If Walt Disney died in 1986 instead of 1966 how do things change?

Walt Disney1955

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
So he lives until 1986 and is still working on projects up until his death. Same thing happens with Roy, he dies in 1971 still, two months after Disney World opens. But Walt hangs around and works on the company 15 years after this. What happens with Epcot? How vastly different would it be and would it have been more successful? Or less? Is there a chance there is California Adventure sooner than 2001? Is there the foundation for DHS to be built in 1989? And how does the core of the parks change, if any?

Bottom line, are things better?

My personal opinion that when it comes to innovation and imagination it definitely is. When you think of the non-IP attractions at Disney they mostly came from the mind of Walt Disney. In 1964 with the World's Fair he did not look like he was slowing down and brought in three different attractions to the parks that had nothing to do with his movies (Mr. Lincoln, Small World, Carousel of Progress). I would suggest we would see more of this sort of thing. From a business side of things I know how much more money the company would make as that was never his motivation, but I think he would have a lot left in the tank for 20 years to play with.
 

wdwfan4ver

Well-Known Member
There would've a lot of differences.

I don't see the Epcot that opened in 1982 happen since Walt's vision of Epcot was not a theme park. I am saying that because Walt at the time of his death already had a plan Epcot and it was not a theme park to my understanding. That has been common knowledge for decades. I first know about Walt's Vision of Epcot back in 1991 due to a Walt Disney World 20th anniversary special I watched.

What Walt wanted with Epcot was Epcot actually being a city in Florida.

I have a link to back Walt wanting Epcot being a city in Florida.

I think it very possible that Walt's vision of Epcot would bankrupt the company. Even if didn't, I don't see the Walt Disney Company being as big as player in the theme park industry.

Walt already was going to do Magic Kingdom and that is it for theme parks for Florida despite all that land. The reason is Walt couldn't do his Epcot project without doing a theme park. What would be in Magic Kingdom might've been different due I believe Walt didn't have attractions planned out for Magic Kingdom at the time of his death or not a lot of them.

Disney California Adventure wouldn't happen before Walt died.

What I am painting is Florida's tourism would be much different and the theme park industry in Florida. I think Tokyo Disneyland happening with Oriental Land company would be a possibility.
 
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Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating subject. Great idea!

I have to agree with the above to a large extent. Things for TWDC would've been incredibly different. From all the documentaries I've seen and articles I've read, Walt was a pretty stubborn guy meaning he would've wanted it his way despite the cost, or whether it was a winning idea. Like others, I think EPCOT would've been a disaster. Since Walt passed, EPCOT was realized as a more practical option... a theme park. As a city, I don't think it would've survived. One of the documentaries I've watched mentions how so many of his trusted advisors tried and tried to talk him out of his vision of a real city, but he wasn't listening.

MK might've been better than it is though. Think about all the rides stuffed into DL and its footprint is much smaller than MK. I think with all the extra land, Walt would've insisted that MK have many more rides than DL. That's just my guess tho. Who knows if we'd have AK or HS. My guess is probably not because EPCOT would've been such a disaster. Sadly, I think Walt's passing probably was the best thing for the Disney company at the time. That said, I think it's far worse now than it should be so who can tell.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating subject. Great idea!

I have to agree with the above to a large extent. Things for TWDC would've been incredibly different. From all the documentaries I've seen and articles I've read, Walt was a pretty stubborn guy meaning he would've wanted it his way despite the cost, or whether it was a winning idea. Like others, I think EPCOT would've been a disaster. Since Walt passed, EPCOT was realized as a more practical option... a theme park. As a city, I don't think it would've survived. One of the documentaries I've watched mentions how so many of his trusted advisors tried and tried to talk him out of his vision of a real city, but he wasn't listening.

I’ve often wondered how different our world (not just WDW) would be had Walt lived to open Epcot as originally planned.

Much of it probably wouldn’t have worked but I suspect it would have changed urban planning as we know it.

