News FPs cancelled when Hotel room cancelled

[RSoxNo1]

As one of the limited weirdos who doesn't have a home resort and visits all of them occasionally...

I actually did really, really enjoy Florida's system the most.

I understand it appeals to vacationers and planners (both of which I am), but I don't think people realize that is WDW's primary market.

I think it works great for WDW and wouldn't work at all for DL. It's a great system and a truly marketable/valuable perk for wanting to pay the obscene on-property prices.

There is no other resort like WDW. Guests at DL wouldn’t book in advance like this. Locals don’t plan in advance they plan day before or day of.

WDW is a resort/hotel/time share business. Most other destinations are park focused.

It could theoretically work for Paris, but I think that's more been a monetary limitation.

Shanghai just gives you fast passes at the hotel, which is essentially the same perk in a round about way.

The WDW system is an unnecessarily complicated one whereby uninformed guests are at a significant disadvantage. You can try to justify the explanation with the "vacation destination" argument or peace of mind for guaranteed Fastpass argument, but it doesn't change the in park application.

Disney World used to be structured in a way where for the most part, all guests receive fairly similar treatment. While I understand that the structure has shifted, that shift is drastic and unforgiving.

While anecdotal I'll share a perfect example from my recent trip. Our second to last day we had planned on going to Epcot 60 days in advance. After discussing it the night before with my family we decided we wanted to go to the Animal Kingdom. In doing so, there were no Fastpasses available for a group of 5 (or any size for that matter) for the next day for any of the following attractions:

• DINOSAUR
• Kilimanjaro Safaris
• Expedition Everest
• Na'vi River Journey
• Flight of Passage

The day in question was MLK day. Touring plans predicted it at a 6 out of 10, and then after the crowds that day they observed a 10 out of 10. I have an autistic brother so we have a DAS and were able to ride Na'vi River Journey and Kilimanjaro Safaris with that, but your average family wouldn't have been able to make the change and had anything close to effective touring.

Having to decide where you're going 30, 60 or 90 days in advance is unnecessarily stressful. Considering the cost of an average Disney vacation, that level of stress doesn't have to be a part of it. Depending on group size, the manipulation of the Fastpass+ system might as well be 3D chess. The system everywhere else in the world is far simpler and far less stress inducing.

Add in the fact that the mobile app doesn't scale properly on iOS devices (no hyperbole, it crashed 40% of the time I tried to change Fastpass reservations on an iPhone XR) and it's truly a miserable system.

 

[Rteetz]

The WDW system is an unnecessarily complicated one whereby uninformed guests are at a significant disadvantage. You can try to justify the explanation with the "vacation destination" argument or peace of mind for guaranteed Fastpass argument, but it doesn't change the in park application.

Disney World used to be structured in a way where for the most part, all guests receive fairly similar treatment. While I understand that the structure has shifted, that shift is drastic and unforgiving.

While anecdotal I'll share a perfect example from my recent trip. Our second to last day we had planned on going to Epcot 60 days in advance. After discussing it the night before with my family we decided we wanted to go to the Animal Kingdom. In doing so, there were no Fastpasses available for a group of 5 (or any size for that matter) for the next day for any of the following attractions:

• DINOSAUR
• Kilimanjaro Safaris
• Expedition Everest
• Na'vi River Journey
• Flight of Passage

The day in question was MLK day. Touring plans predicted it at a 6 out of 10, and then after the crowds that day they observed a 10 out of 10. I have an autistic brother so we have a DAS and were able to ride Na'vi River Journey and Kilimanjaro Safaris with that, but your average family wouldn't have been able to make the change and had anything close to effective touring.

Having to decide where you're going 30, 60 or 90 days in advance is unnecessarily stressful. Considering the cost of an average Disney vacation, that level of stress doesn't have to be a part of it. Depending on group size, the manipulation of the Fastpass+ system might as well be 3D chess. The system everywhere else in the world is far simpler and far less stress inducing.

Add in the fact that the mobile app doesn't scale properly on iOS devices (no hyperbole, it crashed 40% of the time I tried to change Fastpass reservations on an iPhone XR) and it's truly a miserable system.

