GAC to Become DAS

[startraveler]

I'm not trying to be rude or fresh, but I think the level of noise and crowding at Disney World could kill a senior citizen in this condition.

Doesn't say she is a senior citizen.
I know many severely disabled people who love fast rides. Moving through space is a sensation that we don't often get to experience. Just the lift off on Soarin' or the Magic Carpet Rides is quite thrilling for me. Just being out with people in a mainstream environment that is partially accessible is a joy and not an everyday experience.

 

[rct247]

This thread is dominated by posters who are not in WDW nor have been in recent weeks. I happen to be one person who was there during the GAC/DAS changeover. I reported my experiences and what issues I experienced.

As alread mentioned by another poster, a changeover is going to have some bugs and quirks to it as everyone from guests to casts are getting used to the new system and the variety of special needs that need to be accomodated that a blanket system isn't always going to be perfect for.

Yes I was initially denied a DAS on the basis I use a power wheelchair and was not autistic. I reported that on this thread some 20-30 pages ago.

I was eventually approved for a DAS by a manager when I questioned what the first CM who denied me told me.

I reported on my experiences using DAS at two attractions (Test Track and TSM). And how I was treated as a wheelchair user at Star Tours (i.e. sent away with a longer wait time and not allowed to enter the air conditioned wheelchair line like I did before DAS was implemented). That bit I registered a complaint with Guest Relations over and really hope they adjust those admittance times to something more lax than the rigid 10 min Standbys.

I also posted in this thread days before DAS was employed bringing to light the discriminatory wording of DAS policy that specifically excluded folks using wheelchairs from obtaining DAS cards. The language is meant to prevent the marginally-disabled or cheaters who will use wheels to get from point a to b from obtaining DAS and abusing the new system. What practical effect it has is that those who are wheelchair-bound and have issues that make waiting inside a crowded queue difficult or dangerous are encountering a bias amongst CMs who mistakenly believe wheels solve all issues. So yes, the "severely disabled" (or what many people will think of as "severely disabled") are in fact being left out in the cold under DAS. My experience proved that unless you are willing to question and fight for your accommodation, you are more likely to be denied.

From my understanding, when GAC was created, many attractions & queues, especially at Disneyland, were not as wheelchair accessible as they are today and GAC had a stamp for a wheelchair accessible line which allowed them to go through a wheelchair accessible route whether that was the standby, was the Fastpass line, or was through an alternative entrance/exit. As time went on, guest relations CMs were putting both the wheelchair accessible entrance stamp AND that alternate entrance stamp which conflict with each other. Wheelchair users then got used to going through quicker due to CM error at some attractions. As time went on, many attractions received better wheelchair accessibility or changed procedures to make sure the process was easier or more in line with the average guest experience. A perfect example of this is Haunted Mansion where long lines would form at the exit, a new special entrance was created to allow guests to not only go through the regular line, but get the full guest experience as well without clogging up the exit as much. When DAS was created, the team looked at all the ways they accommodate guests with disabilities and determined that most attractions have all the necessary accommodations in place and where they didn't additional assistance and procedures would be in place at those specific attractions. This allowed DAS to focus on guests with disabilities that cannot be accomodate through a wheelchair accessible queue at all due to cognitive disabilities. The language on the card specifically does state this to avoid confusion on who it is designed for.

While I do sympathize with your situation in a crowded queue environment, especially at a different height level than a standing/walking average adult, you can encounter those same "difficult or dangerous" situations within the park and in places where the previous GAC nor the new DAS would help you. Crowds can be difficult for many people with or without disabilities. Parents traveling with small children especially as they are vulnerable to not being seen as well, wondering off, loud noises, trash and items on the ground that can be put in their mouths, and carrying them while a solution can be a very taxing job on a parent. Those kids get fussy, they might have to go to the bathroom, they suddenly and illogically get scared and throw a temper tantrum as well. While that can't always be compared to a "severely disabled" person bound to a wheelchair with a feeding tube/ oxygen tube, both situations do put people in a less than ideal situation, BUT they are being accommodated and Disney can't be held responsible for guest actions if they accidentally bump or stand too close. If the disability does not allow for waiting in a line environment, explaining those special needs shouldn't be a problem, but if you simply suggest that being in wheelchair bound prevents you from waiting in a line environment then that's who you will most likely be denied.

Meanwhile I know on at least two other forums people are posting their experiences of difficulties with DAS. The last few days the biggest reports have come in from the visually-impaired. Before with GAC these folks would get a GAC card that had a stamp directing attraction CMs where to send them for seating and boarding that accommodates their blindness. Under DAS, they're being denied DAS cards and having difficulty getting CMs at attractions to direct them appropriately. Several have reported having to explain their needs/requests to multiple CMs and still being sent along with sighted guests to areas that were dangerous and inappropriate to fulfill their needs. (i.e. blind guests being sent down dark, elevated walkways they cannot navigate safely, whilst others that should be sent down wheelchair access ramps to the front row theater seating are instead put in the crowd and seated in the middle to back of the theater where they cannot see).

Over time this will get better, but as long as they explain to the cast what their special needs are, the cast are trained to accommodate reasonable requests. Many attractions have dark areas and some containing elevated walkways, but my question is even if the visually impaired guests can see light vs. dark just not shapes, clarity, or even colors, wouldn't it be difficult to traverse a theme park with crowds and curbs and planters and all sorts of sounds from all over. Yes a line environment is more of a maze and can be darker, but the visually impaired already come across these obstacles in their day to day life. Ensuring they get proper seating is one of the primary accommodations needed and the cast at each attraction can assist when asked with that. This is something though that will probably change over time to ensure they are having their needs met.

Since I have boarding issues that leave me using limited wheelchair-accessible vehicles, I primarily used GAC as an express entry to my wheelie line where I waited 10-30 mins to board. In some cases, DAS works just fine with me and the way I toured. (I just get a TSM Return Time to start my day instead of doing something else then lining up for TSM.) In other cases, it makes me wait longer than everyone else and becomes decidedly unfair. My next trip I'll have FP+ and Magic Band so I'll be able to incorporate both systems and see how they work for me.

In some cases, like Buzz Lightyear, they have limited whether ECVs can come into the building, surprisingly, this does cut down on the wheelchair line. At Toy Story, they currently allow ECVs into the queue which is part of the reason why it takes so long to go through that process. Ideally, they should only permit regular wheelchairs and electric wheelchairs in the building. Even with GAC and DAS the cards both state that you may experience longer wait times due to additional boarding procedures. So even with a DAS that takes off 10 minutes of the wait, you still may wait longer for designated wheelchair vehicle. Obviously every vehicles can't always be accessible. A similar yet rare situation is if you visit a place of business and all the handicap parking spots are taken. Businesses are required by law to have a certain number of parking spots available for patrons, but even then if they are all full, you may have to park in a regular spot or wait for one to become available. Same for wheelchair accessible bathroom stalls. Requirements are in place to have a certain number, but even then you have wait.

