How WDW Co. spins ...

[UncleMike101]

Yup, there is the rub for ya! Unfortunately there appears to be 5-10 people waiting to take your place when you don't go. I mean, there is no downtime anymore.
I'm doing ok, and right now my family is lucky to go every year, but who knows? With the dollar at what it is now, and prices going higher and higher, it wont be long before people like us are priced out too. Will it matter? Probably not.

Don't sell short the power of individuals to affect a companies policies.
As I mentioned in another thread, the customers of Coca Cola forced the company to bring back the original Coke formula after tens of thousands of us pitched a royal fit to them about the change.
It only took 77 days for the Coke management to reverse course and bring back the old formula.
A little righteous indignation can work wonders.
After all it's our money supporting them, not the other way around.

 

[Rutt]

Don't sell short the power of individuals to affect a companies policies.
As I mentioned in another thread, the customers of Coca Cola forced the company to bring back the original Coke formula after tens of thousands of us pitched a royal fit to them about the change.
It only took 77 days for the Coke management to reverse course and bring back the old formula.
A little righteous indignation can work wonders.
After all it's our money supporting them, not the other way around.

Unless things start going south in the attendance figures, nothing will change. A couple hundred of us on a message board do not represent the majority of Disney visitors. At the end of the day, unless you can show me anything at all indicating that the general public is upset with TDOs current path, it's really nothing but a small group of hardcore people using old 'back in my day' sentiment.
Is there a large groundswell I'm missing somewhere?

I wish my pennies made a difference but they don't. Someone will take my place.

 

[Rutt]

If you have seen a difference in the last 3 imagine what those of us who have been visiting for 30 years have seen as a decline.

Oh I can imagine. Sadly again, small minority at this point.

 

[UncleMike101]

Unless things start going south in the attendance figures, nothing will change. A couple hundred of us on a message board do not represent the majority of Disney visitors. At the end of the day, unless you can show me anything at all indicating that the general public is upset with TDOs current path, it's really nothing but a small group of hardcore people using old 'back in my day' sentiment.
Is there a large groundswell I'm missing somewhere?

I wish my pennies made a difference but they don't. Someone will take my place.

Well......
You're the "General Public" and you're upset.
The "Back in my day" sentiment can be just one of the available effective levers that can be used to bring about change.
Iger is my age and knows exactly where someone like me is coming from when we say, "You're trashing the good "stuff" at Disney".
And we wouldn't use the word "stuff"
I'm not saying he'll care, but he'll know where we're coming from.
Fear of losing the trust of the BoD is a powerful incentive for someone like him to make some conciliatory changes to policies.
And....
Coping a "I don't count" attitude is a certain way to fail at whatever you're trying to accomplish.

"Do or do not! There is no try."
Yoda

 

[Goofyernmost]

Don't sell short the power of individuals to affect a companies policies.
As I mentioned in another thread, the customers of Coca Cola forced the company to bring back the original Coke formula after tens of thousands of us pitched a royal fit to them about the change.
It only took 77 days for the Coke management to reverse course and bring back the old formula.
A little righteous indignation can work wonders.
After all it's our money supporting them, not the other way around.

The one difference is that there were a lot more people that drank Coke then attend WDW on any given day. Also the taste of Coke is somewhat unique and people remember it. It is a singular memory! The majority of guests at WDW only vaguely remember what they saw the last time they were there, if they have been there at all.

 

[Rutt]

Well......
You're the "General Public" and you're upset.
The "Back in my day" sentiment can be just one of the available effective levers that can be used to bring about change.
Iger is my age and knows exactly where someone like me is coming from when we say, "You're trashing the good "stuff" at Disney".
And we wouldn't use the word "stuff"
I'm not saying he'll care, but he'll know where we're coming from.
Fear of losing the trust of the BoD is a powerful incentive for someone like him to make some conciliatory changes to policies.
And....
Coping a "I don't count" attitude is a certain way to fail at whatever you're trying to accomplish.

"Do or do not! There is no try."
Yoda

Nope, I'm one of the few on here every day watching for Pandora updates, about DHS changes, wondering whether My MK card game is gonna be the next thing value engineered out.
The General public I refer to doesn't know or care that Slinky dog looks shorter in the last picture released.
I'm not saying we can't make a difference, we just need more help.
Of course as I mentioned before, I still think despite Iger, WDW is still and better family vacation that anything else I can afford.

