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Iger and Chapek Livid With Lucasfilm
- Thread starter WDW Pro
- Start date
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
The product has been bad.
This”debate” is just like 2005.
Not trueLet's just be honest here. Star Wars fans pretty much dislike anything except The Empire Strikes Back.
Star Wars fans just want something semi coherent within the IP
Not the Manhattan project
Tom P.
Well-Known Member
Perhaps.
I consider myself a Star Wars fan, but admittedly a more casual one. For hardcore fandom, I am a Star Trek guy.
My wife and I watched The Rise of Skywalker over the weekend for the first time. I enjoyed it. Thought it was a good film.
But that's about as far as I've analyzed it. If it were a Trek film, I'd probably pick it apart. But I was content to just enjoy it and not think much more about it.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
This is more or less my point. Even if the First Order was supposed to be a smaller group, Starkiller Base torpedoes that entirely. The movie basically tells you it's a massive, powerful organization because of that alone.
The supplementary materials may say otherwise but the vast majority of people are going to be using the movies alone as their basis.
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Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
Yeah...I’m a Star Wars guy who has enjoyed a lot of the character development of Star Trek over the years...particularly ds9
Big fan of Ron Moore material and the Meyer/nimoy lead films.
Rise of Skywalker made zero sense to me...as little as 8 in a frustrating, intersecting plane. Disney has been a mess. Frankly.
But I’m starting to see the benefits in D+ and the serial opportunities at development.
LFL has not ability to make a film at this point. What’s their score out of 5(movies)? Honestly?
New blood/direction before films is my suggestion.
DS9 is the best of Star Trek post original series.
Pixie VaVoom
Well-Known Member
I wish somebody would. He is like Teflon !! Nothin sticks
Tom P.
Well-Known Member
Tough call for me. I grew up on TNG and still have quite a fondness for those characters. But DS9 is definitely the most well-written and well-developed series of the bunch.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
I think TNG has the best characters, and it has some of the best (and arguably the best) episodes as well. It just also has some absolutely terrible episodes.
I don't think it's easy to compare the two, though, with DS9 becoming serialized. Serialized shows generally have a week to week advantage over non-serialized shows in terms of development, writing, etc., which is why TNG has individual episodes that are as good or better than anything in DS9, but also has those absolute skippable clunkers because they don't affect anything else going forward.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
Very close for me.
TNG has the better acting performances with Stewart and Spiner...in particular
But DS9 had the better characters with Kira, Odo and Quark.
Dukat and Garark were also the best developed, supplemental recurring characters maybe in all of tv history.
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Screamface
Well-Known Member
No, you're missing the point, The Last Jedi is a film about Star Wars not about the story being told. If of course by function does do a bit of that, but it's not the priority.
Do you really think Rian sat down at his desk and just happened by coincidence to write Rey going on a simplified version of Luke's story? Of course not. The whole "subversion" element is because we know the story. The film is about taking what you expect in something like Star Wars, but doing it differently.
Rian's discussed this many time. He created DJ to be a character you think is a guy like Han Solo, you expect him to be the rogueish bad boy, with a heart of gold. Then he turns out not to be. It's about subverting. When these ideas are the priority the writing suffers and you get things such as Finn and Rose ending up in jail for a parking ticket. Locked in a cell with someone with all the skills they need who also has the cell door key. It's not, "where does the story go." It's simply moving onto the next idea the writer wanted to explore. The film is full of these jumps.
Poe is meant to be the hero, who defies orders, you as the audience know this trope, expect him to be right. Subversion is that he's not right. The film is driven by these ideas, little explorations. It's not the story that is driving the events of the film. Which is why so many fans hated it, story matters to them.
This also means the events aren't earned. Over the course of a week, in-universe Rey has now gone from not knowing the Force of the Jedi's were real. To basically becoming a Jedi with no training, teaming up with the bad guy to defeat The Powerful Supreme leader. Does that many any sense from a story perspective? Does it make sense in Star Wars? Do you honestly think Rey going on a super-fast ultra simplified version of Luke's three-film, multi-year journey, came from anywhere other than deliberately putting her on that path?
The story and logic is sacrificed to do this. The good thing about my analysis is that it explains why people like the film and why people dislike the film. The film simply wasn't prioritised to create the next bold and exciting chapter in the story. It was about making a somewhat meta, deconstruction on what Star Wars is. Which should not have been done for a SAGA film and the backlash speaks to that.
