FP+ meltdown part x

[Chippy]

You should have booked at 60 days out, not 11. Of course nothing early exists that early now that it is so close to your trip. I know quite a lot of people that go to Disney, and none of them have ever had as much trouble as those in these forums say they have had. I can only conclude that the trouble is either falsified (not saying that is what you are doing.) and they are doing so because they don't like change and want something to gripe about. Or they honestly have had issues, but those issues are created by that person (again, not accusing you here. ) There are, I am sure, a few that have had issues relating to a technical issue (outages and such), but these things happen. They happened with the old system, and they will happen with whatever system replaces MM+. Welcome to the 21st century.

May I suggest that you go ahead and take the late FP+'s. We do. Then we get to the parks early, ride the big stuff with a walk-on, then use the FP's for later in the day.

Rereading my post I see where you may think I just tried to make the FP but I was up at 12:00 - at the dawning of 60th day before our trip hoping to get all our rides. As I said the system was down until 5 a.m. I know that because I stayed up (like a fool) trying the site every 10 to 15 minutes. We're arriving on a Friday so I understand why Friday, Sat and Sunday might have been tough to get as it's the end of many others vacations. I was in a lather by the time the FP+ came on line at 5 a.m. wondering if I was doing something wrong. And I am not exaggerating my experiences. I want to love FP+. I want to find it makes our vacation so much better once we get to use it. It will just have to be very magical to make up for the hassles I've been through so far.

Remember, we hardly ever used the old FP so It's not like I feel vested in the old system. Maybe it's that I never had to use them before but saw the much crazier lines last year and read the recommendations here, so I feel I kinda have to get the FP for some rides or forego those rides without a 90+ min wait.

I did take the late FP times - we will arrive at rope drop and see what we can do with no passes - It's just that we'll have no access to 4th and subsequent passes on those days.

As this is my 6th trip in the last 7 years, I know the early bird gets the best ADR, I knew that with the FP+ as well. That makes for two times I had to wake up early or stay up late to be sure my options would be open. When everything is working as it should it is not 'relaxing' - but maybe fun when you hit the times you want. Maybe to a slacker who rarely ever ran from FP to FP it just seems a bit too much. At least with ADR's I have a few acceptable alternatives for each desired restaurant and only have to work around Fantasmic and MSEP schedules. No CRT but Aukerhaus (how do you spell that?), No California Grill - but Artist's Point or Jinko or the list goes on. There is only one 7DMT, one Toy Story, etc. Maybe to a slacker who rarely ran to gather FP it feels like an extra complication. A complication that you skip at your own peril. To someone who gets to pass on a lot of running I can see the up side.

And again, working around ADR's made 6 months ago (well 4 months before the 60 day FP window) and ending up with 7DMT fast passes at 8:00 pm after hitting the FP website at the first available moment is not easy or convenient. There were others after 5 as well. I can not imagine what would be available had I just attempted to make my FP choices this week. Unless Disney holds back times as a sort of rationing of availability. I really want to like this new system. I like staying on property and having FP+ work easily would help me justify continued stays on property. I'm not complaining to hear myself type or to try and convince you that it's not as great as you feel it is. I just wonder if my expectations are too high or if I am doing something wrong, or story of my life - I'm just unlucky.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

100% AGREE! But it isn't obvious. It took me a while to realize what was going on. Think about it... Disney is training guests to use the system. In theory, the FP has value, even if it's for an attraction you didn't know you wanted. You get what you can get and then just grab whatever is left. But then you stay in the park to use that 4:30pm FP for Stitch even though you didn't even really want it, the ride usually doesn't normally have much of a wait and you could have practically walked on before the days of MM+.

Meanwhile, if you're walking around Tomorrowland and decide to do Stitch (for whatever reason), you're shocked to discover a much longer wait than usual because the FPs are eating it up.

I waited about 20-minutes for Imagination two weeks ago. Not proud to admit that...

Here's the interesting thing about FP+. It's an illusion on many, many, fronts. There is nothing Fast about it as the very nature of it will ultimately slow guests down - which is exactly what TDO wants.