Prior to DL opening it was known as “Walt’s folly” and was predicted to fail, instead it ended up changing the theme park business, his “folly” of Epcot could have had the same far reaching consequences. Sadly we’ll never know.
 

Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
I’ve often wondered how different our world (not just WDW) would be had Walt lived to open Epcot as originally planned.

Much of it probably wouldn’t have worked but I suspect it would have changed urban planning as we know it.

Prior to DL opening it was known as “Walt’s folly” and was predicted to fail, instead it ended up changing the theme park business, his “folly” of Epcot could have had the same far reaching consequences. Sadly we’ll never know.
Utopian urban plans are disaster…

Private ones? On a budget or looking for corporate charity?…jeez. It would be the subject of sarcastic YouTube videos now
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
Utopian urban plans are disaster…

Private ones? On a budget or looking for corporate charity?…jeez. It would be the subject of sarcastic YouTube videos now
If I'm not mistaken, Musk is planning one outside of Austin TX and has already acquired over 5 sq miles of land to do it... Snailland I think he calls it? Weird dude, and of course an incredible egomaniac. There's too many of those in this world, but I guess if you're that rich, it's hard not to be.
 

Doberge

True Bayou Magic
Premium Member
Obviously not everything Walt touched turned to gold early but it reached a point when he had way more successes than failures, and I think he would have eventually pushed harder for stuff that would have been way more difficult to implement. If Walt had continued without Roy I think he would have faced more pushback from eventual Roy replacements, because I think Roy gave Walt a lot more room to run with ideas than a successor would have. I think it may have ended up comparable to Michael Eisner losing Frank Wells.

I want to have faith that things would have still turned out well but I can't shake that I believe Walt would have overspend and eventually been pushed out of his own company with a little less aura to the legacy.

But Walt also made a career proving people wrong so what do I know? 😄
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
but I can't shake that I believe Walt would have overspend and eventually been pushed out of his own company with a little less aura to the legacy.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think Walt would've tarnished his own legacy. When I think of Walt's passing, all I can think of is this sketch (below) in the paper when he passed. It's immortal and expresses the loss of a legend. Had he stuck around past his prime and through potential failures, he might not have been so beloved. His passing was so sad, although it was before my time.

In comparison, do any basketball fans fondly remember Jordan's years with the Wizards? I grew up watching MJ, and watched zero games of him in a Wizards uniform. That was horrific. Walt never crossed that line thankfully.
Walt Disney dead miami news sketch.jpg
 

Walt Disney1955

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think Walt would've tarnished his own legacy. When I think of Walt's passing, all I can think of is this sketch (below) in the paper when he passed. It's immortal and expresses the loss of a legend. Had he stuck around past his prime and through potential failures, he might not have been so beloved. His passing was so sad, although it was before my time.

In comparison, do any basketball fans fondly remember Jordan's years with the Wizards? I grew up watching MJ, and watched zero games of him in a Wizards uniform. That was horrific. Walt never crossed that line thankfully.
View attachment 704908

Interesting take on Walt and Michael Jordan on the Wizards. If I had to make a comparison, Jordan sinking that final shot in the championship game in 1998 NBA final against the Jazz and then retiring after that was the perfect ending. Sort of like Seinfeld. He went out on top. Walt dying in 1966 easily falls into this category. He was right on top of his career. WDW had broken ground, Disneyland had been going 11 years, there were still great Disney movies well into the 1960s and Disneyland had just added the attractions from the 1964 World's Fair. Stuff like Pirates was finished under his watch. Jungle Cruise was the last movie made under his watch if I recall and it had that Disney touch to it that the other movies since haven't had, certainly not today. Country Bear Jamboree was in its pretty raw stages then but it was an idea under him, as was Haunted Mansion. So he certainly left his mark and it makes you wonder what could have been. Because we know how stagnant the animated feature films got after he died to the point where Roy Disney Jr. had to save it. So in a way seeing Walt die in 1966 is a lot like seeing Cary Grant retire in his prime, even Johnny Carson leaving the Tonight Show at the time he did is a good comparison. Right on top and to this day still peerless.
 