The app is definitely not great which no Disney website is.

Personally I don’t have a problem with booking 60 days in advance. Certainly it doesn’t work for everyone but I don’t think you can say that’s the sole reason it hasn’t been rolled out elsewhere. I think it hasn’t been rolled out elsewhere because each park/resort is so different in terms of how people tour. Like I said something like this would never work at Disneyland. Paris would probably be the only other place. Definitely not in China.

To me it is what it is and I don’t see them backing away from the advanced planning anytime soon even with date based tickets. Even paper fastpasses weren’t perfect.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The app is definitely not great which no Disney website is.

Personally I don’t have a problem with booking 60 days in advance. Certainly it doesn’t work for everyone but I don’t think you can say that’s the sole reason it hasn’t been rolled out elsewhere. I think it hasn’t been rolled out elsewhere because each park/resort is so different in terms of how people tour. Like I said something like this would never work at Disneyland. Paris would probably be the only other place. Definitely not in China.

To me it is what it is and I don’t see them backing away from the advanced planning anytime soon even with date based tickets. Even paper fastpasses weren’t perfect.

Next Gen was an abhorrent failure, but it could have a saving grace if they wiped out the unnecessarily complicated system. I'm fairly certain I understand the system better than the executives that are funding it. I know/knew the loopholes and applaud them for fixing those. I understand the unnecessary complexities of the ticketing system and other daily procedures that create operational nightmares.

Nearly every CM I encountered either at Guest Relations or at attractions that had to use the app for our benefit (adding days to our tickets or booking a DAS reservation) complained. It's a $2 billion system and I could have designed a better/simpler system in my 11th grade computer science class. What's worse, is that Disneyland has a better system and they won't use it in Florida.

The bulk of Next Gen's implementation has been done under the guise of operational efficiency. The problem is it's operationally inefficient relative to previous implementations of similar items and doesn't universally benefit guests as a benefit.

Consider "transaction time" for simply acquiring a Fastpass under old rules and new rules. Old rules required you to travel to the attraction to get the Fastpass, but once there the transaction was efficient. Insert ticket into a machine and get a return time. The new system fixes the biggest issue with the old system (having to go to the attraction) but creates inefficiencies with the selection process.

Upon returning to the Fastpass line, the new "transaction" requires a scan and an approval whereas previously the CM would look at a ticket and allow you in the queue. Places like Thunder Mountain are notorious for backups that could easily be solved by either more scanning polls, putting the poll deeper into the queue (so guests don't spill out into the walkway) or another alternative.

Transaction time for AP holders at the parking gates are also wildly inefficient. Scan the AP, check for ID. If you link a photo to the ID it would speed it up, or (and I know this is crazy) simply don't disrupt the day of 100% of your guests because a handful of people are trying to get free parking or a discount on a $4 bottle of soda.

The motivation of the Magic Band was to speed up transaction times. It's not.

The motivation of Fastpass+ was operational efficiency. It's not doing that.

 

[Ripken10]

Next Gen was an abhorrent failure, but it could have a saving grace if they wiped out the unnecessarily complicated system. I'm fairly certain I understand the system better than the executives that are funding it. I know/knew the loopholes and applaud them for fixing those. I understand the unnecessary complexities of the ticketing system and other daily procedures that create operational nightmares.

Nearly every CM I encountered either at Guest Relations or at attractions that had to use the app for our benefit (adding days to our tickets or booking a DAS reservation) complained. It's a $2 billion system and I could have designed a better system in my 11th grade computer science class. What's worse, is that Disneyland has a better system and they won't use it in Florida.

The bulk of Next Gen's implementation has been done under the guise of operational efficiency. The problem is it's operationally inefficient relative to previous implementations of similar items and doesn't universally benefit guests as a benefit.

Consider "transaction time" for simply acquiring a Fastpass under old rules and new rules. Old rules required you to travel to the attraction to get the Fastpass, but once there the transaction was efficient. Insert ticket into a machine and get a return time. The new system fixes the biggest issue with the old system (having to go to the attraction) but creates inefficiencies with the selection process.