I've been monitoring the FP+ situation as well so that gives me a whole new set of concerns. (For instance, I noticed while in WDW the MDE app on my Android phone was so slow it was basically unusable.) The past 5 years when I go to Disney for NYE I spend NYE itself at DHS. I go for dinner, fireworks then after midnight I go to ride TSM with my family. I spend the rest of the night (it's EMH after midnight in that park) enjoying Osborne Lights. Right now CMs have no idea how they'll handle DAS for this post-midnight EMH time. I asked specifically about it. The big test of DAS to me will be what happens after midnight when I go to ride TSM. I won't be able to schedule a FP+ time. DAS may mean I'll have to chose between spending my last hour at the park that night in line for TSM's wheelie car or enjoying an uncrowded Osborne Lights. That will affect how usable I find the program.

--Situation for Avg Guest--
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:15pm, watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to find a 120min wait at 12:20am. The guest has to choose to spent 2 hours in line for Toy Story or go see the Osborne Lights. They are stuck in that line because Fastpasses are not offered or taken during EMH. It's busy because it is NYE.

--Situation for Avg Guests with GAC-- (Guests in wheelchair but with Alternate Entrance stamp)
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:30pm (maneuvering through crowd more difficult), watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to use GAC at 12:35am. The guest goes through the Fastpass line and waits 5 minute pre-merge and 25minutes post merge in the wheelchair line. After riding and getting to streets of America, they still have 45 minutes to enjoy the Osborne Lights.

--Situation for Avg Guests with DAS (Guests in a wheelchair)
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:30pm, watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to get a return time for DAS at 12:35am. The wait is 120 minutes, the park closes at 2am, so the return time will be written for 1:50am which is more than 10 minutes less than the wait due to the wait exceeding park operating hours. Guest gets to go see the Osborne Lights until it is 1:40am and then makes their way over to ride. They still encounter a 5 minute wait pre-merge and 25 minutes post merge in the wheelchair line. Getting them out of the ride around 2:30am.

First of all, do these seem relatively realistic? Second which one is the best for anyone? Which one is the worst for anyone? Which one is the most fair? Are the guests with disabilities being accommodated in both situations with GAC and DAS? Was GAC perhaps giving you an unfair advantage even with the difficulties and challenges you encounter having a disability? Just things to think about, you don't have to answer.

 

[The Mom]

Not everyone who needs a wheelchair in order to tour WDW is immobile. Perhaps you didn't know this.

I'm glad to see you were able to control your temper, as it could have been a very sick person you wanted to attack.

I agree. My mother used a wheelchair after her heart attack - I had to promise her doctor that I wouldn't let her walk around too much, and as it was a 50th anniversary trip (on my dime) she was determined to go. So I went and pushed her all over WDW. Many people with cardiac/lung conditions are ambulatory under normal circumstances, but cannot walk around all day without endangering their health - but as long as they take it easy, they will be OK. Many of them do NOT want to use a wheelchair or scooter, but have been ordered by their physician to do so, as in my mother's case. She almost cried when a CM insinuated that she was faking it.

On her last visit (not just most recent, but LAST) she could not get around without a wheelchair, although she was able to use a walker at home. But even the most casual observer could tell she had mobility issues, though she could still walk short distances. She could not climb stairs or steps, for instance, but did OK (but slowly) on flat surfaces.

 

[natatomic]

From my understanding, when GAC was created, many attractions & queues, especially at Disneyland, were not as wheelchair accessible as they are today and GAC had a stamp for a wheelchair accessible line which allowed them to go through a wheelchair accessible route whether that was the standby, was the Fastpass line, or was through an alternative entrance/exit. As time went on, guest relations CMs were putting both the wheelchair accessible entrance stamp AND that alternate entrance stamp which conflict with each other. Wheelchair users then got used to going through quicker due to CM error at some attractions.

Not really CM error. At all attractions, I was trained to go by the stamp that "gets them on the ride faster." Which, considering not all disabilities are visibly apparent, kinda makes sense since we as CMs have no idea why one or both of the stamps are on the card on the first place or what specific needs they have.
That being said, all wheelchair stamped GACs came pre-stamped with Alternate Entrance stamps at MK and DHS because the VPs of those parks made the decision to do so. The primary reason being that there is this culture of "make all guests happy, no negative letters or complaints allowed," that has developed at Disney, and too many guests with their sprained ankle in a wheelchair with a GAC were upset that their "red card" didn't get them thru the FP line with all the other red cards (very few guests knew there were different stamps that received different types of accommodations, but even when you explained it to them, the moment they see a family sent thru the FP line - especially if they all "looked" healthy - they'd get all indignant and demand the same - better - access).

 

[BroganMc]

While I do sympathize with your situation in a crowded queue environment, especially at a different height level than a standing/walking average adult, you can encounter those same "difficult or dangerous" situations within the park and in places where the previous GAC nor the new DAS would help you. Crowds can be difficult for many people with or without disabilities. Parents traveling with small children especially as they are vulnerable to not being seen as well, wondering off, loud noises, trash and items on the ground that can be put in their mouths, and carrying them while a solution can be a very taxing job on a parent. Those kids get fussy, they might have to go to the bathroom, they suddenly and illogically get scared and throw a temper tantrum as well. While that can't always be compared to a "severely disabled" person bound to a wheelchair with a feeding tube/ oxygen tube, both situations do put people in a less than ideal situation, BUT they are being accommodated and Disney can't be held responsible for guest actions if they accidentally bump or stand too close. If the disability does not allow for waiting in a line environment, explaining those special needs shouldn't be a problem, but if you simply suggest that being in wheelchair bound prevents you from waiting in a line environment then that's who you will most likely be denied.

This presumes that people like me who wish to avoid crowd situations for safety reasons don't do just that when they go about outside of an attraction situation.

I don't leave a park right at closing. I wait somewhere else away from the crowd and let it disperse. 30-40 minutes is not uncommon for me. I usually am on the last buses or ferries out of the park at night.

I use wheelchair designated spots for fireworks or parades so I am parked at a rope line or fence where people are not allowed to stand or walk in front of me and everyone else is parked around me. If there's no designated area, I have already scoped out my own spots that provide that fence or natural barrier away from the crowd.

I have my favored bathroom locations because I know they are less likely to be occupied and yet give me the accessible stalls I need. And if I'm in a place that has few choices, I schedule my bathroom visits before I absolutely need to go so I can comfortably wait for a stall 20 minutes if I have to. I'm just waiting inside the bathroom where I can see if the HA stall is available.

I don't go to rope drops or take crowded walkways through a park. I prefer the Tomorrowland to Toy Story Circus pathway so it gets me away from those dodging people.

I go to Food & Wine during the daytime and/or weekdays and avoid it on weekend nights because the crowd is too intense.

I don't go to EPCOT or Magic Kingdom for NYE because the crowd is too much everywhere. I go to DHS because there are still locations there far from the crowd. My fireworks viewing spot is nowhere near the Sorcerer Mickey Hat or the band. It's well off to the side over by Indiana Jones, which is closed by evening and therefore leaving the area uncrowded.

The one time I cannot avoid a crowd is when I wish to go on an attraction like TSM or Soarin'. So that's where I ask for the ability to get get a Return Time and come back to use the less crowded FP entry. If I didn't also have issues that affected my ability to use the FP machines or use that system, then I could be served that way as well. FP+ may serve my needs better provided I can stick to a prescheduled ride time. That 60 day pre-arrangement is not conducive to how my health works. I'm not able to predict what I'll be able to do on Tuesday December 12 at 1pm. I'll try it tho and see.