A novice WDW person didn't know how to use the old system to maximize their day, so when they would arrive at the parks they wouldn't be able to hit as many headline attractions as someone experienced in the paper FP (or even pre-FP) days. The novice WDW person was at a "disadvantage" to the experienced person.

For a first time visitor, getting a single ride/visit on every attraction was a daunting task. An experienced WDW visitor typically doesn't have that goal. They want to experience the rides/attractions that they enjoy and are willing to skip the rest.

With MM+ and FP+, the balance has been tipped in favor of the first time visitor in many circumstances. The novice visitor who many have arrived later in the day and gotten a late return time for a popular attraction, can now pre-reserve a prime time reservation moments after they arrive in the park. With more FP+ time slots being offered than paper days, more stand-by capacity is diverted to FP+. This hurts the experienced visitor. FP+ attempts to steer crowds away from popular attractions to less popular ones by the illusion of perceived value. That value is a "short" return time. Popular attractions will retain longer return time windows, so much so, that it will be very likely that you won't be able to hit as many headlining/popular attractions in the same day. What this means is the likely need to have more days at the resort if you want to experience the popular attractions.

The illusion is that FP+ is fast. It isn't. Its attempt to sell the illusion that you can experience the resort with minimal waits simply doesn't add up. The sales pitch of making things more convenient and easy for going to WDW, couldn't be further from the truth. While selling the perception of shorter waits for popular things, the reality is that wait times for everything else (that wasn't as popular) have to go up. The less people waiting in line for popular things, the more people are turned loose on the less popular rides and attractions as well as things like food and infrastructure (restrooms, guest services, etc).

I just don't see how this will ultimately play out as my biggest fear is that WDW currently has the severe diminishing returns associated with it. The weaknesses are more prevalent for the repeat visitor than the first time guest. They can only sell the "once in a lifetime" trip for so long. Currently, the brand reputation with WDW is very high based on their legacy. With the repeat guest being exposed to more frustrations with what MM+/FP+ is trying to do, how much longer will that legacy remain untarnished? How long before the ease of getting a guaranteed single ride on TSMM for a first time guest carry more weight than a repeat customer that just wants to improve their score and realizes that if they want to do it again, you need to come back tomorrow?

 

[FutureCEO]

and to think they spent $1.5 billion for this

 

[Mike S]

and to think they spent $1.5 billion for this

I thought it was over $2 billion now.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

That is immersive to us.

And the way it added ride pics automatically to our Memory Maker was pretty darn immersive as well.

 

[pax_65]

Currently, the brand reputation with WDW is very high based on their legacy. With the repeat guest being exposed to more frustrations with what MM+/FP+ is trying to do, how much longer will that legacy remain untarnished?

In this age of social media, it will happen faster than you think. I posted about my disappointment on Facebook, I'm sure others will do the same.

My friends often ask me for advice about Disney because they know I love it and go at least once a year. For the first time ever, I'm saying "Don't go". At the very least, I'm suggesting they wait until all the bugs are worked out. I'm not sure how everything can be fixed to my satisfaction, but I really hope Disney finds a way. Because it is my favorite vacation spot on the planet.

In the meantime, since I have no trips planned through 2015, I just deleted MDE from my phone. It felt surprisingly good. I'm free.

 

[BigTxEars]

I know what it means to me, that is all that matters when we are talking about immersion right? How can you define immersion for someone else? Why would you even try? You know better than me what I find immersive? I certainly don't make that claim about you.

 

[prberk]

I just don't see how this will ultimately play out as my biggest fear is that WDW currently has the severe diminishing returns associated with it. The weaknesses are more prevalent for the repeat visitor than the first time guest. They can only sell the "once in a lifetime" trip for so long. Currently, the brand reputation with WDW is very high based on their legacy. With the repeat guest being exposed to more frustrations with what MM+/FP+ is trying to do, how much longer will that legacy remain untarnished? How long before the ease of getting a guaranteed single ride on TSMM for a first time guest carry more weight than a repeat customer that just wants to improve their score and realizes that if they want to do it again, you need to come back tomorrow?

