how come I thought of @Jimmy Thick right away
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great video of Joe Rohde and Jon Landau at DAK
- Thread starter twebber55
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Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
I like WDWMagic because it is a balance. There are different views. Few people tell members to leave the boards as if they own the sight unlike other places. Most of us have a deep love for Disney you are right, we have found a place to vent when things are not as awesome as they once were or praise things like the Castle and Osborne Lights.
As a Mom of a CM I am aware it isn't all Pixie Dust but I was aware of that decades before he was a CM, heck before he was born. Me as an example, I really dislike parades but look forward to this new one as it appears to be a different spin, a first for parade haters like me. A year ago nobody would expect me to say such a thing. It's what makes this particular sight interesting and entertaining.
Gabe1
Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
There are only a handful of people here that have a long track history of being right on with their rumors and facts and an abundance of know it alls. What the few have projected years in advance materialized. They have a following because they earned our trust, they didn't tell us to accept their word, they let their posts stand on their own, we ourselves came to know they had solid information. It is a longevity thing, demonstrates confidence and maturity. For me, I was reading their posts long before I became a member. It takes time to build a solid reputation as a fact and rumor guru.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
I do not know why some people are acting surprised at the notion that a Rohde would not be enthusiastic about Pandora. It was decision made about his park by somebody who views the parks more as a liability at a time when he has a huge target on his back as the next guy in line for "retirement." None of this is new news.
Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
Then some Disney fan you are. There's plenty in the Disney vault to inspire park rides - but they are languishing while Yoda and Kermit and Captain America do get attractions. Hypocrite.
Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and unfortunately for him, most people aren't buying it.
Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
Living in harmony with the land ON A NON-EARTH ALIEN PLANET. How does that fit into AK, exactly?
englanddg
One Little Spark...
More like a target hanging from his ear (sorry, couldn't let the joke pass)...but, seriously, I'm sure his eccentric nature is not adored by his higher ups, and his inability to "play the game" is a major factor (I suspect) in why he really needs a strong right hand to strongarm the execs into providing appropriate funding, and a major factor as to why I think AK turned into a bumbling mess that is merely a glimmer of the picture Rohde painted in his mind after the ledger budget got smacked with red ink.
I picture him at a point in his career where he has been largely relegated to the "idea man" status, and he knows it. He is blue sky, then they tear his ideas to shreds with rule by committee and rule by red ink, and we end up with the worst of both worlds.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
Also, since it's come up, I should clarify my "despise" comment. I don't "despise" the man, I don't know him, and from what I do know he seems to be a very well spoken, friendly person.
However, I do "despise" seeing him "spin" things as if they are complex ideas, when they are not. Sure, he had the blessing of scale, but I'm not sure he did anything that hasn't been done better elsewhere on the parks. For example, sure, Africa and Asia are well done. But, there is barely anything there. It's a lot of walking to see very little, and it doesn't trump the theme of say the Moroccan Pavilion or the Chinese Pavilion, or really anything at world showcase except the scale is larger and there is a lot more natural foliage. He's done this all along the development cycle of AK (I can dig up early youtube videos of him speaking about AK, etc.)
And while I know those videos are very packaged comments on his part, in my opinion, he has a vision of what a theme park could be, but not necessarily the political clout (or even general knowledge regarding engineering and operations) to make it what it should be. My commentary...
a) I don't want to go to a theme park to get beaten over the head with some social message. Appreciation and conservation? Fine. But, there is a line. Why not focus on the experiences and the immersion, rather than force the message down my throat, and allow me to come to my own conclusions?
b) If the meaning of your "park" is so unifying, intentional and deep that you have to explain it to me, you better darned well make an effort to design that narrative into the park. Not just "link everything" and then expect the end user to see it. Sorry, you are not a painter displaying modern art, you are designing a theme park...and the fact that your park is cramped, claustrophobic, lacking of visual distance landmarks (easy to get lost), and generally hot combined with the fact that there are zoos that have more interesting displays...well, yeah. There's a reason many people come in, hit the major attractions, and leave. And, it has nothing to do with the park design. It has completely to do with the fact that the park, unlike the other Disney Parks, requires the best operations can provide.