Walt Disney1955

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here is the thing I am thinking people are underestimating. I myself am skeptical of how Walt's vision of Epcot would be. But one thing Walt never stopped doing was working. He failed at things and crumpled it up and started over. He did this all of the time. I doubt he would have clung to something that was a failure, it wasn't in his nature. I think without Roy it is possible Disney takes a hit financially with Walt not having his brother reign him in with things. But who knows really. He went against the grain all of the time and did the impossible. In 1971 if Magic Kingdom opens up with Epcot it would have been pretty huge, I think. That land that Walt had would be a blessing, something he didn't have with Disneyland. I believe that MK is better utilized. I think it would be unanimously better than Disneyland had Walt oversaw it. Roy did a good job, don't get me wrong, but Walt was the visionary, he would have wanted so much more in there with that extra space. Instead we mostly come to an agreement that Disneyland is still the best theme park ever built. No one has matched it since. So I think underestimating him isn't always the wisest idea because no one has been able to do what he did 57 years after his death.

Disney as it did had some trying times in the 1970s and 1980s. This may have still happened with Walt around, specifically not knowing how Epcot succeeds. But I just can't see how the great theme park innovator of all-time would just give up and not constantly be thinking of new ideas all of the time. And he had more hits than misses, so.............
 

muddyrivers

Well-Known Member
If Walt died in 1986, I highly doubt we would have seen Eisner become CEO nor Frank Wells join Disney. Much of the stuff a lot of us love came from that Disney Decade brought on by Eisner and Wells. Not to mention, as others have said, Disney would have likely gone bankrupt far before that point. Remember, Roy was the money man and seemed to always bail Walt out of a financial jam when Walt pressed ahead with what he wanted done. If Roy had died and Walt continued, I doubt anyone else would have been able to say no to Walt or make the deals necessary to finance Walt's visions.

While it's not a great thought, I think this alternate version of history would have been a lot more negative than what ended up transpiring.
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
Here is the thing I am thinking people are underestimating. I myself am skeptical of how Walt's vision of Epcot would be. But one thing Walt never stopped doing was working. He failed at things and crumpled it up and started over. He did this all of the time. I doubt he would have clung to something that was a failure, it wasn't in his nature. I think without Roy it is possible Disney takes a hit financially with Walt not having his brother reign him in with things. But who knows really. He went against the grain all of the time and did the impossible. In 1971 if Magic Kingdom opens up with Epcot it would have been pretty huge, I think. That land that Walt had would be a blessing, something he didn't have with Disneyland. I believe that MK is better utilized. I think it would be unanimously better than Disneyland had Walt oversaw it. Roy did a good job, don't get me wrong, but Walt was the visionary, he would have wanted so much more in there with that extra space. Instead we mostly come to an agreement that Disneyland is still the best theme park ever built. No one has matched it since. So I think underestimating him isn't always the wisest idea because no one has been able to do what he did 57 years after his death.

Disney as it did had some trying times in the 1970s and 1980s. This may have still happened with Walt around, specifically not knowing how Epcot succeeds. But I just can't see how the great theme park innovator of all-time would just give up and not constantly be thinking of new ideas all of the time. And he had more hits than misses, so.............
Yep. I pretty much said the same thing. MK would've been a much better park, and likely would've been the far superior park of the two (MK & DL). That was his reason for creating the MK in FL... to make it better. With roughly 60% more land for the park, I have no doubt he would've succeeded at that. If I'm not mistaken his vision of EPCOT included a theme park at the far northwest end of the property, EPCOT being roughly were it ended up being built, but rather than a theme park, EPCOT would've been a town center with a sky, and have been surrounded by supporting lands, housing, farms. Not sure which was the first phase of the project though. I'm not sure if he would've built MK first, or the city. Had he started on the city first, perhaps MK is never built. Who knows, but I do think that the theme park was phase 1.

