Four Seasons Land Deal

hokielutz

Well-Known Member
Disney did not have choice one with Bonnet creek as they never owned the property. In fact Disney fought the project for years by denying them right of way access.


I know Disney had no real legal choice for the property at Bonnet Creek.
I guess saying "recent move" was incorrectly pointing the finger at Disney for Bonnet Creek's expansion and high-end development.

I was just venting because of the super close proximity of the resort and the sight lines that it does/will ruin from within the Disney property.
 

mrneon606

Member
We just got back from a stay at the Port Orleans: Riverside resort. If you took a right out of the resort and went down to the lights they were clearing some land back there( same road the Fort Wilderness is on). One of the bus drivers said it was for a Four Seasons. Is that right? Is that where the land sold?
 

NASAMan

Member
4seasons.jpg


This is a graphic I made using Google Maps and information from Disney on the Four Seasons Resort. It encompasses all the land currently used by the Eagle Pines and Osprey Ridge golf courses. In order to acquire the five star rated resort that WDW so desires, the resort must have it's own golf course (which is what prevents the Grand Floridian from achieving that status). From this illustration, it would seem that the new Four Seasons would now technically be outside the WDW property line.

My understanding from earlier announcements was that the resort itself would be placed along the northeast side of Bay Lake, which is outside the area illustrated above. Hope this helps the discussion along.
 

hokielutz

Well-Known Member
We just got back from a stay at the Port Orleans: Riverside resort. If you took a right out of the resort and went down to the lights they were clearing some land back there( same road the Fort Wilderness is on). One of the bus drivers said it was for a Four Seasons. Is that right? Is that where the land sold?

Most likely.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Check back in twenty years and who knows how different the landscape of WDW will be.

Not to scare people, but I really look for Epcot, DHS and Animal Kingdom (and associated resorts) to be sold off some day. I think WDC will keep the MK, the monorail resorts, the Palm and Magnolia and Fort Widerness and the Wilderness Lodge. Everything else could end up on the auction block. Enjoy it while you can!
 

DisneyDellsDude

New Member
Not to scare people, but I really look for Epcot, DHS and Animal Kingdom (and associated resorts) to be sold off some day. I think WDC will keep the MK, the monorail resorts, the Palm and Magnolia and Fort Widerness and the Wilderness Lodge. Everything else could end up on the auction block. Enjoy it while you can!

That better not happen! If I climb the management ladder one day, I will make sure it doesn't!

One of my WDW pet peeves is them selling off all their land!
Disney should develop a 5 star hotel themselves, not let some other company do it on their property!
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
I'm with you guys. As I always say, none of us knew Walt personally, but unless absolutely everything ever published about him was a lie, this is the exact opposite of what he wanted. He didn't buy all this land so that it could be sold off for a profit. Shame on the company.

The Walt Disney Co went through so much trouble to aquire this land...using secrecy and fake company names! I can't even believe that the current management things its a wise decision to sell of some of WDW land! Roy E Disney learned the hard way back in 1984 with the Steinberg raid scare that the land and the theme parks owned by the company can NEVER be seen as liquidable assets! I am a shareholder but I am in no way for maximizing quartley profits at the rate of liquidating land assets! The current management needs to be removed!

From the first Superman movie with Christopher Reeve:
"Son, stocks may rise and fall, utilities and transportation systems may collapse. People are no damn good, but they will always need land and they will pay through the nose to get it!"

Granted, I don't know all the details of the transaction, but...
I see this as another example of shortsightedness in order to boost quarterly shareholder profit.
Once that land is sold and developed to capacity, it can only take away from the guest experience, and ultimately the real value of WDW having that much land to begin with.
And, they'll never get it back.

This is much different than choosing to run buses compared to building more monorail due to cost. That could be changed. Maybe a better system will be developed. But once that land is gone, it's gone.

It would be one thing if shareholders were actually long term holders with a vested interest in the company's long term goals and profit, but a lot are likely people with short term profits in mind. If Disney doesn't look good, sell and buy Microsoft or Google, or Exxon.

By all accounts, that land was purchased by Walt for long term, much longer than now.
There's the camp of "that's not the way Walt would have done it" to be sure, and that can be argued about many attractions, infrastructure, hotels, the original concept of Epcot, etc. and there are always other ways of doing things.

But this is just so fundamentally different and obviously wrong, it's almost painful.

Agreed. Everything about the aquisition of the land for WDW was for long term expansion. Disney Co and it's assets are not like other companies that can simply cut it's assets in tough times.