Upon returning to the Fastpass line, the new "transaction" requires a scan and an approval whereas previously the CM would look at a ticket and allow you in the queue. Places like Thunder Mountain are notorious for backups that could easily be solved by either more scanning polls, putting the poll deeper into the queue (so guests don't spill out into the walkway) or another alternative.

Transaction time for AP holders at the parking gates are also wildly inefficient. Scan the AP, check for ID. If you link a photo to the ID it would speed it up, or (and I know this is crazy) simply don't disrupt the day of 100% of your guests because a handful of people are trying to get free parking or a discount on a $4 bottle of soda.

The motivation of the Magic Band was to speed up transaction times. It's not.

The motivation of Fastpass+ was operational efficiency. It's not doing that.

Wow, usually I agree or understand most of your points. But you lost me at "I could have designed a better system in my 11th grace computer science class". Couldn't be more false. Yes, the system is not perfect, but it is more taxed than probably any other system out there. The system is so complicated, and it isn't like you to make such false claims like that. I know someone involved in creating the system, a very smart person, and he is just one of a huge group of people that created it and continue to work on it. My particular profession can also guarantee that no individual could have created a better system, let alone an 11th grader. I get you don't think it's perfect, but you went well overboard. And I accept that from most people, but not a poster with a lot more experience and knowledge then that. I get some people have no idea how complex this system can be and can only see the problems they have had. But you know better.

 

[DisneyJoe]

Wow, usually I agree or understand most of your points. But you lost me at "I could have designed a better system in my 11th grace computer science class". Couldn't be more false. Yes, the system is not perfect, but it is more taxed than probably any other system out there. The system is so complicated, and it isn't like you to make such false claims like that. I know someone involved in creating the system, a very smart person, and he is just one of a huge group of people that created it and continue to work on it. My particular profession can also guarantee that no individual could have created a better system, let alone an 11th grader. I get you don't think it's perfect, but you went well overboard. And I accept that from most people, but not a poster with a lot more experience and knowledge then that. I get some people have no idea how complex this system can be and can only see the problems they have had. But you know better.

I agree that it is a good system, however, I don't believe they have ever taken the time to fully and completely test it under heavy load or fully test each new incremental release.

. There is no reason in this day of load balancers, distributed computing, cloud machines that can be spun up on a whim when resources are needed etc that this should happen over and over - and it has been happening for years. I am sure the team designing is intelligent, however, perhaps they aren't being given the budget to test and scale it properly? As Nike says "Just Do It"

 

[nickys]

I agree that it is a good system, however, I don't believe they have ever taken the time to fully and completely test it under heavy load or fully test each new incremental release.

There is no reason in this day of load balancers, distributed computing, cloud machines that can be spun up on a whim when resources are needed etc that this should happen over and over - and it has been happening for years. I am sure the team designing is intelligent, however, perhaps they aren't being given the budget to test and scale it properly? As Nike says "Just Do It"

Yep this! I too had a previous career in IT, as a systems analyst and programmer. There’s no way this was tested properly. I think the individual components were / are tested, but the system and integration testing isn’t thorough enough. And they seem to have skipped the capacity tests altogether, probably because of an attitude of “it must be implemented, regardless” from the top.

Just as when my company outsourced nearly all system testing, the testing teams simply didn’t have the systems knowledge to test the interfaces properly. Result - post implementation problems soared and they then created an in-house team to deal with them. Rather than sort out the testing problems in the first place.

 

[BrianLo]

The WDW system is an unnecessarily complicated one whereby uninformed guests are at a significant disadvantage. You can try to justify the explanation with the "vacation destination" argument or peace of mind for guaranteed Fastpass argument, but it doesn't change the in park application.

Disney World used to be structured in a way where for the most part, all guests receive fairly similar treatment. While I understand that the structure has shifted, that shift is drastic and unforgiving.