He was trying to create his own utopia... a "Disney World" you might say. 🤣 I just don't think it would've ever succeeded, and it more likely would've completely bankrupted him. His vision was admirable, but I think what he was trying to create isn't the type of thing you break ground on and create from the bottom up in a few years. It's something that started small, grows, and then flourishes over decades at least. For a single person (from a funding perspective) to try and create it from scratch in a few years would've been impossible. Just my opinion though.
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
So he lives until 1986 and is still working on projects up until his death. Same thing happens with Roy, he dies in 1971 still, two months after Disney World opens. But Walt hangs around and works on the company 15 years after this. What happens with Epcot? How vastly different would it be and would it have been more successful? Or less? Is there a chance there is California Adventure sooner than 2001? Is there the foundation for DHS to be built in 1989? And how does the core of the parks change, if any?

Bottom line, are things better?

My personal opinion that when it comes to innovation and imagination it definitely is. When you think of the non-IP attractions at Disney they mostly came from the mind of Walt Disney. In 1964 with the World's Fair he did not look like he was slowing down and brought in three different attractions to the parks that had nothing to do with his movies (Mr. Lincoln, Small World, Carousel of Progress). I would suggest we would see more of this sort of thing. From a business side of things I know how much more money the company would make as that was never his motivation, but I think he would have a lot left in the tank for 20 years to play with.
I want to dream EPCOT would a have been a community of tomorrow and not just a theme park, but I think Walt would have been forsed out of TWDC, a la Steve Jobs.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Obviously not everything Walt touched turned to gold early but it reached a point when he had way more successes than failures, and I think he would have eventually pushed harder for stuff that would have been way more difficult to implement. If Walt had continued without Roy I think he would have faced more pushback from eventual Roy replacements, because I think Roy gave Walt a lot more room to run with ideas than a successor would have. I think it may have ended up comparable to Michael Eisner losing Frank Wells.

I want to have faith that things would have still turned out well but I can't shake that I believe Walt would have overspend and eventually been pushed out of his own company with a little less aura to the legacy.

But Walt also made a career proving people wrong so what do I know? 😄
If Walt had lived longer and technology hadn't ended the need for companies to support communities to test their creations and to spread the word, it might have worked briefly like Celebration did until people decided that they didn't want to spend that kind of money for what what essentially a do as I say type of community run by a company.

Once that support would be lost from both industry and the people, there would no longer be a Walt Disney Company. I remember the day he died and how sad everyone seemed to be. He was our childhood and our influence for many years, but EPCOT, the original would have been a failure with way to many possible problems then one person could possibly handle. Plus his expertise was in entertainment and that is where he proved everyone wrong many times, but his strong point was Imagination, with controllable situations like drawing pictures on paper. Providing a free living environment involving people, not so much. I think it is a safe bet to say that I am glad he died with that dream in his head instead of a failure of colossal magnitude and you are not wrong. Disney was on the brink of failure even after the EPCOT we know was established and that is without spending he money that the original would have cost.
 

ppete1975

Well-Known Member
He would have lost passion and interest in the parks and either gave them to someone else to run or they would have stayed the same, EPCOT would have taken all of his time until the mid 70s. It would have been totally different. It would have been a city for the betterment of mankind. They would have worked on propulsion, medicines, cancer research, alzhieimers, tried to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, and huge into computers. World showcase would be neighborhoods where these scientists lived. The only theme park aspect would have been a tram ride kind of thing taking you around the park, and tours that you could see the scientists working (elevated behind glass as to not bother them), and big led scrolling boards about all of their latest discoveries (CANCER CURED TODAY, COMPUTING POWER DOUBLED).
It would have failed as a theme park and closed off to the public eventually. But the research would have put us 5-10 years ahead of where we are if not more. Scientists would flock from all over the world to work together here, without the bureocracy and access to huge grants, and the best equipment possible. Companies pay for it after that in return for the technology and new drugs.