Over time this will get better, but as long as they explain to the cast what their special needs are, the cast are trained to accommodate reasonable requests. Many attractions have dark areas and some containing elevated walkways, but my question is even if the visually impaired guests can see light vs. dark just not shapes, clarity, or even colors, wouldn't it be difficult to traverse a theme park with crowds and curbs and planters and all sorts of sounds from all over. Yes a line environment is more of a maze and can be darker, but the visually impaired already come across these obstacles in their day to day life. Ensuring they get proper seating is one of the primary accommodations needed and the cast at each attraction can assist when asked with that. This is something though that will probably change over time to ensure they are having their needs met.

Again you're assuming a person with this disability doesn't already accommodate it in situations outside the attraction queue. Many plan their visits only during daylight hours just because they know night time provides too many obstacles. What they cannot avoid is that dark queue interior, unless they avoid the attraction altogether. Is that your solution? Tell them unless they can do everything Disney has to offer to just not come?

In some cases, like Buzz Lightyear, they have limited whether ECVs can come into the building, surprisingly, this does cut down on the wheelchair line.

Not surprising at all. ECVs are lumped together with wheelchairs. So those who have wheels are sent to wait in the same place. It's only those who need the vehicles that can take wheelchairs who have the longer waits. The others are transfers who are told to park and sent on their merry way to board.

At Toy Story, they currently allow ECVs into the queue which is part of the reason why it takes so long to go through that process. Ideally, they should only permit regular wheelchairs and electric wheelchairs in the building.

And prohibit people who lack the ability to stand long periods from enjoying the attraction? Or create a situation where they now qualify for a DAS on the basis they cannot stand. I don't think you thought that through.

Even with GAC and DAS the cards both state that you may experience longer wait times due to additional boarding procedures. So even with a DAS that takes off 10 minutes of the wait, you still may wait longer for designated wheelchair vehicle. Obviously every vehicles can't always be accessible.

To me this smacks of indifference to the needs of the wheelchair-bound. It's like Disney saying "you have a problem we don't care about but we're being extremely fair to people who don't have any of your problems",

If you're going to have a system that sends wheelchair-bound folks away to stage out returns then USE IT to their benefit. Track how many guests need the wheelchair vehicles and give them a window that spaces out the demand. Don't just send them away to appease the pedestrians and then have them return to wait longer then call it providing a FAIR AND EQUAL access to attractions. That is not fair or equal. That's a bias against wheelchair users with an indifference to their needs. It's not going to leave a good impression.

--Situation for Avg Guest--
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:15pm, watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to find a 120min wait at 12:20am. The guest has to choose to spent 2 hours in line for Toy Story or go see the Osborne Lights. They are stuck in that line because Fastpasses are not offered or taken during EMH. It's busy because it is NYE.

--Situation for Avg Guests with GAC-- (Guests in wheelchair but with Alternate Entrance stamp)
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:30pm (maneuvering through crowd more difficult), watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to use GAC at 12:35am. The guest goes through the Fastpass line and waits 5 minute pre-merge and 25minutes post merge in the wheelchair line. After riding and getting to streets of America, they still have 45 minutes to enjoy the Osborne Lights.

--Situation for Avg Guests with DAS (Guests in a wheelchair)
Dinner at 8:00pm, Grab a spot for NYE fireworks at 9:30pm, watch fireworks at 12:00am, head over to Toy Story to get a return time for DAS at 12:35am. The wait is 120 minutes, the park closes at 2am, so the return time will be written for 1:50am which is more than 10 minutes less than the wait due to the wait exceeding park operating hours. Guest gets to go see the Osborne Lights until it is 1:40am and then makes their way over to ride. They still encounter a 5 minute wait pre-merge and 25 minutes post merge in the wheelchair line. Getting them out of the ride around 2:30am.

First of all, do these seem relatively realistic? Second which one is the best for anyone? Which one is the worst for anyone? Which one is the most fair? Are the guests with disabilities being accommodated in both situations with GAC and DAS? Was GAC perhaps giving you an unfair advantage even with the difficulties and challenges you encounter having a disability? Just things to think about, you don't have to answer.

Those times seem about right with the exception that in past years DHS has been open until 3am. So under GAC, I'd be out of TSM by 1:30am and have 90 minutes to enjoy Osborne or do Muppets or Star Tours. I prefer being at Osborne between 2-3am because that is when it is the least crowded and you know I like to avoid crowds.

So under DAS I may very well have to chose between TSM and Osborne for my last hour. I'll probably chose Osborne because it is something that won't be there every trip.

But the question is what is the most effective use of the wheelchair line for this attraction? Do you keep that wheelchair line empty the first 60 minutes because you've sent all the wheelchair guests away to be fair to guests who won't use the line, or just let the wheelchair users in the line and process them as the demand exists?

Ideally I wish Disney tracked the demand of the wheelchair vehicles so those guests would have waits that applied to them and the cars were used as expected. Seeing an empty wheelchair car go by when there's a wheelchair person waiting behind 30 pedestrians who won't use it always makes me sad.

 

[mr spalding]

The "fat tubs of lard" as you so lovingly called them, may, and I want to put an emphasis on MAY have had a control problem, but that control problem (if that's what it was) turned into a disability. If a person is in a wheelchair because they were driving to fast, driving drunk or texting and got into a serious accident which left them disabled, should we call their problem a lack of control or recognize that what it is now is a disability?

There is a big difference when it comes to a person becoming disabled by "design" and one who is disabled by "misfortune". Moreover, one disability can be reversed and the other can't. Anyone who has a disability that is caused by design or can be reversed should not be granted the same rights as those who are truly disabled.

 

[awoogala]

There is a big difference when it comes to a person becoming disabled by "design" and one who is disabled by "misfortune". Moreover, one disability can be reversed and the other can't. Anyone who has a disability that is cause by design or can be reversed should not be granted the same rights as those who are truly disabled.

and you have no idea if that person's obesity is due to another invisible disorder, or if they have gained weight because they are immobile, etc.

 

[Goofyernmost]

There is a big difference when it comes to a person becoming disabled by "design" and one who is disabled by "misfortune". Moreover, one disability can be reversed and the other can't. Anyone who has a disability that is caused by design or can be reversed should not be granted the same rights as those who are truly disabled.

If you get disabled because you drove to fast, drunk or texting, it is by design. You can justify it all you like but by design or misfortune is no less disabled. At the point the cause is secondary, the problem is current. Sorry, but, in other words, in situation like this, yesterday is not relevant. Today is the only consideration.

 

[BroganMc]

There is a big difference when it comes to a person becoming disabled by "design" and one who is disabled by "misfortune". Moreover, one disability can be reversed and the other can't. Anyone who has a disability that is caused by design or can be reversed should not be granted the same rights as those who are truly disabled.

That's getting into the "who deserves it more" debate. Not something I chose to indulge in. Just because my disability is due to a childhood illness I had no control over doesn't mean my needs are greater than someone who got drunk at senior prom and had a car accident that left them quadriplegic. We both need to use wheelchairs. If anything, fate has granted me a reprieve from the guilt that I caused my disability. That's a kindness enough to compensate our different circumstances.

I think it is more helpful to get back to the frustration that truly fuels this disparity. The fact that Disney does not properly track the demand for wheelchair vehicles and artificially inflates the waits by accommodating those who can transfer with those who cannot. I can't tell you how irritating it was for me at TSM when they insisted on using the same 6-seater cars for both kinds of guests and just put the seat in or pulled it out for transfer/non-transfers. If I had a nickel every time I was asked to make way for a transfer party behind me to board ahead of me because they'd already readied the car for transfers, I'd have gained several pounds on Mickey ice cream bars.