 

[UncleMike101]

The one difference is that there were a lot more people that drank Coke then attend WDW on any given day. Also the taste of Coke is somewhat unique and people remember it. It is a singular memory! The majority of guests at WDW only vaguely remember what they saw the last time they were there, if they have been there at all.

OK.....
Coke is an integral part of American life.
I submit that Disney is also.
But each person drinking Coke likely spent less than a buck a day on the product back then.
About $350.00 a year if you were a hardcore Coca Cola fan.
As I recall Coca Cola lost millions in just 77 days because of the dislike for their New Coke.
A substantial amount back then.
Disney visitors can easily spend $250.00 per day, per person, to enjoy the parks and at around 145,000 people on a good day in the four parks that's about 36.25 million dollars per day.
The loss of just 10%, 14,500 people, or 3.62 million dollars a day, or $1,323,125,000 (with a B) per year, is no small potatoes even to Disney.
I submit that the potential exists for at least a 10% drop in attendance if the current wave of cutbacks and value depreciation doesn't stop.
Word is out across America that Iger, et al, have sunk a monstrous amount of money into overruns and waste at the Shanghai park and that the results are cuts in the quality, and scope, of customer experiences at the American parks.
It may not be this quarter, but a drop in attendance is likely this year as a result of the current mismanagement.
I have several corporate investments but none of them are in Disney or it's subsidiaries.

And I remember our first visit to WDW, and every subsequent one, vividly.
It could be that I'm in the minority for having that ability but somehow I doubt it.
P.S.
Someone should double check my calculations.
It's late and I'm tired......

 

[lazyboy97o]

Don't forget that New Coke tested better than Coke.

 

[UncleMike101]

Don't forget that New Coke tested better than Coke.

The average Coke drinker didn't take the silly taste test.
As I read in the papers after the "stuff" hit the fan at Coca Cola, the people selecting participants for the test picked the profile of a Pepsi drinker in order to make the unfounded claim that more people liked the New "stuff".
Pepsi drinkers liked the New "stuff" because it was sweeter than Original Coke.
The Coke drinking Publics reaction to the overly sweet "stuff" trumped the polls and destroyed any chance of New Coke succeeding in the Market Place.
BTW: The Mexican Coca Cola made with cane sugar is much better than the corn syrup American version.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The average Coke drinker didn't take the silly taste test.
As I read in the papers after the "stuff" hit the fan at Coca Cola, the people selecting participants for the test picked the profile of a Pepsi drinker in order to make the unfounded claim that more people liked the New "stuff".
Pepsi drinkers liked the New "stuff" because it was sweeter than Original Coke.
The Coke drinking Publics reaction to the overly sweet "stuff" trumped the polls and destroyed any chance of New Coke succeeding in the Market Place.
BTW: The Mexican Coca Cola made with cane sugar is much better than the corn syrup American version.

New Coke was tested against Coke by Coke drinkers. Significant resources went into ensuring the success of the project. Even Robert Woodruff, who was no longer running the company, was asked to sign off on the project. It was all built on the very same sort of satisfactions surveys that justify how Disney runs their parks.

 

[UncleMike101]

New Coke was tested against Coke by Coke drinkers. Significant resources went into ensuring the success of the project. Even Robert Woodruff, who was no longer running the company, was asked to sign off on the project. It was all built on the very same sort of satisfactions surveys that justify how Disney runs their parks, it just has;t happened so suddenly.

Had that been the case it wouldn't have failed so miserably and rapidly.
I had been a lifelong Coke person and after trying the New "stuff" I decided it was time to declare war on the management at Coca Cola.
Far too many of the people involved in that fiasco had their necks out a mile and weren't above shenanigans to make their stance look valid.
As it is with Disney today.
I've seen the best, and worst, in people and it's my sad experience that when large sums of money are involved the worst oozes to the surface.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Had that been the case it wouldn't have failed so miserably and rapidly.
I had been a lifelong Coke person and after trying the New "stuff" I decided it was time to declare war on the management at Coca Cola.
Far too many of the people involved in that fiasco had their necks out a mile and weren't above shenanigans to make their stance look valid.
As it is with Disney today.
I've seen the best, and worst, in people and it's my sad experience that when large sums of money are involved the worst oozes to the surface.

The data was all there. It was all good. It didn't fail because of shenanigans. The executives at Coca-Cola weren't trying to undo their history and were well aware of the huge gamble they were taking. The problems arose from their methodologies, being too obsessed with being certain and having hard data to prove their point. A blind taste test though is out of context for how people actually think about and consume beverages. It's not quite Disney's problems (which most definitely do include massaging data), but it shows the error with rushing to the data to support something that is not all about data.