Knowledgeable and engaging "Tour guide" CMs on Discovery Island, making you excited about the lazy turtle you are seeing because of their enthusiasm. Things like that. Things that make you care about what you are actually seeing, rather than trying to juggle your kid and feeling hot and lost. I will note, this past trip I enjoyed AK far more than I ever had before, and it was because I noted this exact behaviour. I also noted it at the Seas in EPCOT, which is a wonderful touch. So, if there's someone in Operations who gets that, I hope they keep it up, and I'd love to see more edutainment along those lines!
c) The fact the park is an operational nightmare that I referred to earlier. He dreams. But, he can't do. What do I mean by that? It's great to blue sky and come up with concept art and models that are amazing. However, it's also important to consider operations, maintenance, construction and budget. How AK was put together reminds me of when someone who has no idea how to design an IT system is put in charge of a development project that is all outsourced. The project ends up spinning out of control because that person really has no clue about all the aspects of the project. They are an awesome specialist, but have no business being a project manager.
d) I cut Rohde some slack as well, because I do understand, unlike even people like Baxter and the other legends of which I'll say Rohde is among the last in that old school camp...he does care, that is obvious. He does want to give the best experience to the guest he can. And, most importantly, he deserves some slack because he is singled out as the only Imagineer (that I can think of) that is actually responsible for an ENTIRE theme park, not just bits and parts of it. So, that makes him a much easier target for criticism, since he led a MUCH larger project, rather than just fading into a team of people.
Anyhow, I think I've clarified enough. Take it or leave it, those are my thoughts.
Cheers!
MarkTwain
Well-Known Member
I used to be critical of Rohde myself until I visited Aulani, and witnessed the D23 expo presentation on Aulani that Joe Rohde gave, within a very short time of each other. Alauni is to date the best resort I've ever been in, and possibly the best themed environment I've ever been in. It's full of very big, ambitious ideas and expressive, communicative architecture, and you can sense every bit of that Animal Kingdom-style cultural authenticity and immersiveness. Unlike DAK though, the resort clearly didn't have any of the budget restraints that DAK was plagued with, and it shows. It's not hard to pinpoint Rohde's fingerprint as what the two Disney locations have in common, and it's also not hard to figure out why DAK failed in places as a design when Aulani didn't (hint: has nothing to do with Rohde). I would imagine if Rohde had been given the budget to make the (Wild) Animal Kingdom he had wanted to build, none of us would be criticizing him.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
And, I'd counter with, designing a Theme Park is completely different than designing a resort hotel.
From the moment you enter a Theme Park, you should be swept away into unique experiences, locales and stories that envelope you. It should envelope you to want to see and explore more at each turn. And, by the end of the day, you are enveloped in the experience and are sad you have to leave it.
Aulani is (and I grant, I've never been there) not much more than Polynesian on steroids (admittedly done very well).
It's two completely situations, with many different requirements to being successful.
I have no doubt Rohde is a smart and imaginative designer (that really can't be argued, he has proven he is)...but, designing Aulani is completely different (and far more static) than designing anything for AK.
What "rides" does Aulani have again?
Oh, that's right. It's just a very well done hotel.
RandySavage
Well-Known Member
I'm in Joe's corner. Pre-opening budget-cuts, mis-steps, lack of rides and all, DAK is(was) a work of art and a gem of theme park.
The two habitat trails in Africa and Asia trump all others I've been to (and I've been to the best zoos all over the globe) because of not only the artistry of the "natural" environments but the believability of the lead-in environments (Harambe and Anandapur). At no other zoo is(was) it as easy to suspend disbelief and imagine you are exploring an African gorilla sanctuary or a Maharajah's old tiger hunting palace. Africa and Asia are beautifully integrated, meaning any shortcomings of particular rides are eased because they all feel like they are part of a greater, connected experience (I'm concerned about how Lion King will preserve this integration in Harambe).
The Tree of Life itself (and its wonderful, empty paths) is another incredible achievement. The Oasis: a non-commercial, jungle version of Main Street - who would have thought something like that would be possible in today's "sell, sell, sell" world. I detest the word "magic" when applied to Disney (over-used, meaningless, saccharine), but exploring an uncrowded, lowly-lit DAK after dark was one of the best park experiences I've had: amazing and otherworldly (Another fear is they will up the general lighting level if the park moves into more of a night-time mode).
I think the park's apex year was 2006, when it was my favorite theme park in the US (it has suffered numerous injuries since then, like the Yeti, Tree of Life nets/closure, lost show effects, thinned vegetation, Africa Trek, loss of the Safari finale), but I'm hopeful a new apex can be reached down the road (2017).