Combine this with lack of freshness that is becoming more apparent as the years go by, and as prices continue to outpace inflation by a crazy amount, and more credit card charges for changing dinner plans or missing it due to transportation issues, and as it becomes more obvious that we are slave to our phones even on vacation (not counting wanting to be tied to it, but having to be)... and I see more and more diminishing returns (as ironic as that sounds).

I used to feel special at WDW, as an "insider" with knowledge of the "little things" like hidden Mickeys and even a few ADRs. Now it seems like I should feel more like a cow, being prodded along, even if it were an itinerary I myself planned two months ago (when I was prodded to do so)...

 

[1023]

Combine this with lack of freshness that is becoming more apparent as the years go by, and as prices continue to outpace inflation by a crazy amount, and more credit card charges for changing dinner plans or missing it due to transportation issues, and as it becomes more obvious that we are slave to our phones even on vacation (not counting wanting to be tied to it, but having to be)... and I see more and more diminishing returns (as ironic as that sounds).

I used to feel special at WDW, as an "insider" with knowledge of the "little things" like hidden Mickeys and even a few ADRs. Now it seems like I should feel more like a cow, being prodded along, even if it were an itinerary I myself planned two months ago (when I was prodded to do so)...

As a customer, you are now becoming more aware you also the product, the employee, quality control, and information. Some could say (not me) you are your own Warden.

*1023*

EDITED to ADD:
Waiter: Be careful, that plate is hot.
Customer: How do you know what I think is hot?
Waiter: Well, the plate just came from a 600 degree oven and I brought directly to your table so I imagine it’s still well over 500 degrees.
Customer: Well 600 degrees isn’t hot to me. Don’t tell me what hot is.
Waiter: (*sigh*)

 

[hsisthebest]

All the conjecture and speculation in the world can't hold a stick to the facts. Fastpass+ is shortening times for major attractions and slightly increasing waits for the others. This chart uses a ton of data gathered over time. The only people who really suffer under fastpass+ are the guerrilla/stampeding folks who come several times a year to ride each ride as many times as they can. The rest of us are happy. http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/06/23/fastpass-lowering-waits-disney-world-popular-rides/

 

[BigTxEars]

Combine this with lack of freshness that is becoming more apparent as the years go by, and as prices continue to outpace inflation by a crazy amount, and more credit card charges for changing dinner plans or missing it due to transportation issues, and as it becomes more obvious that we are slave to our phones even on vacation (not counting wanting to be tied to it, but having to be)... and I see more and more diminishing returns (as ironic as that sounds).

I used to feel special at WDW, as an "insider" with knowledge of the "little things" like hidden Mickeys and even a few ADRs. Now it seems like I should feel more like a cow, being prodded along, even if it were an itinerary I myself planned two months ago (when I was prodded to do so)...

My phone never leaves Texas and I survived My Magic for a week without it.

Leave that thing at home! You can change anything onsite without a phone, and convenience the phone may provide is overcome by having it with me IMO. Others carry theirs and that is of course fine but not me and I don't see the need to have it for My Magic. I just print out a typed listing of ADRs and FP+ times and carry it with me. The ADRs I can remember most times the FP+s seem to be harder as there are more of them.

I am glad they charge for missed ADRs, keeps idiots from over booking ADRs at multiple locations "until they decide where they want to eat that day" and screwing others out of reservations.

 

[BigTxEars]

All the conjecture and speculation in the world can't hold a stick to the facts. Fastpass+ is shortening times for major attractions and slightly increasing waits for the others. This chart uses a ton of data gathered over time. The only people who really suffer under fastpass+ are the guerrilla/stampeding folks who come several times a year to ride each ride as many times as they can. The rest of us are happy. http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/06/23/fastpass-lowering-waits-disney-world-popular-rides/

Thats pretty interesting. I would imagine the charts that WDW had before FP+ and now would be even more so. I can only imagine the huge amount of guest data they track in the parks.