 

[UncleMike101]

The data was all there. It was all good. It didn't fail because of shenanigans. The executives at Coca-Cola weren't trying to undo their history and were well aware of the huge gamble they were taking. The problems arose from their methodologies, being too obsessed with being certain and having hard data to prove their point. A blind taste test though is out of context for how people actually think about and consume beverages. It's not quite Disney's problems (which most definitely do include massaging data), but it shows the error with rushing to the data to support something that is not all about data.

Agreed.....
I believe we're making the same argument from different perspectives.

 

[Cesar R M]

Unless things start going south in the attendance figures, nothing will change. A couple hundred of us on a message board do not represent the majority of Disney visitors. At the end of the day, unless you can show me anything at all indicating that the general public is upset with TDOs current path, it's really nothing but a small group of hardcore people using old 'back in my day' sentiment.
Is there a large groundswell I'm missing somewhere?

I wish my pennies made a difference but they don't. Someone will take my place.

If the block of people complaining gets sizeable to the point that disney's BS PR machine cant stop. It WILL matter.

 

[AEfx]

But those on once in a lifetime trips don't see worse service. They have no idea what Disney was in the past. And from this Canadian's point of view anyway, there is nothing that gives you the full experience Disney does for the dollars you pay. (He'll even Great Wolf is really creeping up there cost wise but is nowhere close to the WDW experience).

Trust me, I get what you're saying. I miss the little things that have disappeared even since only three years ago when I first took my boys. But I think people like those in these boards are very much in the minority and Disney is probably a long way off of worrying about falling just yet.

But here's the rub - and why it matters past those visits.

Those people aren't going home and raving about the service, the experience, the high quality of CM's, the amazing dining experiences...and all the "little" things that made WDW special.

That's the true failure of MM+ - it was designed for repeat, regular visitors at the same time that things have been declining (and failing to compensate with significant additions) has greatly reduced the repeats and "we go every year" types who have been either priced out, find the experience continually losing quality, or simply "bored" out because of the stagnancy.

We are already at the point that would have been absolutely unheard of even a half-decade ago - in the public eye, Disney isn't the sole top dog in quality anymore. Universal is seen as having just as quality experiences - plus gets the added benefit of having lots of new/shiny. The past decade of the parks has been all about eeking more out of less, and Disney simply had too big of a chip on it's shoulder and no longer is the far and above only true theme park experience in the world.

You are correct - the money is still rolling in to the parks, and they must think they are going to be able to do these new outrageously priced "event-lets" (what used to be called "standard operating hours") or they wouldn't have tried...but there really is going to be a finite number of those folks who are going to continue to put up with that stuff in large numbers. And we have a generation of kids growing up now that see Disney and Universal on the same playing field, and winning in the attractions arena, who in ten or fifteen years will have kids of their own and becoming the decision makers.

I hope to goodness Star Wars helps - and I think it will - but until I am walking onto working attractions, I'm taking sips of breath because I just can't hold it on a hope.

 

[ford91exploder]

But here's the rub - and why it matters past those visits.

Those people aren't going home and raving about the service, the experience, the high quality of CM's, the amazing dining experiences...and all the "little" things that made WDW special.

That's the true failure of MM+ - it was designed for repeat, regular visitors at the same time that things have been declining (and failing to compensate with significant additions) has greatly reduced the repeats and "we go every year" types who have been either priced out, find the experience continually losing quality, or simply "bored" out because of the stagnancy.

We are already at the point that would have been absolutely unheard of even a half-decade ago - in the public eye, Disney isn't the sole top dog in quality anymore. Universal is seen as having just as quality experiences - plus gets the added benefit of having lots of new/shiny. The past decade of the parks has been all about eeking more out of less, and Disney simply had too big of a chip on it's shoulder and no longer is the far and above only true theme park experience in the world.

You are correct - the money is still rolling in to the parks, and they must think they are going to be able to do these new outrageously priced "event-lets" (what used to be called "standard operating hours") or they wouldn't have tried...but there really is going to be a finite number of those folks who are going to continue to put up with that stuff in large numbers. And we have a generation of kids growing up now that see Disney and Universal on the same playing field, and winning in the attractions arena, who in ten or fifteen years will have kids of their own and becoming the decision makers.

I hope to goodness Star Wars helps - and I think it will - but until I am walking onto working attractions, I'm taking sips of breath because I just can't hold it on a hope.