Clearly, the park's not appreciated by all here, but it certainly resonated strongly with me in its good years, and I'm thankful Joe and the AK team were able to create what they did. Excellence, in my eyes.
The two habitat trails in Africa and Asia trump all others I've been to (and I've been to the best zoos all over the globe) because of not only the artistry of the "natural" environments but the believability of the lead-in environments (Harambe and Anandapur). At no other zoo is(was) it as easy to suspend disbelief and imagine you are exploring an African gorilla sanctuary or a Maharajah's old tiger hunting palace. Africa and Asia are beautifully integrated, meaning any shortcomings of particular rides are eased because they all feel like they are part of a greater, connected experience (I'm concerned about how Lion King will preserve this integration in Harambe).
The Tree of Life itself (and its wonderful, empty paths) is another incredible achievement. The Oasis: a non-commercial, jungle version of Main Street - who would have thought something like that would be possible in today's "sell, sell, sell" world. I detest the word "magic" when applied to Disney (over-used, meaningless, saccharine), but exploring an uncrowded, lowly-lit DAK after dark was one of the best park experiences I've had: amazing and otherworldly (Another fear is they will up the general lighting level if the park moves into more of a night-time mode).
I think the park's apex year was 2006, when it was my favorite theme park in the US (it has suffered numerous injuries since then, like the Yeti, Tree of Life nets/closure, lost show effects, thinned vegetation, Africa Trek, loss of the Safari finale), but I'm hopeful a new apex can be reached down the road (2017).
Clearly, the park's not appreciated by all here, but it certainly resonated strongly with me in its good years, and I'm thankful Joe and the AK team were able to create what they did. Excellence, in my eyes.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Excellent response!
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Now, I'll counter. Mind you, this is admittedly SUBJECTIVE.
Nothing to be said here, AK (I really hate adding "Disney" to the beginning of everything, but that's a personal gripe), certainly is an experience. But, for the average park goer who isn't intimately familiar with the park, like park nuts are, it's confusing and poorly laid out.
I agree, both are excellent, but they are often largely skipped. I wouldn't say they top every Zoo in the world (since you have seen the best the world has to offer, I'll defer to your assessment), but they are certainly in the top 5. And, I outlined in my previous post why they are and outlined what could be done to solve it.
Yeah, well, I never knew either of those stories, and I've done both more than once and am a bit of a detail nerd. So, if I missed it, I'm sure many more did. So, again, relating to my critique post about AK, they did a pretty poor job of telling the "story".
That they are.
That's a huge leap of logic.
It fits better than at Camp Minnie/Mickey, but I think you are right with your concern. Hopefully it doesn't overshadow everything else that is available there (outside of the Safari) as it really is a wonderful section of the park.
Really? What did I miss? I got lost a few times, and ran into the "Bugs Life" attraction, but otherwise don't really have any lasting memories of that section. Oh, we did run into the dog and kid from UP there, and they had a glorious meet and greet. Whomever was in the costumes that day were on the top of their game.
Aside from that...nope, no major memories.
Oh, you mean the area people walk through to get to the rides? (if that comes off snarky, it wasn't intended, but it was intentional...and this was the area I was referring to when I spoke of "CM Guides" being out and about to make you slow down and appreciate it)
I've seen pictures of AK after dark, and it does look amazing. Plus the animals are more active. I'm sure it was a spectacular experience, but it's not one that is commonly enjoyed.
I can't comment on this first hand, as I didn't attend then. I have discussed this with others, and heard similar. I take your word for it as gold (and I suspect you are right, that was the apex). I also agree with you, I hope a new apex can be reached in the future.
I don't hate the park (speaking for myself). However, I don't love it either. It doesn't draw me. It doesn't entice me. But, I have noted (and I said this before), it's gotten better over the years since I started going back regularly in 2010. Is that the fact I'm more familiar with it and know that the point is to slow down and absorb it, or is that the fact it is operationally getting better? I can't tell you. This past trip is the first trip I can say I honestly enjoyed my time there...because we didn't do the major rides. We spent our time on Discovery Island (thanks to those great CMs providing edutainment), we ventured out to Planet Watch (something we'd skipped every other trip), etc.
It's a great park, I don't wish to rob Joe of any of the kudos involved in that with any of my comments. Take that intent as an undercurrent for the more elaborate criticisms I make.
All that being said, the fact the whole project fell apart in an era where blank checks were being cut if the right people were convinced (this isn't like Disneyland where Walt mortgaged his house)...Rohde dropped a very huge ball...repeatedly.