It's better now that they are cycling an 8-seater transfer vehicle into the mix with the 6-seater. Now they are passing up us wheelies far less often for the transfers.

Keep in mind folks, I am NOT talking about frustration that there aren't many wheelchair vehicles or that you have to wait the ride cycle for it to cycle through. I'm talking about being made to wait longer to accommodate people who don't need your resource but are being directed to use it anyway. That irritation is right up there with people who insist on using the one HA stall when there are 10 other available regular stalls at the ready.

 

[willtravel]

The "fat tubs of lard" as you so lovingly called them, may, and I want to put an emphasis on MAY have had a control problem, but that control problem (if that's what it was) turned into a disability. If a person is in a wheelchair because they were driving to fast, driving drunk or texting and got into a serious accident which left them disabled, should we call their problem a lack of control or recognize that what it is now is a disability?

Just like cigarette smoking. Then addiction to cigarette smoking is a control problem and then should be considered a disability.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Just like cigarette smoking. Then addiction to cigarette smoking is a control problem and then should be considered a disability.

It is mind boggling to me that people can not or will not be able to understand that not all people are fat because the eat to much. Most perhaps! But certainly not all. Some got overweight because of disability. Do you have any way of knowing which came first when you see that person? No one that I have ever heard of got an addiction to cigarettes that didn't smoke. Even if they did, the resulting problems such as COPD are certainly a result of that, but that doesn't mean at the point it shows up isn't a disability. With the standards that everyone seems to put on what a disability is the only people that qualify are those that are born with it. Keep your fingers crossed and hope that bad luck and bad situations continue to pass you by because payback will certainly be hell.

 

[rct247]

This presumes that people like me who wish to avoid crowd situations for safety reasons don't do just that when they go about outside of an attraction situation.

I don't leave a park right at closing. I wait somewhere else away from the crowd and let it disperse. 30-40 minutes is not uncommon for me. I usually am on the last buses or ferries out of the park at night.

I use wheelchair designated spots for fireworks or parades so I am parked at a rope line or fence where people are not allowed to stand or walk in front of me and everyone else is parked around me. If there's no designated area, I have already scoped out my own spots that provide that fence or natural barrier away from the crowd.

I have my favored bathroom locations because I know they are less likely to be occupied and yet give me the accessible stalls I need. And if I'm in a place that has few choices, I schedule my bathroom visits before I absolutely need to go so I can comfortably wait for a stall 20 minutes if I have to. I'm just waiting inside the bathroom where I can see if the HA stall is available.

I don't go to rope drops or take crowded walkways through a park. I prefer the Tomorrowland to Toy Story Circus pathway so it gets me away from those dodging people.

I go to Food & Wine during the daytime and/or weekdays and avoid it on weekend nights because the crowd is too intense.

I don't go to EPCOT or Magic Kingdom for NYE because the crowd is too much everywhere. I go to DHS because there are still locations there far from the crowd. My fireworks viewing spot is nowhere near the Sorcerer Mickey Hat or the band. It's well off to the side over by Indiana Jones, which is closed by evening and therefore leaving the area uncrowded.

The one time I cannot avoid a crowd is when I wish to go on an attraction like TSM or Soarin'. So that's where I ask for the ability to get get a Return Time and come back to use the less crowded FP entry. If I didn't also have issues that affected my ability to use the FP machines or use that system, then I could be served that way as well. FP+ may serve my needs better provided I can stick to a prescheduled ride time. That 60 day pre-arrangement is not conducive to how my health works. I'm not able to predict what I'll be able to do on Tuesday December 12 at 1pm. I'll try it tho and see.

I'm glad that you have found ways to better navigate the parks to meet your needs. I'm sure it wasn't easy to do so at first. It was something that you had to try out and plan to ensure that everything worked out best for you. When you first visited the parks, it was a new experience. You probably weren't used to the level of crowds the parks see vs back at home when you are out and about. So, I'm glad you made it trough the transition to find ways to enjoy the park and not let it hinder you. Even then though, like you said it is impossible to avoid crowds everywhere including visiting Hollywood Studios on NYE which has also reached capacity in years past.

I'm sure DAS will be the same way. It is uncomfortable and new at first. It will require some extra planning. It won't always be "perfect" because you are still limited in some aspects, but once you figure out the way to maximize your time using DAS, Fastpass+, and when to visit the parks/attractions, I'm sure you will find things enjoyable again. You will triumph. It will just take time getting used to the new system.

Again you're assuming a person with this disability doesn't already accommodate it in situations outside the attraction queue. Many plan their visits only during daylight hours just because they know night time provides too many obstacles. What they cannot avoid is that dark queue interior, unless they avoid the attraction altogether. Is that your solution? Tell them unless they can do everything Disney has to offer to just not come?

Many attractions have dark queues that no matter which entrance you go into, DAS/GAC would not help. While I'm not familiar with all the special needs a person with impaired vision might have, I feel confident in saying that even if you do your best to plan around only visiting during daylight, those guests still encounter dark situations and nighttime at home, at their hotel, in new environments, in and out of the parks. Even during the day time, even for an average guest there are obstacles and situations where even I catch myself trying feel my way around or stumbling. Curbs, railroad track, strollers, ECVs, gift shops packed full of shelves, people stopping in the middle of paths, exiting a theater into the sun, going into dark areas like Ellen's Energy Adventure, Captain EO, Tower of Terror, Stitch's Great Escape, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Pirates, Nemo, its tough to be a bug, Dinosaur, etc. A DAS card won't lead these guests through the darkness or provide extra lighting. A DAS card won't let them avoid the line completely, they will still have to traverse aspects of a line in a darkened area. Even GAC wouldn't have done this for them. They would have gotten a stamp for "front row seating" which would provide the same accommodations as asking a cast member does now.

Not surprising at all. ECVs are lumped together with wheelchairs. So those who have wheels are sent to wait in the same place. It's only those who need the vehicles that can take wheelchairs who have the longer waits. The others are transfers who are told to park and sent on their merry way to board...

...And prohibit people who lack the ability to stand long periods from enjoying the attraction? Or create a situation where they now qualify for a DAS on the basis they cannot stand. I don't think you thought that through.

At Buzz Lightyear, guests traveling in ECVs and ESVs are required to transfer to a wheelchair to enter the building. Wheelchair can be a manual wheelchair, an electric wheelchair with a joystick, or a stroller acting as wheelchair. ECVs and ESVs are not allowed because their is limited room to store them at the exit while they ride, they are harder to manuever through the queue, and they cannot be loaded onto the designated wheelchair accessible vehicle if they needed to. There is a larger percentage of ECV users that can walk short distances or transfer easily anyways. Limiting whether or not they can come inside does help make that wheelchair line shorter. If Toy Story Midway Mania were do implement this, they would provide attraction wheelchairs that guests could borrow allowing those in ECVs to still be accomodated with a wheelchair if necessary so they won't be standing. The ones that can walk short distances and transfer may realize they can do so without their ECV so long as it is with a Fastpass they are redeeming. It would cut down the amount of people waiting in line for the vehicle. If you are limited to a wheelchair, regular guests, regular wheelchair guests, and GAC with the wheelchair accessible line stamp would all be going through the regular queue anyways and at merge be told to go to the wheelchair line. After merge, regular guests still have to travel up stairs, through a switchback, across a bridge, and down stairs, so post merge isn't always boarded right away either. Ideally, Toy Story should look into a way to send guests who can't climb stairs but don't need a wheelchair vehicle to the regular loading area to allow those who need the ride vehicle more preference.