 

[1023]

All the conjecture and speculation in the world can't hold a stick to the facts. Fastpass+ is shortening times for major attractions and slightly increasing waits for the others. This chart uses a ton of data gathered over time. The only people who really suffer under fastpass+ are the guerrilla/stampeding folks who come several times a year to ride each ride as many times as they can. The rest of us are happy. http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/06/23/fastpass-lowering-waits-disney-world-popular-rides/

After reviewing the post this link directed me to, there are several factors not taken into account because of the sampling process. There is a glaring issue in it.

1.) Sampling was done between specific hours and not including all operating hours.
2.) Because of item 1, the fact that the new system issues FP+ outside the limited sampling hours, the numbers are most likely very inaccurate.
3.) Sampling in this manner does not actually indicate real use. (Neilsen ratings for PBS vary widely between boxes and diaries.)
4.) Hyper planning guides (such as the one Len Testa provides, which I love BTW) are being used in conjunction with the new system to the benefit of all those EVIL COMMANDO park guests.

And these are just 4 items off the top of my head.

There will always be EVIL GUERRILLA COMMANDOS like me trying to enjoy their favorite attraction more than once. Strangely, I rarely ride anything more than once anymore with the exception of non-headliner attractions like SSE, etc... Now that the "secondary" attractions waste more time, I can spend less money during my visit.

Three other things to think about.

1.) I don't see any reference to the enormous FP+ Kiosk lines that lengthen your day.
2.) Combining EMH with FP+ can really skew numbers I assure you.
3.) How many times did you visit guest relations and how long were their lines?

Just food for thought.

*1023*

P.S. I really do use TouringPlans and think it's been great for years.

EDITED TO ADD QUOTE

 

[ford91exploder]

All the conjecture and speculation in the world can't hold a stick to the facts. Fastpass+ is shortening times for major attractions and slightly increasing waits for the others. This chart uses a ton of data gathered over time. The only people who really suffer under fastpass+ are the guerrilla/stampeding folks who come several times a year to ride each ride as many times as they can. The rest of us are happy. http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/06/23/fastpass-lowering-waits-disney-world-popular-rides/

No it also seriously damages those who just like to wander the park and perhaps pull a fastpass if available for a favorite ride or two. Those of us who USED to place the smartphone in the safe when we arrived and took it out when we left

 

[1023]

A few more very generalized notes on sampling as there are many types. I will use something outside of Disney for this.

There are elements of the U.S. Government that prefers the idea of using sampling for the Census process. The arguments for using sampling data are quite compelling. The arguments against it are equally compelling. Again, this is very generalized as there are several subtle elements that work in the explanation below.

For a benefit, sampling decreases the expense of actually doing the Census through a reduction in man power used to conduct it. How do they do this? The take a few neighborhoods in a given area and use them to represent the rest of the neighborhoods nearby. They don't actually account for every person and their data they take a sample and extrapolate it. This really saves time and money.

Those elements that dislike the idea of sampling point to the fact that it would be rife with mistakes and false assumptions. Why would they care about this? Because it could lend itself to misappropriate districts and contribute to gerrymandering among other things. They also point out it is illegal. Finally, it can be easily influenced by the established limits of the sample data.

The point is, when you establish limits to a set of variables and then gather your sample, you may have already prejudiced the results. As a few contributors here have noted, numbers can be tortured to fit your argument. It's helpful to look at how one arrived at those numbers to begin with.

As I pointed out before in my previous post several factors were "limited out" either by not being "knowable" or by prejudice for a given reason. The easiest one to point to as "limited out" is the length of time one spends in a kiosk line. Another easy one to point out is not "knowable" which is did someone use the standby rather than the FP+ outside of the sampled hours.

At this point, I will stop beating the horse that has already been shot dead.

*1023*

 

[BrerJon]

I used to feel special at WDW, as an "insider" with knowledge of the "little things" like hidden Mickeys and even a few ADRs. Now it seems like I should feel more like a cow, being prodded along, even if it were an itinerary I myself planned two months ago (when I was prodded to do so)...

I know what you mean. This is a bit of a bad analogy, but I feel a little like hardcore fans of a little-known band feel when they suddenly become famous and the person at work you tried to get to listen to them several months ago now starts telling *you* you should check them out.

