alissafalco
Well-Known Member
I wish as well
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Horizons
- Thread starter Corylancaster
- Start date
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Horizons didn't go because it was out of date. Like you said, to my knowledge no families currently live in outer space, no families live under the sea in colonies, oranges are not harvested by hovering machines controlled from a tower and even though video conferencing is real at this point, it is hardly the norm for most people. It went because there weren't enough of those of you that loved it to keep it a viable attraction when something better could be in it's place. Plus it didn't have a sponsor (that was the biggy). Clothing our of date? How? I don't remember anyone ever wearing that type of clothing in my life. What never was cannot be outdated.
Honestly if the films used in the "choice" ending of Horizons were of any real quality, that might have been a major attraction "Plus". With all the complaining we hear about the quality of the projection at Soarin, if they were the same as Horizons that whole blue building would currently be a storage location for Frozen dolls. Our early memories are very selective and tend to downplay the less then stellar and focus in on what we remember as spectacular. In all candor, I loved Journey into Imagination, but, if I think back to it the only thing that really sticks in my mind is the circular stage with Dreamfinder and Figment and, of course, One Little Spark, at the beginning. The rest was a snooze fest. Selective memory is hard to combat.
sshindel
The Epcot Manifesto
Correcting a couple things. Starting small.
I've said it before, I even said it today in another venue, but the time difference between 1983 and 1950 (when Horizons came out and when the scene in Horizons was depicting jetpacks) was 33 years. The time difference between today and 1983 is 32 years (almost 33).
The vision of the future given in Horizons could itself be a scene in Horizons.
Now, since we agree that a lot of the futuristic technology highlighted still doesn't happen today, I think we agree that a lot of the future vision in Horizons could maintain it's relevance. I'd argue that what we think our future will be today is vastly different than what it was in 83. Still, I think that one thing that shows up as very obviously out of date is in the clothing in Horizons. That does not look like something we'd put out there today for what we think our future will look like. It is one of the more outdated parts of the attraction, the rest actually holds up pretty well still, though again, I'd argue that bringing back the original attraction would be a step backwards and not forwards.
If this is the case (which I'd argue it was not) we'd have a better attraction in it's place, which we do not.
To argue the "Horizons didn't draw people" argument, I'll put out the following. Between 1987 and the mid-90s, Epcot lost somewhere north of 2 million annual visitors. The major argument I hear when speaking of Horizon's popularity is that "it never had a line". Now, what impact would 2 million less customers in total have on an omnimover? Back of the envelope math shows that Horizons likely could have had a capacity around 2200/hour ( 184 cars, 3 riders per car, one car every 5 seconds). A people-eater like that would suffer drastically from a reduction of 2 million people a year from it's peak. Again, back-of-the-envelope math puts that at around 5480 less people per day (assuming an average disbursement of people across every day of the year, which we know is not true, meaning some times of the year would be fewer, some more).
The problem was EPCOT wasn't drawing people. A whole larger problem, one which I wish someone out there on the internet were diving deeply into.
You will likely receive a much more visceral reaction from others based on your last statement, but let's just say I disagree with you greatly. The attraction in total, from message, to story, to execution, was pure wonder. I'm not going about this by selective memory, I've put a lot of thought into this in the past year or so.
I will however give you that your opinion is yours, so I cannot argue that your opinion is wrong, however I'd be willing to bet it is in the minority by a massive margin.
If you remember Horizons, the entire first act was visiting what people's view of The Future (capitalized) was during different historical time periods. What was thought of as a viable future in the 1800s is vastly different than what was thought of in the 1950s, a point well made by Horizons.
I've said it before, I even said it today in another venue, but the time difference between 1983 and 1950 (when Horizons came out and when the scene in Horizons was depicting jetpacks) was 33 years. The time difference between today and 1983 is 32 years (almost 33).
The vision of the future given in Horizons could itself be a scene in Horizons.
Now, since we agree that a lot of the futuristic technology highlighted still doesn't happen today, I think we agree that a lot of the future vision in Horizons could maintain it's relevance. I'd argue that what we think our future will be today is vastly different than what it was in 83. Still, I think that one thing that shows up as very obviously out of date is in the clothing in Horizons. That does not look like something we'd put out there today for what we think our future will look like. It is one of the more outdated parts of the attraction, the rest actually holds up pretty well still, though again, I'd argue that bringing back the original attraction would be a step backwards and not forwards.
If this is the case (which I'd argue it was not) we'd have a better attraction in it's place, which we do not.
