REAL "Park Price Point". Right now? It's too low. This is why too many people are seeking too few goods.

2) I was going to say RAISE Parking costs.... but if WDW executes 1) correctly? This should not be necessary.

All personal opinion - I'm not necessarily right, no one else is necessarily wrong. We are both DVC Owners and AP Holders. If WDW went down this road? WE would be paying MORE. Perhaps a LOT more, for Park Entry. Just us - willing to DO this, just to end the daily Mob Scene .

We all love WDW. But folks? It's being loved to DEATH .