Walt early 80s loses complete interest in it after about 3 years of completion and moves on to something else. Lillian is alive till 1997 so maybe he retires and sees the country, but he probably would do something totally outside of what we would expect. He would have had nothing to do with animation or movies since 1970 at the latest. Theme parks as soon as the magic kingdom opens. Walt liked to dream, so who knows what those dreams would have lead to next.

In my perfect world he would have set up his will for all of his money and the profits of Disney (maybe sold maybe not) to go to Epcots furthering research. Kind of like Howard Hughes (although Hughes wasnt done on purpose)
 

Pepper's Ghost

Well-Known Member
He would have lost passion and interest in the parks and either gave them to someone else to run or they would have stayed the same, EPCOT would have taken all of his time until the mid 70s. It would have been totally different. It would have been a city for the betterment of mankind. They would have worked on propulsion, medicines, cancer research, alzhieimers, tried to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, and huge into computers. World showcase would be neighborhoods where these scientists lived. The only theme park aspect would have been a tram ride kind of thing taking you around the park, and tours that you could see the scientists working (elevated behind glass as to not bother them), and big led scrolling boards about all of their latest discoveries (CANCER CURED TODAY, COMPUTING POWER DOUBLED).
It would have failed as a theme park and closed off to the public eventually. But the research would have put us 5-10 years ahead of where we are if not more. Scientists would flock from all over the world to work together here, without the bureocracy and access to huge grants, and the best equipment possible. Companies pay for it after that in return for the technology and new drugs.

Walt early 80s loses complete interest in it after about 3 years of completion and moves on to something else. Lillian is alive till 1997 so maybe he retires and sees the country, but he probably would do something totally outside of what we would expect. He would have had nothing to do with animation or movies since 1970 at the latest. Theme parks as soon as the magic kingdom opens. Walt liked to dream, so who knows what those dreams would have lead to next.

In my perfect world he would have set up his will for all of his money and the profits of Disney (maybe sold maybe not) to go to Epcots furthering research. Kind of like Howard Hughes (although Hughes wasnt done on purpose)
I agree this would've been Walt's goal... his dream, but the reality would've been far different. Building a city like he wanted, employing the people to do these wonderful things in the name of research, etc. All that would've left him penniless. His wealth wasn't on the scale that would've been required. Estimates have his worth in the $100M-$150M range when he passed. Today that would be short of $1B, or possibly just more than. There's no way he could do this without a massive infusion of big money which would've dictated how and when he could spend that money. That said he'd have hated the whole venture due to not having carte blanche. His utopian city would've died on the vine unrealized, and his parks would likely have been sold off in the loss. Our entertainment world would be very different. He would've needed Musk-type money to even try what he wanted, and even then I think it'd have been tough to realize.

"Cancer cured today"... I'm sorry, but I have no words. I take your point, but scientists have been trying to cure cancer with government funds all over the world, and nearly 60 years later the best we've got is putting a poison in your veins in hopes of killing the cancer before the poison kills you. That, and microwaving you in hopes of shrinking the bad cells. Walt's dreams were massive and mostly wonderful. Realizing those dreams is a much different thing.

I also agree with @Goofyernmost and his comments about a "do as I say type of community". That was absolutely Walt's plan... dictating how people would live in his city. That would've failed on a grand scale. That's CCP kinda stuff. Who would voluntarily want to live in that atmosphere, and those who do aren't the greatest minds in the world to do things like cure cancer.
 

StantonZ

Active Member
There were multiple (famous) people who died (either naturally or otherwise) in the 60's for which I think you could hypothesize bifurcated timelines (or alternate realities): Kennedy (both), Disney, and MLK. I can't think of another decade since with that sort of loss.
As for "life after Walt", not sure the Disney company would have been as successful given the fact that the (scaled down) version of EPCOT almost bankrupt the company...and Eisner/Wells may go down as the most dynamic duo to ever run the Disney company.
 
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