THIS. Sadly I think Star Wars is too little too late. Disney should have built a SW land years ago they have had the park rights for years long before the LucasFilm purchase. Look what happened when Disney bought LucasFilm SWW went down in scope and quality until they were axed

 

[ANJ]

All of you bring up excellent points. I think @AEfx pretty much nails it. hese "new" guest that are once in a life time will notice but not know what they are seeing. I think some guest will simply justify their visit because of the amount of money they spent. Because it was so expensive it must be quality. Then there will be those that go home and say " I spent all that money for that ! " I think we all can agree that Disney has made visiting the parks even more complicated. Even when visiting WDW was a quality experience your visit still needed to be well planned out. I think this is one huge mistake Disney has made. Sure there are uber planners that love that kind of stuff and obsess over it. I contend that the average AMERICAN guest just wants to go and relax. How many of us has said " I need a vacation from going on vacation to WDW" ? Disney has made the experience even harder.

Even the first time guest will wonder about the value. IMO the whales are a fickled bunch. They can afford to go anywhere they want to. Also IMO WDW will become yesterdays news for this bunch. Its always a game of one-upmanship with that group. The word spreads quickly among them.

Its going to be an accumulative effect, it took Disney decades to build up the brand. I think damage has already been done. Look us tht are discussin it now. We might be only a small group but we have friends that know us as the go to Disney people. We can not with good conscience recommend a trip right now. Don't underestimate word of mouth.

 

[Rutt]

But here's the rub - and why it matters past those visits.

Those people aren't going home and raving about the service, the experience, the high quality of CM's, the amazing dining experiences...and all the "little" things that made WDW special.

That's the true failure of MM+ - it was designed for repeat, regular visitors at the same time that things have been declining (and failing to compensate with significant additions) has greatly reduced the repeats and "we go every year" types who have been either priced out, find the experience continually losing quality, or simply "bored" out because of the stagnancy.

We are already at the point that would have been absolutely unheard of even a half-decade ago - in the public eye, Disney isn't the sole top dog in quality anymore. Universal is seen as having just as quality experiences - plus gets the added benefit of having lots of new/shiny. The past decade of the parks has been all about eeking more out of less, and Disney simply had too big of a chip on it's shoulder and no longer is the far and above only true theme park experience in the world.

Who says they aren't? I have yet to hear a first timer come home and tell me anything but amazing things and how they need to go again.

Is there a link somewhere showing dissatisfaction amongst first timers?

I'm not gonna touch the Universal thing as that is very much a matter of opinion and not for this board.

. We can not with good conscience recommend a trip right now.

Why can't we? I recommend it all the time. I also tell them ways to make sure they get to do all the things they want to do, how to get their fastpasses, how to book the restaurants they want (if they want to) and tell them the things we love and the things we can do without. I don't bother with whats gone (why would I, its not there anymore). I tell them to go expecting crowds of course, but also courteous service, smiles, and stories they will never forget. For the majority of people, Disney is still awesome.

I'll leave it at this, before joining this board I was all about the magic. Didn't know the stuff I was missing. It was all good.
The other day I was talking with my wife and mentioned (in a nasty tone) 'Did you know that the Mine Train was supposed to be longer??? They cut back on it to save money. Like seriously, Disney cut it to save money."
My wife's response? "You rode it three times last time we were there. Did you enjoy it?"
Me: Yes
Wife: "Then who cares if its shorter? If nobody had told you it was shorter, would you have cared? No, so why complain now?"

 

[FigmentJedi]

THIS. Sadly I think Star Wars is too little too late. Disney should have built a SW land years ago they have had the park rights for years long before the LucasFilm purchase. Look what happened when Disney bought LucasFilm SWW went down in scope and quality until they were axed

That's because Kathleen Kennedy and other Lucasfilm top brass hated Hyperspace Hoopla and the mashup characters that were staples of SWW. You can't take a franchise you're trying to reboot seriously if you have Goofy going around dressed as Darth Vader and have a day's festivities end on something like a Skywalker Mother-Daughter twerk team.

It's also why this thing remains frozen in carbonite in the Disney Vault.

 

[Mike S]

That's because Kathleen Kennedy and other Lucasfilm top brass hated Hyperspace Hoopla and the mashup characters that were staples of SWW. You can't take a franchise you're trying to reboot seriously if you have Goofy going around dressed as Darth Vader and have a day's festivities end on something like a Skywalker Mother-Daughter twerk team.

It's also why this thing remains frozen in carbonite in the Disney Vault.

That new stage show is totally fine though, right?