We now are only 5 years into this new Star Wars canon and Lucasfilm employees are now saying that it's all fake, cannon doesn't matter, chose what you want to believe is canon, which is because of how badly they have screwed it up by having no one in charge of the story.
Imagineer45
Active Member
My simple TLJ take:
It is a great individual movie. It is a terrible Star Wars movie.
It is a great individual movie. It is a terrible Star Wars movie.
Darth Snips
Well-Known Member
I know I’m gonna regret getting involved in this but...
That is NOT what happened.
Please read the entire thread.
I get so tired of people hearing one sentence, getting outraged, and turning it into a “scandal” that sweeps through the fan base and no one ever bothers to figure out what the hell was actually said.
Matt was just responding to the question “Is X from the EU canon?” He made the point that, although continuity and canonicity is important to him because it’s his job, maybe the fan base obsesses over it too much. He just said that if you love a story from the EU (Heir to the Empire, Darth Plaugueis, KOTOR, etc.) then don’t worry about whether it’s canon or not. Just go ahead and love it. The only point was that fans should enjoy what they want to enjoy and not stress about whether it’s still canon.
But Twitter is going to do what Twitter does. Everyone saw the phrase “It’s all fake anyway” and decided to pitch a hissy fit.
peter11435
Well-Known Member
I love Star Wars. That said, without nostalgia, the majority of them individually are terrible movies.
Joesixtoe
Well-Known Member
Subversion is great for story telling. But when all you do is subvert, then you aren't subverting.
erasure fan1
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Rouge one and the Mandalorian are absolute proof that fans don't hate everything.
By the end of last jedi, all the "subverting" had the opposite effect. It became extremely predictable what was going to happen.
mhaftman7
Well-Known Member
I will preface this statement with I have not read the majority of this thread. I apologize if I’m just regurgitating information. That being said...
Episodes 7, 8, and 9 ridiculous just based on the fact that they make episodes 1-6 completely invalid. When it was just 4-6, the story was about Luke, but when 1-3 came out, it made 1-6 a story of the rise, fall, and salvation of Anakin. A true saga. Then 7-9 came out and said EVERYTHING he did was moot. Palpatine’s essence survived and he sacrificed his life for nothing. What? Then we are calling the 9 film collection The Skywalker Saga when the final three films had a total of three ACTUAL Skywalkers for less than a third of the time? Then the “hero” lies about her lineage? Ugh!
I’m okay that SPOILER ALERT Han died in TFA, but having Ben kill him was unnecessary. Have him sacrifice himself in a non-MF ship to save Ben or Rey. It was okay for SPOILER ALERT Luke to die in TLJ, but Leia survived being exposed to deep space? Leia should have been on the ship to make the sacrifice for the Resistance. That would’ve given Rey, Finn, and Poe the stature that Leia, Luke, and Han had going into ROTJ. That would’ve also given Ben the internal conflict (the loss of both parents) that Anakin had that turned him good. Ben is a blood Skywalker and would have RISEn to the occasion. You end with Rey and Ben on Tattoine, Rey preggers, staring out to the suns setting, and a pod race occurring in the distance.
Episodes 7, 8, and 9 ridiculous just based on the fact that they make episodes 1-6 completely invalid. When it was just 4-6, the story was about Luke, but when 1-3 came out, it made 1-6 a story of the rise, fall, and salvation of Anakin. A true saga. Then 7-9 came out and said EVERYTHING he did was moot. Palpatine’s essence survived and he sacrificed his life for nothing. What? Then we are calling the 9 film collection The Skywalker Saga when the final three films had a total of three ACTUAL Skywalkers for less than a third of the time? Then the “hero” lies about her lineage? Ugh!
I’m okay that SPOILER ALERT Han died in TFA, but having Ben kill him was unnecessary. Have him sacrifice himself in a non-MF ship to save Ben or Rey. It was okay for SPOILER ALERT Luke to die in TLJ, but Leia survived being exposed to deep space? Leia should have been on the ship to make the sacrifice for the Resistance. That would’ve given Rey, Finn, and Poe the stature that Leia, Luke, and Han had going into ROTJ. That would’ve also given Ben the internal conflict (the loss of both parents) that Anakin had that turned him good. Ben is a blood Skywalker and would have RISEn to the occasion. You end with Rey and Ben on Tattoine, Rey preggers, staring out to the suns setting, and a pod race occurring in the distance.
Know your rouges...
Rouge One............................................................................Rogue One
