First Mexico and Now Norway? Proof America is Getting Dumber?

Disneyfamily4

Well-Known Member
It makes no sense to just replace an existing, loved attraction that makes sense with one that's popular and doesn't make much sense. They need more STUFF to do in the parks to eat up the growing crowds. I get it made a lot of money (not $878 billion, lol) but just put it somewhere else and make it an addition.


Sadly Maelstrom wasn't a loved attraction like you think. Thinking of it on a scale, Maelstrom would be good for just hundreds of people who really really like it. Replacing it with a Frozen ride would be good for tens of thousands of people.

Once the Magic bands took over, the fate of Maelstrom was sealed. Disney pretty much knew at that point where Maelstrom stands, on the to do list, with every single visitor. Disney needed to replace it, just because it is a quicker transition. As we saw from the Mine Train, that's a 3-year build when it is started from scratch. By them taking over the Maelstrom ride, the groundwork is already done, the ride will be here a lot quicker now.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Sadly Maelstrom wasn't a loved attraction like you think. Thinking of it on a scale, Maelstrom would be good for just hundreds of people who really really like it. Replacing it with a Frozen ride would be good for tens of thousands of people.

Once the Magic bands took over, the fate of Maelstrom was sealed. Disney pretty much knew at that point where Maelstrom stands, on the to do list, with every single visitor. Disney needed to replace it, just because it is a quicker transition. As we saw from the Mine Train, that's a 3-year build when it is started from scratch. By them taking over the Maelstrom ride, the groundwork is already done, the ride will be here a lot quicker now.
What a poor excuse for a ride build. Oh, it would take too long to build it right, so let's just take over a ride system in EPCOT and slap a Frozen ride together. This is the issue I think many are having with the decision.

I also think it's invalid to compare Maelstrom with Frozen. Of course, Frozen is more popular, but it doesn't invalidate Maelstrom's worth. You don't just replace everything with something else just because it's more popular. It all works together. Space Mountain is more popular than the Hall of Presidents, but we are glad we have both.

Again, you add Frozen and do it right. Three years is a long time, but we waited for other things and it could be sped up if they had the vision and desire. If Frozen is such a great decision, it will still be relevant 2-3 years from now and a sequel would tie in perfectly with a BRAND new ride. We need more rides anyway, so let's just add it.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Half hour wait times are nothing. In Disney, that pretty much enforces the fact that the Majority passed it by.
It means no such thing, and even if it did my point was that Maelstrom's popularity was still high enough that guest demand for it exceeded its capacity; otherwise it would not have a queue at all.

I would even bet the farm that not a single person ever chose Maelstrom over Soaring or Test Trek on a fast pass.

For starters, Maelstrom wasn't even on the same tier as Soarin' or Test Track once FastPassplus was fully implemented with the tier system. For another, those other two rides are the only other major ride attractions at EPCOT now that Mission:Space has become so unpopular (to the extent that it runs at below-capacity). Maelstrom was a close third to Soarin' and Test Track prior to its closure and really the only other attraction in the park that ever developed significant queues. Spaceship Earth only became a long queue once it and Maelstrom became essentially their own tier in the system, and once Maelstrom closed its standby queues have increased by 50% or more. Perhaps you can remember the daily morning sprints from the turnstiles to the Soarin' fasftpass distribution centers, but EPCOT's severe lack of headliner attractions made its paper Fastpass allotments weird. It wasn't uncommon for Soarin' to run out of paper fastpass return times well before 10:30, which meant Test Track and Maelstrom would receive its fair amount of Fastpass use by default.

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With my wife and little girl, I've had enough with Frozen already, but you cannot deny the overwhelming high demand for it. Last year we had breakfast in Norway and before we went in, we saw a line form to meet Anna & Elsa. The lady at the reservation booth said we can get in line and our reservations will be saved. We got lucky and waited 30 min. However, by 9am, our line was full and they actually started a second line somewhere else in Epcot. Then when our line goes down, a Cast Member would walk a few people from the 2nd line over to our line. At 9am, the Cast Members were showing people where the other line is and telling them they are at a 4-hour wait. The people were saying OK and gladly waiting. No other Disney Princesses have ever had a higher demand in their debut or even this long after. Norway as a country in Epcot had 10 times more people come and visit, once the Arendale Norway connection was made.
Your assumption that this was an unwise decision couldn't be further from the facts. This was a very wise decision for Disney based on knowing what the people actually want. As for the people who don't like Frozen, we should still be happy over this. Disney will now have another ride that will create a lot of traffic. This will then take away all the traffic from the rides we like, such as Test Trek and Soaring. When the ride opens up, 4-hour waits guaranteed all day long.

But that's exactly my point. The Maelstrom hardware was already being used at its full capacity and yet the attraction was still popular enough to generate the 3rd-largest queue in all of EPCOT. The Frozen overlay isn't going to add capacity; it's only going to increase demand.

