danlb_2000
Premium Member
So are you implying that Avatarland is a failure?
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Guardians of the Galaxy coming to Energy Pavilion at Epcot
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So are you implying that Avatarland is a failure?
DznyRktekt
Well-Known Member
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
TDS is a masterpiece, but is really a collection of IP based lands. They only barely avoid it by keeping the naming of the lands loose. American waterfront being the only one left that is actually quite general.
The one glaring exception was always Port Discovery, which many felt was previously the weakest.
This fallacy that IP is limiting, unpure or creatively straining needs to go. It's what they do with it that matters. As long as they choose to use it to further the parks messaging and theme, IP isn't the true enemy.
HMF
Well-Known Member
It depends on the park. At Epcot especially it has to be VERY carefully placed.
jt04
Well-Known Member
Not at all. I was referring to new theme park offerings and box office.
HauntedMansionFLA
Well-Known Member
Awesome. Thank you for clarifying
DDLand
Well-Known Member
I've seen you repeat this talking point before.
By IP, I take it you mean at one point it was the literary or cultural work of a person or group of persons. Not IP as intellectual property. I'd be hard pressed to say any Tokyo Disney Sea Port is IP based, except for Little Mermaid. With your broader definition, that would include Mysterious Island too.
I think a person can make an extremely reasoned case that there is a distinction between referencing great works of literature that reflected European Society's understanding of the world, and adding Star Wars Land based off of a movie from 2015. It isn't unreasonable to point out the difference between a 150 year old work in the public domain, and a movie franchise that is still being actively commercialized.
Mysterious Island utilizes works that are ingrained into the human experience. Wonder why rockets take off from Florida? Thank Jules Verne. His works indicate how an 19th Century European viewed the world. It was a reflection of its time. It's quintessential European literature. It also doesn't overpower or upstage the park it dwells in. It can play a supporting role, and be part of an ensemble. If you're picking culturally significant works and legends from different time periods around the world, Jules Verne is an excellent candidate. Another would be Sinbad, a cultural treasure that isn't the property of anyone. He expresses a synthesis of culture's views on the world, and showed the allure and danger of seafaring. It's part of the human experience.
These works fit beautifully alongside Tower of Terror, based off the legends and stories that add depth and character to a city.
Lost River Delta is a little closer to the IP land you speak of, with its Indiana Jones tie ins, but even this brings remarkable and authentic details to the table. This isn't Indiana Jones Land, it's a Latin American Jungle with Indiana Jones in it. Sub par, but a doable arrangement.
I think you're stretching here. Stretching hard. I know you're excited about Avatar, but ignoring the lack of care that is almost always inherent with IPs is naive. Sea has just launched an IP ride that helps you talk to a fictional clown fish, Disney's Animal Kingdom has just launched a land that does not reflect its core narrative on humanity's relationship with nature, and Epcot recently opened a ride that has nothing to do with celebrating man's cultural achievements.
Their track record is awful, and even Avatar reflected a compromise in the narrative Disney promised to tell.
But besides that, IP is great!
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BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I've seen you repeat this talking point before.
By IP, I take it you mean at one point it was the literary or cultural work of a person or group of persons. Not IP as intellectual property. I'd be hard pressed to say any Tokyo Disney Sea Port is IP based, except for Little Mermaid. With your broader definition, that would include Mysterious Island too.
I think a person can make an extremely reasoned case that there is a distinction between referencing great works of literature that reflected European Society's understanding of world, and adding Star Wars Land based off of a movie from 2015. It isn't unreasonable to point out the difference between a 150 year old work in the public domain, and a movie franchise that is still being actively commercialized.
Mysterious Island utilizes works that are ingrained into the human experience. Wonder why rockets take off from Florida? Thank Jules Verne. His works indicate how an 19th Century European viewed the world. It was a reflection of its time. It's quintessential European literature. It also doesn't overpower or upstage the park it dwells in. It can play a supporting role, and be part of an ensemble. If you're picking culturally significant works and legends from different time periods around the world, Jules Verne is an excellent candidate. Another would be Sinbad, a cultural treasure that isn't the property of anyone. He expresses a synthesis of culture's views on the world, and showed the allure and danger of seafaring. It's part of the human experience.
These works fit beautifully alongside Tower of Terror, based off the legends and stories that add depth and character to a city.
Lost River Delta is a little closer to the IP land you speak of, with its Indiana Jones tie ins, but even this brings remarkable and authentic details to the table. This isn't Indiana Jones Land, it's a Latin American Jungle with Indiana Jones in it. Sub par, but a doable arrangement.