One of the reasons I find going to Tokyo Disney is so appealing is it's *my* secret Disney, I hardly know anyone else who's been, was the first person I knew in my social group to go to etc., so it's all still something I'm 'in on' that has yet to be discovered by the masses.

For the WDW uber-fan, the process of uber-planning moving from an exceptional activity to a compulsory and widely advertised one has definitely reduced some of that ownership and sense of knowing all the little tricks.

 

[G00fyDad]

Rereading my post I see where you may think I just tried to make the FP but I was up at 12:00 - at the dawning of 60th day before our trip hoping to get all our rides. As I said the system was down until 5 a.m. I know that because I stayed up (like a fool) trying the site every 10 to 15 minutes. We're arriving on a Friday so I understand why Friday, Sat and Sunday might have been tough to get as it's the end of many others vacations. I was in a lather by the time the FP+ came on line at 5 a.m. wondering if I was doing something wrong. And I am not exaggerating my experiences. I want to love FP+. I want to find it makes our vacation so much better once we get to use it. It will just have to be very magical to make up for the hassles I've been through so far.

Remember, we hardly ever used the old FP so It's not like I feel vested in the old system. Maybe it's that I never had to use them before but saw the much crazier lines last year and read the recommendations here, so I feel I kinda have to get the FP for some rides or forego those rides without a 90+ min wait.

I did take the late FP times - we will arrive at rope drop and see what we can do with no passes - It's just that we'll have no access to 4th and subsequent passes on those days.

As this is my 6th trip in the last 7 years, I know the early bird gets the best ADR, I knew that with the FP+ as well. That makes for two times I had to wake up early or stay up late to be sure my options would be open. When everything is working as it should it is not 'relaxing' - but maybe fun when you hit the times you want. Maybe to a slacker who rarely ever ran from FP to FP it just seems a bit too much. At least with ADR's I have a few acceptable alternatives for each desired restaurant and only have to work around Fantasmic and MSEP schedules. No CRT but Aukerhaus (how do you spell that?), No California Grill - but Artist's Point or Jinko or the list goes on. There is only one 7DMT, one Toy Story, etc. Maybe to a slacker who rarely ran to gather FP it feels like an extra complication. A complication that you skip at your own peril. To someone who gets to pass on a lot of running I can see the up side.

And again, working around ADR's made 6 months ago (well 4 months before the 60 day FP window) and ending up with 7DMT fast passes at 8:00 pm after hitting the FP website at the first available moment is not easy or convenient. There were others after 5 as well. I can not imagine what would be available had I just attempted to make my FP choices this week. Unless Disney holds back times as a sort of rationing of availability. I really want to like this new system. I like staying on property and having FP+ work easily would help me justify continued stays on property. I'm not complaining to hear myself type or to try and convince you that it's not as great as you feel it is. I just wonder if my expectations are too high or if I am doing something wrong, or story of my life - I'm just unlucky.

I feel your pain. I for one love the new system, but not so much to not see the flaws it has. However, I have tried to look at it from the perspective that it is what it is. Nothing anyone can do is going to change Disney's minds about MM+. While it works for me I can and will acknowledge that it is not everyone's cup of tea. Anyone who doesn't like MM+/FP+, who just gets bogged down by the process should look at this as an up and down of pluses to the Disney vacation experience. Right now there are millions of people that like (not love, only like) the MM+/FP+ system and only a smattering of those who dislike (or even hate) the system. However, in the future it may prove that something else comes along that these people that are dissatisfied right now will love and others will hate. I see your points about how the system has failed you, or not lived up to your needs. I wish there was a better solution to your problem. And you're not unlucky. The current system just doesn't fit your needs. Unfortunately, Disney cannot satisfy everyone so they try to satisfy the largest group. I really hope your situation improves.