While anecdotal I'll share a perfect example from my recent trip. Our second to last day we had planned on going to Epcot 60 days in advance. After discussing it the night before with my family we decided we wanted to go to the Animal Kingdom. In doing so, there were no Fastpasses available for a group of 5 (or any size for that matter) for the next day for any of the following attractions:

• DINOSAUR
• Kilimanjaro Safaris
• Expedition Everest
• Na'vi River Journey
• Flight of Passage

The day in question was MLK day. Touring plans predicted it at a 6 out of 10, and then after the crowds that day they observed a 10 out of 10. I have an autistic brother so we have a DAS and were able to ride Na'vi River Journey and Kilimanjaro Safaris with that, but your average family wouldn't have been able to make the change and had anything close to effective touring.

Having to decide where you're going 30, 60 or 90 days in advance is unnecessarily stressful. Considering the cost of an average Disney vacation, that level of stress doesn't have to be a part of it. Depending on group size, the manipulation of the Fastpass+ system might as well be 3D chess. The system everywhere else in the world is far simpler and far less stress inducing.

Add in the fact that the mobile app doesn't scale properly on iOS devices (no hyperbole, it crashed 40% of the time I tried to change Fastpass reservations on an iPhone XR) and it's truly a miserable system.

Admittedly I have not used it enough that I actually have had issues with it crashing or not working.

I think ultimately there are two camps - people for whom planning causes them stress (especially within context of a vacation) and people for whom planning brings them joy.

That’s pretty much the clinch of who really likes the system and who doesn’t.

The operational / transaction things you cite still exist with Maxpass and their gates. Imposing a gate deeper into the queue would be horrible with people having to head up stream out of the queue when they don’t have a valid FP. What there really needs to be is more tap points that merge into the queue. You also forget about lines spilling out of Fastpass pickup areas. I’ve seen 20 minute waits to get RSR fastpass, a line wrapping around the American waterfront to get TSMM in Tokyo, or 20-30 minutes for pickup FP from kiosks in Shanghai before their new system. That’s ultimately the thing that improved with the electronic system pickup and distribution.



I think MyMagic+ as a whole was a boondoggle... but the infrastructure in Florida was sorely needed and the platform they’ve built has good bones (but from what I am hearing needs tinkering)

 

[Rteetz]

Next Gen was an abhorrent failure, but it could have a saving grace if they wiped out the unnecessarily complicated system. I'm fairly certain I understand the system better than the executives that are funding it. I know/knew the loopholes and applaud them for fixing those. I understand the unnecessary complexities of the ticketing system and other daily procedures that create operational nightmares.

Nearly every CM I encountered either at Guest Relations or at attractions that had to use the app for our benefit (adding days to our tickets or booking a DAS reservation) complained. It's a $2 billion system and I could have designed a better system in my 11th grade computer science class. What's worse, is that Disneyland has a better system and they won't use it in Florida.

The bulk of Next Gen's implementation has been done under the guise of operational efficiency. The problem is it's operationally inefficient relative to previous implementations of similar items and doesn't universally benefit guests as a benefit.

Consider "transaction time" for simply acquiring a Fastpass under old rules and new rules. Old rules required you to travel to the attraction to get the Fastpass, but once there the transaction was efficient. Insert ticket into a machine and get a return time. The new system fixes the biggest issue with the old system (having to go to the attraction) but creates inefficiencies with the selection process.

Upon returning to the Fastpass line, the new "transaction" requires a scan and an approval whereas previously the CM would look at a ticket and allow you in the queue. Places like Thunder Mountain are notorious for backups that could easily be solved by either more scanning polls, putting the poll deeper into the queue (so guests don't spill out into the walkway) or another alternative.

Transaction time for AP holders at the parking gates are also wildly inefficient. Scan the AP, check for ID. If you link a photo to the ID it would speed it up, or (and I know this is crazy) simply don't disrupt the day of 100% of your guests because a handful of people are trying to get free parking or a discount on a $4 bottle of soda.

The motivation of the Magic Band was to speed up transaction times. It's not.

The motivation of Fastpass+ was operational efficiency. It's not doing that.

MyMagic+ definitely wasn’t a breakaway success and had tons of issues and cost overruns (much like any Disney project).

That said I’ll agree to disagree with much of what you said. I never said the system was perfect or didn’t need more improvements. It certainly does but for the most part it works for what guests need it for.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Not sure what your point is about AP holders.