To me this smacks of indifference to the needs of the wheelchair-bound. It's like Disney saying "you have a problem we don't care about but we're being extremely fair to people who don't have any of your problems",

If you're going to have a system that sends wheelchair-bound folks away to stage out returns then USE IT to their benefit. Track how many guests need the wheelchair vehicles and give them a window that spaces out the demand. Don't just send them away to appease the pedestrians and then have them return to wait longer then call it providing a FAIR AND EQUAL access to attractions. That is not fair or equal. That's a bias against wheelchair users with an indifference to their needs. It's not going to leave a good impression.

GAC didn't always accommodate everyone's needs. DAS won't either. In fact, there are many instances where some guests with disabilities just can't or aren't accommodated. Some attractions are not wheelchair accessible period like the Peoplemover and Swiss Family Treehouse. Most scripted attractions have Guest Assistance Packets that have written scripts for guests with hearing impairments to follow. For those with visual impairments and hearing impairments, to my knowledge, there are not any braille scripts for them. Let's say a guest travels to the park in a standing mobility device or ESV because they can't sit down, what rides can you stand up on? A guest has a latex allergy and do everything they can including get information from guest relations on things avoid that might trigger a reaction. The balloons at Disney do have latex in them, what if wind cause a balloon to from another guest to bump into the guest with an allergy. Speaking of guests with allergies, if I have a concern with a menu item, I have to wait for the chef to come out and talk to me about it and it may even take longer to prepare yet I still had to wait in line to get to that point. What gives? Shouldn't Disney track how many guests have certain allergies have have designated food prep areas for those foods to have them ready for me when I request certain items? What if my child prone to epileptic seizures due to strobes and flashing lights? Do you know how many attractions have strobes or flashing lights that they can't do? What about if I am guest that has a custom built wheelchair to meet my needs that has the seat tilted at an angle and an extra spot on the back for my oxygen tank. Many attractions have designated cars, but my custom wheelchair still can't fit out half of them and I can't transfer. What if I have a severe anxiety in crowds? I try to visit during the off season, but the fireworks at Magic Kingdom are very busy. I even locate the designed wheelchair viewing, but getting to and out of that area still requires us to deal with crowds?

Everyone has their own needs disability or not. Everyone is going to encounter some indifference known or unknown. All you can do is do your best. All Disney can do is do their best.

Those times seem about right with the exception that in past years DHS has been open until 3am. So under GAC, I'd be out of TSM by 1:30am and have 90 minutes to enjoy Osborne or do Muppets or Star Tours. I prefer being at Osborne between 2-3am because that is when it is the least crowded and you know I like to avoid crowds.

Extra Magic Hours in the evening have been shorted from 3 hours to 2 hours now. I was taking that into account.

But the question is what is the most effective use of the wheelchair line for this attraction? Do you keep that wheelchair line empty the first 60 minutes because you've sent all the wheelchair guests away to be fair to guests who won't use the line, or just let the wheelchair users in the line and process them as the demand exists?

Ideally I wish Disney tracked the demand of the wheelchair vehicles so those guests would have waits that applied to them and the cars were used as expected. Seeing an empty wheelchair car go by when there's a wheelchair person waiting behind 30 pedestrians who won't use it always makes me sad

There are guests who have return times before and during the fireworks. There are guests who will choose to not watch the fireworks and still use this line. There will naturally be a wave of guests after parades, fireworks, show let outs, etc. Demand is different at different times of the day and different times of the year. How do you account for that? Even with a return card, those guests are either getting in the regular line and getting processed or getting a return card to return through the Fastpass line and then get processed. The return card does offer the additional benefit of returning anytime after the return time given. So a family that waits in line is forced to wait with the same high demand versus a return card and/or DAS allows them to potentially return at a less busy time. In any case, the wheelchair line is separate from the Fastpass & Standby lines. With GAC, with DAS, without either, or with a return card, it is hard to tell what that demand and line might be at any given time. There are times when large special needs groups in wheelchairs visit the parks and cause these lines to get outrageously long. We're talking 20 wheelchairs in a group and they can't transfer and they are all together. You do the best you can acknowledging that they is going to be a wait of some kind even for that one group and that they all wont' be together on the ride at the same time.

 

[BroganMc]

I'm glad that you have found ways to better navigate the parks to meet your needs. I'm sure it wasn't easy to do so at first. It was something that you had to try out and plan to ensure that everything worked out best for you. When you first visited the parks, it was a new experience. You probably weren't used to the level of crowds the parks see vs back at home when you are out and about. So, I'm glad you made it trough the transition to find ways to enjoy the park and not let it hinder you. Even then though, like you said it is impossible to avoid crowds everywhere including visiting Hollywood Studios on NYE which has also reached capacity in years past.

I'm sure DAS will be the same way. It is uncomfortable and new at first. It will require some extra planning. It won't always be "perfect" because you are still limited in some aspects, but once you figure out the way to maximize your time using DAS, Fastpass+, and when to visit the parks/attractions, I'm sure you will find things enjoyable again. You will triumph. It will just take time getting used to the new system.

First of all, thank you for the intelligent debate. I appreciate the time and effort you're putting into these responses. It's invigorating and giving me lots of good ideas. I always love it when I encounter a poster who shows such respect and wit that it adds to a debate rather than descends into childish name-calling or other juvenile behavior. Kudos!

Now onto the debate...

Yes when I first went to Disney World (back in 1998) I approached it like most commando first timers. I got the Unnofficial Guide to WDW, studied it like a war manual and made a plan. I also mistakenly relied on a family member who'd been there before and thought he knew how to be a tour guide for everyone, but had no experience accommodating disabled needs. (That resulted in me sitting so far back in the crowd around EPCOT at Illuminations my mom had to tell me what was happening with the globe because I couldn't see a darn thing.) I was being pushed around in a manual wheelchair then so got to experience the joys of being used as a battering ram during the great EPCOT Egress at park closing. My wheelchair pusher couldn't comprehend just how terrifying an experience that was for me or why I huddled inside the chair like it was a tank just to avoid getting hit again by those crosscutting pedestrians. If it wasn't for those sparkly fiber optic sidewalks, I wouldn't have enjoyed anything about the experience. It left me with a keen understanding of why children are so cranky in those strollers at night. You really do not understand the anxiety that builds when confronted with feet, butts and wall-to-wall congestion coupled with a complete lack of control over where you're being driven until you experience it firsthand. I suspect that's why many children put their feet outside the vehicle and stop mom & dad from pushing them blindly about. It's a cry for help.

Back in 1998 Disney put out a guide for guests in wheelchairs that directed them to use the alternate entrances for most attractions. It also described what rides were like and their duration. I made sure I had one for each park and incorporated that knowledge into my touring plans.