 

[pax_65]

No it also seriously damages those who just like to wander the park and perhaps pull a fastpass if available for a favorite ride or two. Those of us who USED to place the smartphone in the safe when we arrived and took it out when we left

I think this is what I find most frustrating. The whole discussion over who likes the system vs who doesn't like it basically comes down to your personality. If you're the type who likes to plan every minute of your vacation, you're going to like MM+. If you like being more relaxed, more spontaneous, you're going to have more issues with it. That's fine and understandable.

What irks me is that you really don't have any choice. In the past you could sort of throw a Disney day together last minute and it would be pretty decent. Maybe not as perfect as if you had planned it in advance, but still a pretty good time. The system was flexible enough that it could work for everyone regardless of how you liked to vacation.

But now, if you don't plan weeks and even months in advance, your day will be significantly downgraded - to the point that for the first time I'm questioning the value of my admission pass and AP. (And I did plan ahead - I just didn't really enjoy being tied strictly to the plan. But when I tried to make tweaks or mix things up, I got SLAMMED.)

 

[ford91exploder]

I feel your pain. I for one love the new system, but not so much to not see the flaws it has. However, I have tried to look at it from the perspective that it is what it is. Nothing anyone can do is going to change Disney's minds about MM+. While it works for me I can and will acknowledge that it is not everyone's cup of tea. Anyone who doesn't like MM+/FP+, who just gets bogged down by the process should look at this as an up and down of pluses to the Disney vacation experience. Right now there are millions of people that like (not love, only like) the MM+/FP+ system and only a smattering of those who dislike (or even hate) the system. However, in the future it may prove that something else comes along that these people that are dissatisfied right now will love and others will hate. I see your points about how the system has failed you, or not lived up to your needs. I wish there was a better solution to your problem. And you're not unlucky. The current system just doesn't fit your needs. Unfortunately, Disney cannot satisfy everyone so they try to satisfy the largest group. I really hope your situation improves.

You are making an assumption here that there is only a small number of people who actively disleike the MM- and the My(Bad)DisneyExperience APP, On ALL the Disney boards you are seeing new accounts popping up with dissatisfied visitors.

We've all had visitors to WDW come back muttering about the amount of time they spent fixing issues rather than visiting the park. I now tell people to avoid WDW and visit DL or TDL at DL I don't need to wait up at the six month mark to get breakfast or dinner at Storytellers, I just go and wait my turn.

 

[voodoo321]

Many of you are taking sides on this issue, as either slammers or apologists. There are a few level headed people on here that are weighing the pros and cons and those are the posts I pay attention to and it's refreshing. None of us would be here if we didn't care deeply about the what WDW means to us. All I can add is my own experience with this new system.
I'm a person that doesn't plan trips out months in advance. I go when the opportunity arrises and that sometimes means two months or two weeks in advance. The last time(a few months ago) I went for a weekend with my kids. We went to Universal to see Diagon Alley and had only felt that we had time for Typhoon Lagoon on our last day. Instead, we decided to go to the MK. Unfamiliar with what I was getting into, I finally found a kiosk at opening, waited in line for 10 minutes, received ridiculously late return times for Splash, Space, Big Thunder. Peter Pan was way out of my range and Dwarfs was non existent of course. It wasnt a particularly busy day yet we waited for Pirates and HM for 45 min apiece. All of the stanby wait times were twice as long as listed. Ive never experienced that before. I'm not one to rush through the parks either. I take my time, walk slow and enjoy everything as it comes but I've always been able to do more rides, multiple times, on even busier days.
I asked the CM at the kiosk if most people were totally confused by this system. He cleared his throat, gave me a wink and said, "Well, no. It's totally new and magical", I patted him on the back and laughed. Then he rolled his eyes with another wink. Like I said, I'm somebody that had gone to either WDW or DL once a year and I have no way of planning that trip months in advance. Maybe I'm just different than most. I wanted my next trip to be a week long Orlando vacation, staying at Disney and mixing in some other attractions. Universal has had most of my money on the last two trips and I used to think of them as a side attraction. I don't think I want to go anymore if I have to plan so far out. It ruins the spontenaity of park hopping as well. Doesn't sound like my kind of time. That's just me. But I don't think I'm alone. I'm depressed.