To argue the "Horizons didn't draw people" argument, I'll put out the following. Between 1987 and the mid-90s, Epcot lost somewhere north of 2 million annual visitors. The major argument I hear when speaking of Horizon's popularity is that "it never had a line". Now, what impact would 2 million less customers in total have on an omnimover? Back of the envelope math shows that Horizons likely could have had a capacity around 2200/hour ( 184 cars, 3 riders per car, one car every 5 seconds). A people-eater like that would suffer drastically from a reduction of 2 million people a year from it's peak. Again, back-of-the-envelope math puts that at around 5480 less people per day (assuming an average disbursement of people across every day of the year, which we know is not true, meaning some times of the year would be fewer, some more).
The problem was EPCOT wasn't drawing people. A whole larger problem, one which I wish someone out there on the internet were diving deeply into.
You will likely receive a much more visceral reaction from others based on your last statement, but let's just say I disagree with you greatly. The attraction in total, from message, to story, to execution, was pure wonder. I'm not going about this by selective memory, I've put a lot of thought into this in the past year or so.
I will however give you that your opinion is yours, so I cannot argue that your opinion is wrong, however I'd be willing to bet it is in the minority by a massive margin.
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danyoung56
Well-Known Member
From what I'd read, there was a large sinkhole underneath the Horizons building, and it would have cost really big bucks to save it if it were at all possible to do so.
Aside from that, has Disney EVER resurrected an attraction that it had canceled? They brought back the subs in DL, but they didn't really go anywhere and the show building was still there. For an attraction like Horizons to come back, Disney would need to completely rebuild a building, put in the ride system, and populate it with dozens of AA figures, most of which don't exist anymore and would have to be built from scratch. No, it just ain't gonna happen.
Aside from that, has Disney EVER resurrected an attraction that it had canceled? They brought back the subs in DL, but they didn't really go anywhere and the show building was still there. For an attraction like Horizons to come back, Disney would need to completely rebuild a building, put in the ride system, and populate it with dozens of AA figures, most of which don't exist anymore and would have to be built from scratch. No, it just ain't gonna happen.
sshindel
The Epcot Manifesto
The only sinkhole was in Disney's commitment to Epcot and it's imagination.
Mission Space: another disappointment under Carly Fiorina's disputed legacy at HP!
The Mighty Tim
Well-Known Member
I liked Horizons. But I also like Mission: SPACE
Tis an old rumor with no truth to it.
horizons82
Well-Known Member
I just can't help myself from posting due to my absolute love of the original ideas behind the original EPCOT and the amazing and inspiring attractions it had. While I still go to Epcot today, it really can't hold a candle to its early form.
Horizons was my all-time favorite attraction. I hate to even think how much time in my life I've spent listening to audios and watching videos of ride-throughs.
As far as the out-of-date comments...I don't think the ideas within Horizons would be out-of-date by today's standards, but the look and "production" aspect of it would be. Kind of like the original Star Trek TV series...the ideas are still futuristic, but the props, sets and its "presentation" look outdated compared to current sci-fi shows/films. And while I would agree with this to a point, I'd still take a dated-looking Horizons over so much of what Epcot is currently filled with any day!
I often read posts asking "what attraction would you bring back?", etc. While I'd love to have specific attractions and older versions of certain attractions back, I realize that things do have to change. Unfortunately, the updates and changes at Epcot have forgotten to include the original intent of the park that made it so unique and special. So while I'd love to have certain attractions back, what I sincerely wish is that the message and meaning from those original attractions would make their way back into any updated/new attractions at Epcot.
Horizons was my all-time favorite attraction. I hate to even think how much time in my life I've spent listening to audios and watching videos of ride-throughs.
As far as the out-of-date comments...I don't think the ideas within Horizons would be out-of-date by today's standards, but the look and "production" aspect of it would be. Kind of like the original Star Trek TV series...the ideas are still futuristic, but the props, sets and its "presentation" look outdated compared to current sci-fi shows/films. And while I would agree with this to a point, I'd still take a dated-looking Horizons over so much of what Epcot is currently filled with any day!
I often read posts asking "what attraction would you bring back?", etc. While I'd love to have specific attractions and older versions of certain attractions back, I realize that things do have to change. Unfortunately, the updates and changes at Epcot have forgotten to include the original intent of the park that made it so unique and special. So while I'd love to have certain attractions back, what I sincerely wish is that the message and meaning from those original attractions would make their way back into any updated/new attractions at Epcot.
sshindel
The Epcot Manifesto
^this
Though I would say that I do have an answer to the "what attraction" question. It's Imagination, though a hopefully technologically updated version. I just flat out don't trust them to ever come close to capturing the essence of that pavilion again. They've proven multiple times that they fail when they try and remake Imagination (or any pavilion I guess for that matter), but Imagination is the worst example. I'd rather them bring back the original than have a 3rd crappy version put in. I don't trust them to build a non-crappy version, so I default to saying the original.
180º
Well-Known Member
If there ever was, then there still is, and Mission: SPACE is screwed.