Then they switched to FastPass and GAC and did away with the alternate entrances for wheelchair users. They did so because people were faking disabilities and renting wheelchairs in hopes of being able to cut a line. ADA requires equal access, so the solution was to just make the entrances big enough for wheelchairs and problem was solved. Unintended consequence was that those guests who also needed the special wheelchair cars would be sent on a circuitous route to wait for their vehicle and thus end up waiting longer. CMs then highly recommended the use of FP and eventually GAC for these guests.

I initially did not get a GAC. I was touring the parks like everyone else getting FPs for rides with big lines and avoiding the ones that didn't have it until the line got smaller. Trouble was with my gnarled hands (my RA has left me with severe joint contractures all over including wrists and fingers that curl inward) I usually had problems physically manipulating a ticket/FP machine. CMs or guests would have to help me do it. So one day I was getting a FP for Pooh when the CM told me about GAC and suggested I ask for one. Then she could admit me into the ride where I'd wait for the wheelchair car that I needed and no other pedestrian guest could use. I thought GAC was just for those with hidden disabilities at the time. I still didn't immediately go for a pass because by then I had my FPs for Pooh. But later on I went to Buzz and encuntered another CM who pulled me out of the Standby lne (it was 20 mins) and gave me a FP with instructions to go get a GAC so she could admit me into the wheelchair vehicle line directly. I followed the advice, got a GAC and from then on used it as a way to get to my wheelie line in the most direct path possible.

Did it mean there were times I waited less than everyone else in Standby? Sure. GAC meant that over the years I didn't have to worry about whether there were FPs available or what time they were being distributed for. That level of flexibility proved invaluable as years went on and my health and stamina provided new challenges. In 1998 I could manage a 12-14 hour day at a park. Now I'm at a 6-8 hour limit with a more comfortable 5-6. (I get APs so I don't worry about "getting my money's worth" on day tickets.)

Under DAS I'll still not have to worry about whether FPs are available, but I also will not be able to do as many attractions during my day. I think that's the biggest reason some other guests (such as parents of Autistic kids) are crying foul. If one depended on GAC's easy access to rides to allow them to do 6-8 rides in 5 hours (the amount of time the disabled person can manage in a park), then DAS' waiting system provides a much less satisfactory 3-4 attractions.

I'm fortunate in that even with my GAC's flexibility, I did not use it so much I relied on it for my touring. 7 possible attractions were on my list for GAC, 3 with traditionally long Standbys means I'd have a card for 2.5 weeks and only use it 4 times. I can more easily incorporate DAS' Return Time strategy into my touring days and have minimal impact on what I can and cannot due. I'm still vulnerable to not being able to redeem my times if my health sours in the interim, but that's far less likely within 2 hours than what I'd see if I got stuck with a FP for 7 hours later.

The parts that irk me about DAS are the implementation and impetus for doing it. I'm not finding Disney's "10 minute Standby entrance only" reasonable. (That's when the rule says if Standby is under 10 mins, admit DAS holders. If over, give a Return Time. So for a wait of 15 mins, you give a Return Time of 5.) I'd much rather they adopted Universal's 30 minute rule since this better reflects the crowd situation inside a queue. Most every attraction with an 30 minute or under wait has a line that is so light it moves very quickly. (Yes there are some attractions like Peter Pan and IASW where that is not true.) My suggestion to Guest Relations and managers (after using DAS I gave ample feedback on my experience) was to start the clock at 30 minutes. If under 30, admit the DAS holder. If over, then subtract 10 minutes and have them come back. I suggested they look at what a guest can reasonably be expected to do in that Return Time window. Getting a pass at Star Tours for 5 minutes allows you just enough time to do what exactly? (Yes I know RT don't expire but the point of DAS is to make the guest wait just as long as people in the queue, not send them off to shop or something else.)

My other issue was the impetus for adopting DAS and doing away with GAC. Again as in the people renting wheelchairs, we had a situation where Disney allowed abusers to enter the program and instead of stopping them with better screening decided to just take away the access entirely thus hurting the people who genuinely needed it. DAS is setup thinking all about the fictional GAC abuser who used it to cheat the lines. That's why the Return Times are based on Standby waits and there's no consideration for the extra time it takes for a guest to use a wheelchair car. DAS does a great job of eliminating the abuse but it does a poor job of accommodating those with special needs.

These issues are ones I expect Disney to be looking at now and modifying the program to address. In a year's time, I expect DAS will probably be as beneficial to the disabled as GAC was, just in a different manner. The disabled will use it to pre-schedule busy attractions. I just hope Disney does a better job of keeping out the cheaters so it too isn't so heavily abused it has to be dispensed with. (I'm all for the photo ID and recording of just how often the pass is used so Disney can monitor potential abuse.)

Many attractions have dark queues that no matter which entrance you go into, DAS/GAC would not help. While I'm not familiar with all the special needs a person with impaired vision might have, I feel confident in saying that even if you do your best to plan around only visiting during daylight, those guests still encounter dark situations and nighttime at home, at their hotel, in new environments, in and out of the parks. Even during the day time, even for an average guest there are obstacles and situations where even I catch myself trying feel my way around or stumbling. Curbs, railroad track, strollers, ECVs, gift shops packed full of shelves, people stopping in the middle of paths, exiting a theater into the sun, going into dark areas like Ellen's Energy Adventure, Captain EO, Tower of Terror, Stitch's Great Escape, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Pirates, Nemo, its tough to be a bug, Dinosaur, etc. A DAS card won't lead these guests through the darkness or provide extra lighting. A DAS card won't let them avoid the line completely, they will still have to traverse aspects of a line in a darkened area. Even GAC wouldn't have done this for them. They would have gotten a stamp for "front row seating" which would provide the same accommodations as asking a cast member does now.

Nor do I hear that the visually-impaired are expecting DAS or GAC to help them in every situation. These people are only looking for it to assist them in situations where it is helpful. Such as the Finding Nemo attraction in EPCOT. With a GAC stamp, these guests were allowed to board inside the better-lit building at the exit where they park ECVs/wheelchairs and bypass the entry queue with it's dark, windy pathway. Now these guests are reporting they are being denied DAS and denied entry to the alternate entrance at the attraction because CMs there have not been trained properly to accommodate the need. Several have complained about it in hopes Disney improves DAS to include their needs and in the meantime have sworn off that particular attraction.

The stories about being denied "front row seating" are pertaining to Beauty and the Beast and Fantasmic. Again these were situations where under GAC there were clearly defined signals and rules for how to accommodate such guests. DAS dispensed with all of that so many guests are at the mercy of finding a CM who does understand, or calling on a manager. I'm rather surprised Disney did not do a better job of retraining their staff to deal with these requests. And again in a year's time, I expect these sorts of things will be ironed out with DAS.

In all cases these were situations that were properly addressed under GAC but not addressed under DAS. For the guest it means the system is broken when it worked just fine before. Disney should have managed that better so they didn't break things that worked.