AP holders are restricted to the 30 days advance booking unless they’re staying onsite. That’s why so many locals with the Florida APs have yet to get an FP for Slinky or FoP.

And they also have a limit of holding 7 days worth unless they’re staying onsite.

Edit: I see @Rteetz beta me to it, should have read to the end first!

The biggest issue is of course the resort reservation folks who have a 30 day advantage over everyone else. Ideally for everyone else, their advantage would be removed, but we know Disney is not going to do that because they want as many incentives as possible to stay in their resorts. A problem with AP holders is that they have no actual dedication to show up for the Fastpasses they are allowed to schedule, so they end up further taking up slots that end up going unused. I have been guilty of it myself. A friend of mine has a long list of other AP holder friends that he will schedule FoP or Slinky for if he happens to see them pop up, just because.

 

[Tom Morrow]

I do have to say though I'm impressed with how far the MDX system has come, aside from the phone apps which still suck. For instance, on my account, I was managing one of my friends, who had visited and had some leftover non-expiring water park days under his name, but on my account. On his next visit he decided to make his own account and purchase tickets under it. When I added his new account as a friend under my account, the system automatically knew that it was the same person I had been managing and automatically transferred the leftover water park days to his new account. In the early days of MDX, stuff like this would have been a complicated nightmare with long visits to guest relations to fix.

 

[Rteetz]

Other sites are reporting this now as well.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Wow, usually I agree or understand most of your points. But you lost me at "I could have designed a better system in my 11th grace computer science class". Couldn't be more false. Yes, the system is not perfect, but it is more taxed than probably any other system out there. The system is so complicated, and it isn't like you to make such false claims like that. I know someone involved in creating the system, a very smart person, and he is just one of a huge group of people that created it and continue to work on it. My particular profession can also guarantee that no individual could have created a better system, let alone an 11th grader. I get you don't think it's perfect, but you went well overboard. And I accept that from most people, but not a poster with a lot more experience and knowledge then that. I get some people have no idea how complex this system can be and can only see the problems they have had. But you know better.

You just identified why I said I can design a better system. It is unnnecessarily complicated. I’m not saying what they designed isn’t impressive. I’m saying it doesn’t need to be as technologically complicated as it is.

Perhaps I didn’t phrase it well, but I meant that as demeaning to my abilities in 11th grade. By that I mean that a simpler approach would be more effective. They had that and they “fixed” it.

 

[nickys]

Other sites are reporting this now as well.

Yeah, noticed that the site which shall not be named has it as confirmed. Without a credit for you either, which considering you broke this here and on the DIS is “frankly” annoying, but not unexpected I guess. Same old story!

 

[eliza61nyc]

The WDW system is an unnecessarily complicated one whereby uninformed guests are at a significant disadvantage. You can try to justify the explanation with the "vacation destination" argument or peace of mind for guaranteed Fastpass argument, but it doesn't change the in park application.


The day in question was MLK day. Touring plans predicted it at a 6 out of 10, and then after the crowds that day they observed a 10 out of 10. I have an autistic brother so we have a DAS and were able to ride Na'vi River Journey and Kilimanjaro Safaris with that, but your average family wouldn't have been able to make the change and had anything close to effective touring.

Having to decide where you're going 30, 60 or 90 days in advance is unnecessarily stressful. Considering the cost of an average Disney vacation, that level of stress doesn't have to be a part of it. Depending on group size, the manipulation of the Fastpass+ system might as well be 3D chess. The system everywhere else in the world is far simpler and far less stress inducing.

Add in the fact that the mobile app doesn't scale properly on iOS devices (no hyperbole, it crashed 40% of the time I tried to change Fastpass reservations on an iPhone XR) and it's truly a miserable system.

Hey Rosox, I have to respectfully disagree
. I find being able to book my rides 90 days out absolutely removes stress. You are comparing a place that is like no other in the world to the world. you can't. every time I go I see tons of families stress from NOT having plans. walking around trying to figure out a map or what ride to do next. IMO picking our rides 60 days out eliminates all that. Yes, it 100% cuts down on some spontaneity, as you said if you change you mind at the last minutes you have to do standby..