Yes let's get it straight. Horizons went purely because Eisner refused to pay for a sweeping update without a sponsor. Simple as that. No point in debating opinion no matter how right or wrong they may be.
And of course there was no sinkhole either. Again.
danyoung56
Well-Known Member
No need to be ugly about it, Marni. I quoted what I'd read, and upon further reading (both here and elsewhere) the story about the sinkhole seems to be unsubstantiated rumor. As much as I loved Horizons, it did need a lot of work to bring it up to spec. Of course I wish that Disney had seen fit to spend the bucks. But they have much more data than I do, and perhaps it just didn't make sense to throw money at a pig.
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I also noticed the recent nostalgia run recently related to classic EPCOT Center Attractions over the last few days on the DPB.
Friends had forwarded them to me since they know I was a big fan of the Park back in the day as I don't read blogs..including the official one.
I would not read anything into it.
It's simply that someone in marketing must have noticed Epcot's anniversary was last week and that almost always brings out the nostalgia related articles.
The one that really felt like a punch in the stomach however was the recent one showing the graphic titled 'what I learned from Epcot in 1982'....or along those lines.
It showed a stylised icon from each of the major Future World Pavilions along with a quote from said Attraction.
Every single Attraction included in the graphic was gone or seriously altered for not the better.
Every quote from said Attraction was also extinct from the current day version.
Depressing .....
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Friends had forwarded them to me since they know I was a big fan of the Park back in the day as I don't read blogs..including the official one.
I would not read anything into it.
It's simply that someone in marketing must have noticed Epcot's anniversary was last week and that almost always brings out the nostalgia related articles.
The one that really felt like a punch in the stomach however was the recent one showing the graphic titled 'what I learned from Epcot in 1982'....or along those lines.
It showed a stylised icon from each of the major Future World Pavilions along with a quote from said Attraction.
Every single Attraction included in the graphic was gone or seriously altered for not the better.
Every quote from said Attraction was also extinct from the current day version.
Depressing .....
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Not ugly. Sorry. Just something that comes up time and time again.
sshindel
The Epcot Manifesto
I saw a pretty awesome response to that one yesterday on Twitter (@futureprobe1982 for full credit)
ShoalFox
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
Even if the sinkhole never happened, there definitely was a problem with the roof (albeit not a structural problem per se). There is a post on Mesa Verde Times that highlights water damage in show scenes caused by a major roof leak. Yet again this confirms that Disney did not care at all by that point.
PorterRedkey
Well-Known Member
Horizons, for me, was what Epcot Center was all about. I loved Journey to Imagination and World of Motion, but for me Horizons was Epcot Center's mission statement. It was not the future of transportation or communication. It was a big picture of the future that wasn't specified to a sponsor's specific interest, like cars or communication.
Let's start with a fun look at how the past viewed the future. My fave was the neon - art deco version of the future. Any one who has not ridden the attraction and only viewed it on video will never know how dynamic the scene was. Then let go into a giant room where the movie is shown. It would disorient you a bit, and was impressive, even when the footage was dated. An issue that could have been easily fixed during the Eisner axed refurb. Next you go into Carousel of Progress part 2. You see a family living in the future where deserts are farmed and people are living under the seas and in space. To close the attraction you have the "choose your own adventure" segment. Three choices to enjoy a short interactive glimpse at the environments you just travel through. A first for a Disney attraction. I know I rode it 4 times when I first visited just so I could see all of the scenarios (I got out voted once).
It was my all time favorite attraction! Ever! Period! It makes me sad I will buy the Horizon's T-shirt they will inevitably release - from the people who killed Horizons.
Let's start with a fun look at how the past viewed the future. My fave was the neon - art deco version of the future. Any one who has not ridden the attraction and only viewed it on video will never know how dynamic the scene was. Then let go into a giant room where the movie is shown. It would disorient you a bit, and was impressive, even when the footage was dated. An issue that could have been easily fixed during the Eisner axed refurb. Next you go into Carousel of Progress part 2. You see a family living in the future where deserts are farmed and people are living under the seas and in space. To close the attraction you have the "choose your own adventure" segment. Three choices to enjoy a short interactive glimpse at the environments you just travel through. A first for a Disney attraction. I know I rode it 4 times when I first visited just so I could see all of the scenarios (I got out voted once).
It was my all time favorite attraction! Ever! Period! It makes me sad I will buy the Horizon's T-shirt they will inevitably release - from the people who killed Horizons.
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Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
If it helps almost none of the people that "killed" Horizon are there now, so no need to take vengeance on a different generation.
PorterRedkey
Well-Known Member
Eisner is gone, but the culture remains. And for the record, I think Eisner did a lot of good, but this was his biggest mistake.If it helps almost none of the people that "killed" Horizon are there now, so no need to take vengeance on a different generation.