At Buzz Lightyear, guests traveling in ECVs and ESVs are required to transfer to a wheelchair to enter the building. Wheelchair can be a manual wheelchair, an electric wheelchair with a joystick, or a stroller acting as wheelchair. ECVs and ESVs are not allowed because their is limited room to store them at the exit while they ride, they are harder to manuever through the queue, and they cannot be loaded onto the designated wheelchair accessible vehicle if they needed to. There is a larger percentage of ECV users that can walk short distances or transfer easily anyways. Limiting whether or not they can come inside does help make that wheelchair line shorter. If Toy Story Midway Mania were do implement this, they would provide attraction wheelchairs that guests could borrow allowing those in ECVs to still be accommodated with a wheelchair if necessary so they won't be standing. The ones that can walk short distances and transfer may realize they can do so without their ECV so long as it is with a Fastpass they are redeeming. It would cut down the amount of people waiting in line for the vehicle. If you are limited to a wheelchair, regular guests, regular wheelchair guests, and GAC with the wheelchair accessible line stamp would all be going through the regular queue anyways and at merge be told to go to the wheelchair line. After merge, regular guests still have to travel up stairs, through a switchback, across a bridge, and down stairs, so post merge isn't always boarded right away either. Ideally, Toy Story should look into a way to send guests who can't climb stairs but don't need a wheelchair vehicle to the regular loading area to allow those who need the ride vehicle more preference.

I agree Toy Story and even Finding Nemo are not good queues for ECVs. (My last trip there a lady's ECV broke down in the middle of the windy pathway and created a huge traffic jam for everyone. My party has a lot of experience with these mechanical devices so were able to assist her when the CM was out of his depths. We became CMs For The Day, both assisting in getting the ECV moving again and directing pedestrian guests around us so they could ride the attraction. I reported the incident to Guest Relations and suggested that a queue line that is not wide enough for an ECV to turn around should not be considered accessible for them. The thing I noticed is that when you have one ECV breakdown, another cannot pass it in that small an aisle. I already know ECVs are not as easily pushed manually as you can a wheelchair.)

But there's an unintended consequence of banning ECVs from these queues. Many people lack the ability to propel themselves in a manual wheelchair. So now you are giving a guest two choices: (1) get assistance from a CM in being pushed through the queue or (2) don't ride unless you can stand in the line. As in my case, not every ECV guest can transfer to a manual wheelchair and still be able to get around. (From a report on another board, one lady with MS and blurred vision was denied a DAS and told to rent an ECV at EPCOT last week. Trouble is her blurred vision means she cannot safely drive an ECV and her MS prohibits her from pushing a manual wheelchair.)

FWIW Aladdin's Magic Carpet Ride is an example of a wheelchair vehicle that cannot take a power wheelchair. When I rode it (once only) I went with my then 7 yo niece and requested assistance from a CM as the guidebook said. She then helped me transfer into a manual chair and pushed me through the exit to board the attraction. My niece could not push me nor could I do it myself. Pirates is another attraction that you must transfer to a manual wheelchair. I go on that with a family member who is also strong enough to lift me into the boat.

I'm always mindful of what my power wheelchair and my body can and cannot do. I have one of those fancy tilting wheelchairs I don't bring to Disney because it is bigger, bulkier and far less amenable to attractions. I know I can transfer to a manual chair, but I also know that means I am now dealing with another set of accessibility/independence issues.

These accommodations, while nice, do create a hassle for the guest and limit their ability to do the attraction. If we broadened such procedures to Toy Story, then we may be creating a situation where fewer guests cannot do it simply because of their disability. And it's not a hindrance for safety reasons (under ADA you can deny a disabled person entry to a ride if it is unsafe for them) but merely practicality.

Toy Story really needs to expand into that building next door so they can re-engineer how they do the loading for everyone. It bugs the CMs as it does guests that this attraction has a perennially long wait simply because it has such an awfully long loading time and small capacity. Great game, fun ride, but so poorly designed.

GAC didn't always accommodate everyone's needs. DAS won't either. In fact, there are many instances where some guests with disabilities just can't or aren't accommodated. Some attractions are not wheelchair accessible period like the Peoplemover and Swiss Family Treehouse. Most scripted attractions have Guest Assistance Packets that have written scripts for guests with hearing impairments to follow. For those with visual impairments and hearing impairments, to my knowledge, there are not any braille scripts for them. Let's say a guest travels to the park in a standing mobility device or ESV because they can't sit down, what rides can you stand up on? A guest has a latex allergy and do everything they can including get information from guest relations on things avoid that might trigger a reaction. The balloons at Disney do have latex in them, what if wind cause a balloon to from another guest to bump into the guest with an allergy. Speaking of guests with allergies, if I have a concern with a menu item, I have to wait for the chef to come out and talk to me about it and it may even take longer to prepare yet I still had to wait in line to get to that point. What gives? Shouldn't Disney track how many guests have certain allergies have have designated food prep areas for those foods to have them ready for me when I request certain items? What if my child prone to epileptic seizures due to strobes and flashing lights? Do you know how many attractions have strobes or flashing lights that they can't do? What about if I am guest that has a custom built wheelchair to meet my needs that has the seat tilted at an angle and an extra spot on the back for my oxygen tank. Many attractions have designated cars, but my custom wheelchair still can't fit out half of them and I can't transfer. What if I have a severe anxiety in crowds? I try to visit during the off season, but the fireworks at Magic Kingdom are very busy. I even locate the designed wheelchair viewing, but getting to and out of that area still requires us to deal with crowds?

All true. There are many attractions I have never been able to do or had to stop doing because my disability prohibited it. GAC has never ensured the logs on Splash Mountain had the leg room I needed to sit safely and ride, for instance. What it did do was assist me in enjoying the attractions I could do.

Everyone has their own needs disability or not. Everyone is going to encounter some indifference known or unknown. All you can do is do your best. All Disney can do is do their best.

My contention is that Disney did not start out the gate with DAS with their best. They ignored a great many disabilities and situations they had years of experience accommodating... all because they were too focused on stopping the mythical abuser. I feel worse for the people who had their "once every 5 year" trip planned during this change only to get caught by all the snafus. They're the ones who deserve our sympathy when they complain.

Extra Magic Hours in the evening have been shorted from 3 hours to 2 hours now. I was taking that into account.

I'm secretly hoping they go back to 3 hours for NYE week. Please, please, please!

There are guests who have return times before and during the fireworks. There are guests who will choose to not watch the fireworks and still use this line. There will naturally be a wave of guests after parades, fireworks, show let outs, etc. Demand is different at different times of the day and different times of the year. How do you account for that? Even with a return card, those guests are either getting in the regular line and getting processed or getting a return card to return through the Fastpass line and then get processed. The return card does offer the additional benefit of returning anytime after the return time given. So a family that waits in line is forced to wait with the same high demand versus a return card and/or DAS allows them to potentially return at a less busy time. In any case, the wheelchair line is separate from the Fastpass & Standby lines. With GAC, with DAS, without either, or with a return card, it is hard to tell what that demand and line might be at any given time. There are times when large special needs groups in wheelchairs visit the parks and cause these lines to get outrageously long. We're talking 20 wheelchairs in a group and they can't transfer and they are all together. You do the best you can acknowledging that they is going to be a wait of some kind even for that one group and that they all wont' be together on the ride at the same time.

You gave me a brilliant idea!

First off just so you know, they close Pixar Lane around 11:30pm before the fireworks and keep it closed until afterward. This is for safety reasons because the fireworks debris falls in the lane. No one is able to wait in line or ride TSM then. The crowd is placed in front of the Sorcerer Mickey Hat. After fireworks they make their way back to Little Mermaid and Pixar Lane as soon as the rope barriers are dropped and CMs admit them. I've followed the crowd enough times to see how it works. I've also tried going the back way through Osborne and encountered another barrier there. Unless you're going to barrel you're way through the crowd, you're not getting to TSM until 12:30am.