And Disney isn't getting "another" ride, they're simply re-branding an existing, popular ride to make it even more popular. As you indicated, the Frozen meet-and-greet was far more popular than was suitable for the Norway pavilion- it exceeded the guest flow and infrastructure of the area and was a nightmare for both Operations and park guests. The new Frozen ride is going to be the same story. No one's arguing that Frozen isn't one of Disney's hottest properties in years; the problem is that it's too popular to shoehorn onto a low-capacity boat ride in a small, cramped pavilion that didn't need a traffic boost in the first place.

Sure, people want a Frozen ride and Disney should give them a Frozen ride.
That does not, however, justify Disney,

1. Going the cheap route by overlaying a small existing attraction instead of building a new installation on a scale commensurate with the known popularity of the Frozen franchise.

2. Setting themselves up for guest flow and queue headaches by installing the overlay in an area of the park ill-suited for the long queues that will inevitably created by installing such a popular property into such low-capacity ride hardware.

3. Further compromising the thematic integrity of the World Showcase.

All of these mistakes are going to adversely effect guest satisfaction in the long run. Even if the Frozen ride is well-received, and it almost certainly will be, building it where they are in the way they are is still a dumb idea.
 
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Disneyfamily4

Well-Known Member
It means no such thing, and even if it did my point was that Maelstrom's popularity was still high enough that guest demand for it exceeded its capacity; otherwise it would not have a queue at all.



For starters, Maelstrom wasn't even on the same tier as Soarin' or Test Track once FastPassplus was fully implemented with the tier system. For another, those other two rides are the only other major ride attractions at EPCOT now that Mission:Space has become so unpopular (to the extent that it runs at below-capacity). Maelstrom was a close third to Soarin' and Test Track prior to its closure and really the only other attraction in the park that ever developed significant queues. Spaceship Earth only became a long queue once it and Maelstrom became essentially their own tier in the system, and once Maelstrom closed its standby queues have increased by 50% or more. Perhaps you can remember the daily morning sprints from the turnstiles to the Soarin' fasftpass distribution centers, but EPCOT's severe lack of headliner attractions made its paper Fastpass allotments weird. It wasn't uncommon for Soarin' to run out of paper fastpass return times well before 10:30, which meant Test Track and Maelstrom would receive its fair amount of Fastpass use by default.

epwaits.jpg


tsdasdahball21.jpg




But that's exactly my point. The Maelstrom hardware was already being used at its full capacity and yet the attraction was still popular enough to generate the 3rd-largest queue in all of EPCOT. The Frozen overlay isn't going to add capacity; it's only going to increase demand.

And Disney isn't getting "another" ride, they're simply re-branding an existing, popular ride to make it even more popular. As you indicated, the Frozen meet-and-greet was far more popular than was suitable for the Norway pavilion- it exceeded the guest flow and infrastructure of the area and was a nightmare for both Operations and park guests. The new Frozen ride is going to be the same story. No one's arguing that Frozen isn't one of Disney's hottest properties in years; the problem is that it's too popular to shoehorn onto a low-capacity boat ride in a small, cramped pavilion that didn't need a traffic boost in the first place.

Sure, people want a Frozen ride and Disney should give them a Frozen ride.
That does not, however, justify Disney,

1. Going the cheap route by overlaying a small existing attraction instead of building a new installation on a scale commensurate with the known popularity of the Frozen franchise.

2. Setting themselves up for guest flow and queue headaches by installing the overlay in an area of the park ill-suited for the long queues that will inevitably created by installing such a popular property into such low-capacity ride hardware.

3. Further compromising the thematic integrity of the World Showcase.

All of these mistakes are going to adversely effect guest satisfaction in the long run. Even if the Frozen ride is well-received, and it almost certainly will be, building it where they are in the way they are is still a dumb idea.


I don't know if it changed, but when the magic bands first came out, they were absolutely in the same tier as test trek and Soaring.

And just because you think Maelstrom was a good ride, doesn't mean it was. And to prove that the ride was a total waste of space, Disney just replaced it with Frozen. Only just a score of people on here will miss it, but thousands and thousands are glad to see it being replaced.
 

Disneyfamily4

Well-Known Member
4 hour wait? That is insane. There is nothing at WDW that I would wait 4 hours.


This was last March & April and we saw that 4 hour wait the entire two weeks of the trip. It was crazy seeing these people actually wait.

But that's the whole point. Because these people are willing to wait in line for that, replacing the boring boat ride of the Maelstrom was a no brainer. The entire country never had any traffic until the Arendale / Norway connection was made. Then after that, Norway became one the most frequented countries in Epcot. From least frequented to most just because of the movie. Then Norway got upset threatened to leave and Disney didn't care. An Arendale Pavilion would bring in a lot more money than what they ever got from Norway.
 