And, I feel that is very fair criticism of him as a project manager. Lead designer, sure, I have no issues with that. Lead Imagineer...we will, I have a very good feeling that well end up with a budget, watered down version of what was an amazing idea.
Because, that's all (as far as I can tell) that he's good at. Ideas.
Nothing to be said here, AK (I really hate adding "Disney" to the beginning of everything, but that's a personal gripe), certainly is an experience. But, for the average park goer who isn't intimately familiar with the park, like park nuts are, it's confusing and poorly laid out.
I agree, both are excellent, but they are often largely skipped. I wouldn't say they top every Zoo in the world (since you have seen the best the world has to offer, I'll defer to your assessment), but they are certainly in the top 5. And, I outlined in my previous post why they are and outlined what could be done to solve it.
Yeah, well, I never knew either of those stories, and I've done both more than once and am a bit of a detail nerd. So, if I missed it, I'm sure many more did. So, again, relating to my critique post about AK, they did a pretty poor job of telling the "story".
That they are.
That's a huge leap of logic.
It fits better than at Camp Minnie/Mickey, but I think you are right with your concern. Hopefully it doesn't overshadow everything else that is available there (outside of the Safari) as it really is a wonderful section of the park.
Really? What did I miss? I got lost a few times, and ran into the "Bugs Life" attraction, but otherwise don't really have any lasting memories of that section. Oh, we did run into the dog and kid from UP there, and they had a glorious meet and greet. Whomever was in the costumes that day were on the top of their game.
Aside from that...nope, no major memories.
Oh, you mean the area people walk through to get to the rides? (if that comes off snarky, it wasn't intended, but it was intentional...and this was the area I was referring to when I spoke of "CM Guides" being out and about to make you slow down and appreciate it)
I've seen pictures of AK after dark, and it does look amazing. Plus the animals are more active. I'm sure it was a spectacular experience, but it's not one that is commonly enjoyed.
I can't comment on this first hand, as I didn't attend then. I have discussed this with others, and heard similar. I take your word for it as gold (and I suspect you are right, that was the apex). I also agree with you, I hope a new apex can be reached in the future.
I don't hate the park (speaking for myself). However, I don't love it either. It doesn't draw me. It doesn't entice me. But, I have noted (and I said this before), it's gotten better over the years since I started going back regularly in 2010. Is that the fact I'm more familiar with it and know that the point is to slow down and absorb it, or is that the fact it is operationally getting better? I can't tell you. This past trip is the first trip I can say I honestly enjoyed my time there...because we didn't do the major rides. We spent our time on Discovery Island (thanks to those great CMs providing edutainment), we ventured out to Planet Watch (something we'd skipped every other trip), etc.
It's a great park, I don't wish to rob Joe of any of the kudos involved in that with any of my comments. Take that intent as an undercurrent for the more elaborate criticisms I make.
All that being said, the fact the whole project fell apart in an era where blank checks were being cut if the right people were convinced (this isn't like Disneyland where Walt mortgaged his house)...Rohde dropped a very huge ball...repeatedly.
And, I feel that is very fair criticism of him as a project manager. Lead designer, sure, I have no issues with that. Lead Imagineer...we will, I have a very good feeling that well end up with a budget, watered down version of what was an amazing idea.
Because, that's all (as far as I can tell) that he's good at. Ideas.
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How do dragons and unicorns somehow fit?
ABQ
Well-Known Member
Yeah I often wonder why it appears some of the same people that can't abide Pandora being added to the AK are some of the same people that mock Disney cost cutting and failing to build the Beastly Kingdom. I guess fiction is only allowed by some if it was original fiction and not someone else's?
simple....those people didn't like the movie so it doesn't fit...never mind they know very little about the direction of the land or what will be involved in terms of rides, shops, restaurants etc...
which goes back to my earlier point... people complain about not having enough to do at DAK (valid complaint IMO) and when things are announced some still complain because its not what they wanted
there are a few purist who genuinely don't have a problem with avatar just that its not a fit ( I happen to disagree I think its a perfect fit and perfect way to add hours to DAK)
lobelia
Well-Known Member
Such a distinguished looking man in the video detracted by my inability to not stop watching the ear lobe dangle.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The mythical creatures of Beastly Kingdom were means by which we interpreted our world. They had a cultural reality, just like the yeti.
And Avatar was an allegory to our own world hence the moniker "Dances with Wolves with blue people".