I think you're stretching here. Stretching hard. I know you're excited about Avatar, but ignoring the lack of care that is almost always inherent with IPs is naive. Sea has just launched an IP ride that helps you talk to a fictional clown fish, Disney's Animal Kingdom has just launched a land that does not reflect its core narrative on humanity's relationship with nature, and Epcot recently opened a ride that has nothing to do with celebrating man's cultural achievements.
Their track record is awful, and even Avatar reflected a compromise in the narrative Disney promised to tell.
But besides that, IP is great!
I don't want to be reductionist with Tokyo Disney Sea. I love it.
E.P.C.O.T. was the only thing that was ever truly pure from the start.
I think you are on your own though with your beliefs of Pandora these days. The thesis of the land is humanities connection to nature, someone else is free to argue that. I'm not checking it out until June, hope you get the chance as well and we can chat about it then.
Perhaps he'll be put back onto Marvel now.
There is apparently discussion if GotG will come to Florida in substantial form.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
The reviews of Guardians of the Galaxy - Mission: BREAKOUT! are nothing short of raves. I rode it twice today, and I think it's one of the most entertaining E Tickets Disney has done in the last 20 years on either coast. It ranks right up there with Radiator Springs Racers, Indiana Jones Adventure, and Hyperspace Mountain. And it's far better than DCA's Tower of Terror ever was.
In my review on the Disneyland forum, I likened DCA's Twilight Zone Tower of Terror to a mellow old episode of Lawrence Welk, while Mission: BREAKOUT! is a rock n' roll comedy sketch from the current season of Saturday Night Live. It's that different, and that much better.
When Joe Rohde walks back into WDI on Tuesday morning after this holiday weekend, I imagine he'll get a standing ovation from the entire office.
There's no denying that.
cjkeating
Well-Known Member
If he isn't on Marvel do you know if he has a new unannounced role other than his usual AK role?
I would really like Joe to be involved in the Epcot redevelopments.
Kram Sacul
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
I was about to say I've never heard Hyperspace Mountain ranked along side Racers or Indy in anything other than wait times but then I got it. Good joke.
From the bean counters.
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RoysCabin
Well-Known Member
A quick thought: saw a previous post comparing Guardians and Avatar to Peter Pan and Alice in terms of "properties with a single film that have stood the test of time"...I'm not really sure how we can say that.
Alice and Pan have roots that go much further back, both in the larger cultural/literary mileau and more specifically in the history of Disney as a company. Also, neither is expected to prop up an entire area themed only around itself.
While Guardians could prove to have some staying power, I'm hard pressed to see where Avatar does. Yes, it was a blockbuster during its theatrical run, but since then has not really had a notable place in pop cultural consciousness; no quotes everybody knows, no diehard fanbase, etc. Cameron may want to make numerous sequels, and maybe they'll be good, but there certainly isn't any high public demand for them.
This does not disqualify Avatar Land from being good, of course, but the comparison doesn't feel apples to apples.
Alice and Pan have roots that go much further back, both in the larger cultural/literary mileau and more specifically in the history of Disney as a company. Also, neither is expected to prop up an entire area themed only around itself.
While Guardians could prove to have some staying power, I'm hard pressed to see where Avatar does. Yes, it was a blockbuster during its theatrical run, but since then has not really had a notable place in pop cultural consciousness; no quotes everybody knows, no diehard fanbase, etc. Cameron may want to make numerous sequels, and maybe they'll be good, but there certainly isn't any high public demand for them.
This does not disqualify Avatar Land from being good, of course, but the comparison doesn't feel apples to apples.
danlb_2000
Premium Member
Avatarland appears to have been well received so it's hard to say conclusively if there is a demand for Disney properties in the park, or just demand for something new.
baymenxpac
Well-Known Member
you're right. every time bill nye says global warming is a "hot topic with plenty of debate," it makes me cringe. i always wonder if he regrets that, and/or taking exxon's money to say it..
nevertheless, and don't take this as an attack on you, TJ, because i agree that kids (and adults, for that matter) have reduced attention spans nowadays, but it's so frustrating to me that we don't try to expect more from our kids. i remember thinking epcot was "boring" when i was a child, and now i revel in the fact that i got to experience the original epcot center and believe it helped form a portion of who i am today, attention span and all.
it's a bummer we have to cater everything to the LCD.
jt04
Well-Known Member
There is so much spin here you could patent it and turn it into a carnival ride.
jt04
Well-Known Member
I will credit the Iger era as the thread that runs through all these amazingly well received new offerings. From attractions to films to merchandise and every other platform.
Who would have predicted it?
danlb_2000
Premium Member
But this doesn't address what I said. Since pretty much everything new is tied to a Disney IP how do you know it's the IP that is making them popular or just the fact that it's something new? If, as you say, IP is the driving factor then we should have seen a much more lukewarm reception for Avatarland.
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