Next you are comparing a holiday. A day guaranteed to be packed. sorry, I blame the family. you absolutely cannot think on a major holiday you should be able to bounce around as you want. This is not exclusive to Disney, with many popular tourist destinations, you go on a major holiday and then want to change your mind at the last minute you're screwed.


Effective touring and spontaneity are imo two unrelated things. I've gone to the world at the last minute with the understanding that doing so means I'm going to "go with the flow", that is not a result of the fp booking system.

lastly, most of the world operates on a 2 or 4 guest scenario. large groups and families have always had it rough. I know first hand, trying to plan a large group vacation to Europe. the land of doing things 2X2.

 

[DisneyJoe]

The biggest issue is of course the resort reservation folks who have a 30 day advantage over everyone else. Ideally for everyone else, their advantage would be removed, but we know Disney is not going to do that because they want as many incentives as possible to stay in their resorts. A problem with AP holders is that they have no actual dedication to show up for the Fastpasses they are allowed to schedule, so they end up further taking up slots that end up going unused. I have been guilty of it myself. A friend of mine has a long list of other AP holder friends that he will schedule FoP or Slinky for if he happens to see them pop up, just because.

You know that more than Disney owned resorts get 60 days, right?

 

[The_Jobu]

Touring plans predicted it at a 6 out of 10, and then after the crowds that day they observed a 10 out of 10.

Unfortunately, lately crowd calendars have been a lot more miss than hit.

 

[iowamomof4]

Uninformed guests also didn't understand getting to the park early and sending a "runner" to grab fastpasses or whatever the system used to be (my first trip was in 2015, so I never experienced that - thank goodness!). Uninformed guests will always be among us and will always be at a disadvantage over guests who have done some research. That wouldn't change even if you completely eliminated fastpasses and went to 100% standby! There would still be some strategy involved in effective touring that some would know about and others would not.

 

[JohnD]

Not sure what your point is about AP holders.

AP holders are restricted to the 30 days advance booking unless they’re staying onsite. That’s why so many locals with the Florida APs have yet to get an FP for Slinky or FoP.

And they also have a limit of holding 7 days worth unless they’re staying onsite.

Edit: I see @Rteetz beta me to it, should have read to the end first!

Agree. I’m an AP holder and made a last minute trip to WDW over MLK weekend. FPs for SDD and FOP among others were no longer available.

 

[nickys]

The biggest issue is of course the resort reservation folks who have a 30 day advantage over everyone else. Ideally for everyone else, their advantage would be removed, but we know Disney is not going to do that because they want as many incentives as possible to stay in their resorts. A problem with AP holders is that they have no actual dedication to show up for the Fastpasses they are allowed to schedule, so they end up further taking up slots that end up going unused. I have been guilty of it myself. A friend of mine has a long list of other AP holder friends that he will schedule FoP or Slinky for if he happens to see them pop up, just because.

If FPs go unused, the stand-by line benefits. You won’t notice a difference because the vast majority of FPs probably do get used.

 

[JohnD]

The biggest issue is of course the resort reservation folks who have a 30 day advantage over everyone else. Ideally for everyone else, their advantage would be removed, but we know Disney is not going to do that because they want as many incentives as possible to stay in their resorts. A problem with AP holders is that they have no actual dedication to show up for the Fastpasses they are allowed to schedule, so they end up further taking up slots that end up going unused. I have been guilty of it myself. A friend of mine has a long list of other AP holder friends that he will schedule FoP or Slinky for if he happens to see them pop up, just because.

Why is Disney resort guests having 60 days an “issue”? Seems like a win-win to me. WDW naturally gets revenue from its guests. Guests get an added perk not afforded to offsite guests. I don’t see this as an “issue.”. Why shouldn’t they have a better advantage?

As for APs it’s nice having the 30 day window even if less choices available. I scheduled a last minute trip over MLK weekend and stayed off site. While I couldn’t get prime attractions, I could get FPs for Fantasmic and Illuminations. I made up for it with showing up at rope drop.