When they say Northeast of the property, they don't mean the NE side of Bay Lake do they? :shrug: That would really inhale deeply! :fork:

Yes, Bay Lake, Sasscagula River, etc...This will be a very noticible chunk of the WDW property!

Not to scare people, but I really look for Epcot, DHS and Animal Kingdom (and associated resorts) to be sold off some day. I think WDC will keep the MK, the monorail resorts, the Palm and Magnolia and Fort Widerness and the Wilderness Lodge. Everything else could end up on the auction block. Enjoy it while you can!

You should read "Storming the Magic Kingdom." As I said in the beginning of this post, Roy E Disney learned by almost losing the Disney Co that the land and the theme parks can not simply be looked at as tangable assets!

This deal outraged me when I first heard of it and it still outrages me now! :fork:
 

pax_65

Well-Known Member
I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why:

1. Disney couldn't create a 5-star resort themselves (I always thought they were good at that sort of thing)

and

2. Why the likes of GF, AKL, Y&BC, etc. aren't luxurious enough. Is Disney actually losing business to outside hotels because they don't have luxurious enough accommodations for some folks? If so, which hotels?

Aside from all that, I just don't get it. If I'm going to relax on a super-luxurious resort with amazing rooms, spa treatments, golf, etc. I'd go to a beach somewhere. The big argument for choosing a moderate or even value resort in Disney was that you don't spend that much time in your room anyway!

Who are the people who will fill this resort? :veryconfu
 

MousDad

New Member
4seasons.jpg


This is a graphic I made using Google Maps and information from Disney on the Four Seasons Resort. It encompasses all the land currently used by the Eagle Pines and Osprey Ridge golf courses. In order to acquire the five star rated resort that WDW so desires, the resort must have it's own golf course (which is what prevents the Grand Floridian from achieving that status). From this illustration, it would seem that the new Four Seasons would now technically be outside the WDW property line.

My understanding from earlier announcements was that the resort itself would be placed along the northeast side of Bay Lake, which is outside the area illustrated above. Hope this helps the discussion along.

Assuming that the land you marked is the Four Seasons development, then WDW is not losing any undeveloped land. Rather they are taking land that now houses 2 (very spread-out, links style) golf courses and replacing it with a resort and 1 golf course.

As far as land use, I have no problem with the decision, because it is a "more economical" way to use land that is already developed. Would I rather have seen Disney do it themselves? Probably. But I'm failing to see the land loss here.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
Assuming that the land you marked is the Four Seasons development, then WDW is not losing any undeveloped land. Rather they are taking land that now houses 2 (very spread-out, links style) golf courses and replacing it with a resort and 1 golf course.

As far as land use, I have no problem with the decision, because it is a "more economical" way to use land that is already developed. Would I rather have seen Disney do it themselves? Probably. But I'm failing to see the land loss here.


it is significant land loss! This is land that Disney could have redeveloped themselves which they have done before! ie: The Disney Institute redeveloped into Saratoga Springs. Or the retheming of Pleasure Island that will be taking place next year! The difference is that Disney could have redeveloped this land themselves into a better resort, another guest area. the 300+/- site is large enough for another park if they had wanted. But with this land deal we're talking about 300 acres that is no longer Disney's! 300 acres that they no longer have control over right inside their resort! 300 acres they cannot later say "ok, so that wasn't the best idea, lets try something else on this site"

It took years to acquire all of that land! I cannot believe they think it's wise to sell it off to make a quick buck! I don't care what they plan to do with the money acquired from the sale! What's to stop them from selling off some more land they haven't developed yet? Whats to stop them from selling off Discovery Island or the land where the Treehouse Villas are? OR how about selling of the land where Celebration sits?

:brick:
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Can we put some things in perspective guys....

Disney sold 298 of it's 27,400 acres. That is slightly more than 1% of its current holdings.They did not sell it to Ramada or motel six but the 4 Seasons. A company that defines luxury in the resort industry. Disney has wanted a 5 star resort pretty much forever and will now finally have it. Why did they just not build one themselves you may ask? Simply put they can't. Most people do not know that there is no unified rating hotel system in the US. There is no check lits that someone can go down and say "This is a 5 star resort" Every travel company seems to have their own set of rules and the name is a big part of those systems. For whatever reason, be it lack of a golf course, being kid friendly, or simply the stigma behind the name Disney a Disney created resort is almost guaranteed to never get that elusive 5th star regardless of how luxurious it is.