But you reminded me Return Times don't expire. So if I were to go over to TSM earlier in the evening and get a RT, then maybe I could just arrive at TSM after midnight and redeem it. That may be the way to work the system.

I talked with the managers at TSM about how they intended to handle NYE when I was there two weeks ago. At the time they hadn't even thought about it. So my plan was to just check in with them on NYE to find out. This idea may be a way for me to still stick to my NYE ritual of TSM then Osborne without having to give something up. Thanks for making me think about it.

Of course this assumes they will honor the Return Times during EMH. I've heard reports the last week that they were refusing to give out RTs during parties, the last hour a park is opened and EMHs because FastPass is not open.

 

[BroganMc]

Eek! Did you see the "No FastPasses Today" thread? Sounds like TSM is royally messed up in the FP+ trial. People are reporting the FP line is backed up 30 mins in October. That line is never long. Now I'm worried my plan to ride TSM on NYE in time to also enjoy Osborne will be foiled after all.

I also have yet to receive an invite to the trial. I might be in one of those Catch 22 situations. DVC Member staying on DVC points with a DVC-discounted Premium Annual Pass. My resort (Saratoga Springs) doesn't start the trial until later this week. I've yet to receive an invite to try FP+ for my NYE trip (I check in Dec 29). The reservation and my ticket is loaded into my MDE account. I might be excluded from the program anyway.

And here CMs were telling me how with DAS I could augment my travels with paper FP and FP+. Yeah, not!

Oh well, stay tuned.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Eek! Did you see the "No FastPasses Today" thread? Sounds like TSM is royally messed up in the FP+ trial. People are reporting the FP line is backed up 30 mins in October. That line is never long. Now I'm worried my plan to ride TSM on NYE in time to also enjoy Osborne will be foiled after all.

I also have yet to receive an invite to the trial. I might be in one of those Catch 22 situations. DVC Member staying on DVC points with a DVC-discounted Premium Annual Pass. My resort (Saratoga Springs) doesn't start the trial until later this week. I've yet to receive an invite to try FP+ for my NYE trip (I check in Dec 29). The reservation and my ticket is loaded into my MDE account. I might be excluded from the program anyway.

And here CMs were telling me how with DAS I could augment my travels with paper FP and FP+. Yeah, not!

Oh well, stay tuned.

I just sent you a reply on the "No FastPasses Today" thread, keep checking MDE and make sure your PAP is correctly associated and you should see FP+ availability at day 60 for your vacation.

BTW, NYE at WDW is always a great time.

 

[Gabe1]

Best Wheelchair GAC spoof. King of Queens, Season 8

I was watching King of Queens last night and bingo I found on YouTube this morning. It has Arthur and Deacon's family at a theme park in crowded queues and Arthur getting a wheelchair to go to the front of the line. Given this thread I laughed my fool head off considering how long ago the writers of King of Queens recognized the issues with GAC @ WDW, they even go into the men's room.

It starts at about the 10 minute mark on the YouTube if you don't want to watch the whole episode.



" $100 to keep a disable war veteran happy, getting your son to the front of every line, priceless! "

 

[BroganMc]

Best Wheelchair GAC spoof. King of Queens, Season 8

" $100 to keep a disable war veteran happy, getting your son to the front of every line, priceless! "

The ironic thing is renting a wheelchair to get into an alternate entrance was dealt with a decade ago. There are only maybe 2-3 places in all of WDW you ever have an alternate entrance for a wheelchair. So the joke is on the idiot who tries this.

And still I go back to my main contention that doing away with an access system that helped the disabled because some disreputable people lied to use it is not an appropriate response. Handicapped parking, automatic doors, handicapped bathroom stalls and curb cuts are frequently used and abused by people who don't need them. Should we do away with them too?

Screen the abusers better. Require doctor's notes. At least try to make an effort to punish the people who deserve it.

 

[BroganMc]

I just sent you a reply on the "No FastPasses Today" thread, keep checking MDE and make sure your PAP is correctly associated and you should see FP+ availability at day 60 for your vacation.

BTW, NYE at WDW is always a great time.

I saw that and responded. October 30th is when I should expect MDE to open my FP+ window? Cool! Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep checking and follow your advice.

I love going to WDW for NYE. People think I'm crazy when I say I'm going then. They think I'm going for the daytime touring and rides. I don't. I turn into a hermit and only come out at night. All bundled up in my heavy winter clothes, colorful lights on my chair and ready to just enjoy all the decorations. Osborne Lights is one of my favorite places. If we have nice weather and I can go out during the day, I go soak in the jacuzzi at the resort or stroll around the hotels.

We do regular park touring during our Sep/Oct and April/May trips when crowds are lighter and the weather is warmer.

Our plan for NYE this year is to fly down on Sun Dec 29, go to the festivities 30th and 31st, unknown on the 1st, and then take the Disney Dream 3-day cruise on Thurs-Sun (Jan 2-5). We just paid for the cruise and arranged all the transportation. I'm hoping we catch some decent weather and no one gets sick. We did two trips one December (1st weekend in Dec with family and NYE). I was sick all of January & February as a result. Bad bronchitis and ear infections from the cold weather and airplane trips. Good memories though.

 

[Goofyernmost]

And still I go back to my main contention that doing away with an access system that helped the disabled because some disreputable people lied to use it is not an appropriate response. Handicapped parking, automatic doors, handicapped bathroom stalls and curb cuts are frequently used and abused by people who don't need them. Should we do away with them too?

Well, the handicapped parking is the only good argument used there. A non-handicapped person is not denying a disabled person anything by using the rest. An able person can use a wheelchair ramp as well but it doesn't stop a disabled person from using it. That is why Handicapped Parking is the only one that is backed up by a law and is for Handicapped ONLY. The rest are there for convenience but not exclusive.

 

[peachykeen]

The ironic thing is renting a wheelchair to get into an alternate entrance was dealt with a decade ago. There are only maybe 2-3 places in all of WDW you ever have an alternate entrance for a wheelchair. So the joke is on the idiot who tries this.

You are correct that a wheelchair ALONE won't get you into the alternate entrance. A lot of the queues are/were wheelchair accesible. But what started happening was people would rent a wheelchair AND come to Guest Relations for a "Wheelchair" stamped GAC (this stamp was not intended as an "immediate entrance" tool).

Eventually, the parks (especially MK) replaced the "Wheelchair" stamp with the "Alternate Entrance" stamp. This meant that simply by having a wheelchair, your GAC was stamped for "Alternate Entrance," meaning FP line usually (or a side-door).

I mentioned a week or so ago that Epcot seems to be the ones having the most issues with switching to DAS. They were also the park that was least likely to offer a Guest in a wheelchair the Alternate Entrance stamp. They would do everything they could to only stamp Wheelchair. MK didn't even have the wheelchair stamp. Why the inconsistency? Talk to the park VPs. Anyways, what this led to was MK Cast Members not knowing what the "wheelchair" stamp was (which would have made the Guest wait in the standard queue, usually) and sending the Guest to City Hall to get Alternate Entrance (which would send them through FP).

This info must just get around, because Guests with wheelchairs usually knew to ask specifically for the "card with the arrows (Alternate)." Whether it was internet, or word of mouth, or both, I don't know.

So while you are correct that initially wheelchairs weren't supposed to get "front of line" access, in the end it turned out that they did, in general.