I hear several people complaining how the look of this resort will destroy Disney and nothing could be further form the truth. First of all it is unlikely that you will even be able to see this resort from another and you will definitely not be able to see it from any of the parks. Secondly this resort will make the GF look like one of the All Stars.

Disney sold a sliver of already developed property and will get an incredible 5 star resort on property out of the deal. IMHO they made the right choice.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Assuming that the land you marked is the Four Seasons development, then WDW is not losing any undeveloped land. Rather they are taking land that now houses 2 (very spread-out, links style) golf courses and replacing it with a resort and 1 golf course.

As far as land use, I have no problem with the decision, because it is a "more economical" way to use land that is already developed. Would I rather have seen Disney do it themselves? Probably. But I'm failing to see the land loss here.

It is a land "loss" because Disney will not just no longer own the land they will also no longer control what happens to it. Just like Disneyland was encroached on much to Walt's dismay, the same thing is happening at WDW.
 

hokielutz

Well-Known Member
So now I am a little confused.

What is Disney's stake in this project. From what I have read over the past couple of days, Disney had a large hand in developing and building the resort, but it will be managed by Four Seasons once complete. What kind of partnership will the two companies have in this deal?

Is this a resort that will have access to the rest of WDW, similar to the GF, Contemp, Poly, etc? Will staying at the Four Seasons entitle you to on-property guest status? Or are these details not known yet?

And so it also appears that the Osprey Ridge GC will belong to the Four Seasons resort then?
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
It is a land "loss" because Disney will not just no longer own the land they will also no longer control what happens to it. Just like Disneyland was encroached on much to Walt's dismay, the same thing is happening at WDW.
The situations are completely different. DL had no control over the surrounding property because they never owned it. Do you honestly think that this property was sold unconditionally? I guarantee you that Disney still retains some level of developmental control. And like I pointed out before, it is the freaken 4 seasons. It is not like they are going to put up a Stuckey's and an I-drive style shopping district.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
So now I am a little confused.

What is Disney's stake in this project. From what I have read over the past couple of days, Disney had a large hand in developing and building the resort, but it will be managed by Four Seasons once complete. What kind of partnership will the two companies have in this deal?

Is this a resort that will have access to the rest of WDW, similar to the GF, Contemp, Poly, etc? Will staying at the Four Seasons entitle you to on-property guest status? Or are these details not known yet?

And so it also appears that the Osprey Ridge GC will belong to the Four Seasons resort then?
I do not think the details have been released yet but I would expect a situation similar to the Swan and Dolphin.
 

hokielutz

Well-Known Member
I do not think the details have been released yet but I would expect a situation similar to the Swan and Dolphin.


Then maybe the deal isn't quite as bad as I originally thought it to be, if it is handled similar to the Swan & Dolphin. The last think I wanted to see is a non-Disney resort thrown up on the outskirts of the property, and losing a Golf course as well.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I do not think the details have been released yet but I would expect a situation similar to the Swan and Dolphin.

Are you sure? I believe Disney still owns the land under the Dolphin and Swan. That is what makes this new deal so disturbing. Sorry I disagree with you but once land is sold you don't maintain complete control as to what happens to it. I love that the 4 Seasons will be there, I am just troubled by Disney giving up the land. There seems to be no end to this trend. This is hardly the first sell off WDW has done and I doubt it is the last.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Are you sure? I believe Disney still owns the land under the Dolphin and Swan. That is what makes this new deal so disturbing. Sorry I disagree with you but once land is sold you don't maintain complete control as to what happens to it. I love that the 4 Seasons will be there, I am just troubled by Disney giving up the land. There seems to be no end to this trend. This is hardly the first sell off WDW has done and I doubt it is the last.
The land deal is different but I see no reason for the Disney benefits to be different. Four Seasons guests will almost assuredly get all the benefits that Disney resort guests get. (ie EMH, transportation, etc)

You might disagree with it but facts are facts....you can rarely buy a piece of property and simply do what you want with it. I own my house and the property it sits on and I can not do so much as paint it a different color without approval.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
The land deal is different but I see no reason for the Disney benefits to be different. Four Seasons guests will almost assuredly get all the benefits that Disney resort guests get. (ie EMH, transportation, etc)

You might disagree with it but facts are facts....you can rarely buy a piece of property and simply do what you want with it. I own my house and the property it sits on and I can not do so much as paint it a different color without approval.

What would stop the new owners of the land from building a hotel similar to what you see near DTD? Probably nothing. They have already announced projects in addition to the hotel. I never mentioned what benefits the resort guests might or might not get. :shrug:
 

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