Otterhead

Well-Known Member
I think it's silly to be so cynical about the two attractions. As others have said, Norway hasn't bothered to sponsor their own pavilion in over a decade; they wouldn't pay for any maintenance or updates. Given the choice between continuing to foot the bill to upkeep a mildly popular and very dated ride or update it with a wildly popular new theme guaranteed to drive traffic, of course Disney's going to update it. Is a Frozen overlay more "dumb" than what was already there (trolls and an oil derrick)?

Let's also not forget about the original Rio del Tiempo ride. Mexico told Disney to make them a Small World knockoff and sent a bunch of old tourist movies from the 70s to use; they polished them as best they could, but as much as I loved that ride, I don't think anyone would disagree that it was completely insane. Updating it with the Three Caballeros -- characters wildly popular in Mexico -- makes sense culturally and aesthetically.
 

sjhym333

Well-Known Member
Norway did not sponsor their own pavilion. For some reason that seems to be a misunderstanding I see a lot. The Norway government gave its blessing and the crowned prince presided over the opening but Norway was actually sponsored by a group of Norwegian corporations that came together under an umbrella company called Norshow. The sponsors included Norwegian Cruise Line among several others. The logos used to hang at the unload area of the boat ride until their sponsorship ended. When it first opened the Norway tourism board manned a booth outside the exit but those people were eventually pulled and the tourism booth stood unattended.

The Mexican pavilion was never sponsored by the Mexican government and the Mexican government never had input into the attraction. The restaurant and the stores inside of the building were all sponsored by individual companies. A boat ride was a part of the original presentation but was different from what ended up being built. Disney thought that the government might sponsor the pavilion at one time but they never came through with the money and the pavilion was already under construction when Disney realized that they would have to pay for the building and attraction. My understanding from friends in Imagineering, who worked on the attraction, that once the money did not appear, Disney basically threw together the boat ride that was there at opening.
 

Otterhead

Well-Known Member
Very interesting. The info about Mexico is entirely different than what I've heard from others. But in both cases, the point remains: Norway had no sponsorship, and Mexico had a slapdash extremely-dated ride, and both were in need of an update.
 

sjhym333

Well-Known Member
Your point is well taken and I agree about up-dating attractions. I think the original point of the post was: does a up-dating have to include Disney characters in World Showcase attractions? I understand the reason behind it but I personally don't agree with it. That is probably one of the reasons we aren't renewing our AP's in June after having them 20+ years
 

Otterhead

Well-Known Member
I'm of a split opinion. I don't really like adding Frozen characters to Norway; as others have said, the movie's not set in Norway, it's set in Arendelle; the whole point of WS was to showcase actual countries in the most authentic way possible. But I'm completely OK with using the Three Caballeros in Mexico; those characters were specifically created for Mexico and South America in the first place, so they culturally make sense... the same way Ratatouille makes sense in France, Mary Poppins makes sense in the UK, and Brother Bear made sense (briefly) in Canada.
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think it's silly to be so cynical about the two attractions. As others have said, Norway hasn't bothered to sponsor their own pavilion in over a decade; they wouldn't pay for any maintenance or updates. Given the choice between continuing to foot the bill to upkeep a mildly popular and very dated ride or update it with a wildly popular new theme guaranteed to drive traffic, of course Disney's going to update it. Is a Frozen overlay more "dumb" than what was already there (trolls and an oil derrick)?

Let's also not forget about the original Rio del Tiempo ride. Mexico told Disney to make them a Small World knockoff and sent a bunch of old tourist movies from the 70s to use; they polished them as best they could, but as much as I loved that ride, I don't think anyone would disagree that it was completely insane. Updating it with the Three Caballeros -- characters wildly popular in Mexico -- makes sense culturally and aesthetically.
Your thoughts are in the right place, but I don't think it's really relevant who is paying for it. Disney has money and it's Disney's responsibility to put in an attraction that is quality, updated, maintained, and relevant.

3 Caballeros is not a good ride and they don't need the help of the Mexican govt to make it good.
 

Otterhead

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's really relevant who is paying for it.

In EPCOT, it's extremely relevant. They've used a sponsorship model in that park since day one, and the sponsors -- when they can get them -- have very much guided the ride design. Maelstrom wore its sponsorship on its sleeve (remember getting off the ride in the little town full of Norwegian ads?), and sjhym333 pointed out what happened with Mexico when sponsorship dropped out at the last minute.

For what it's worth, I agree that Three Caballeros isn't a great ride, but I can't imagine the hell of rehabbing that ride into something entirely different, given how integrated it is with the restaurant and pavilion.
 
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ChrisFL

Premium Member
To discuss World Showcase specifically, let's remember the era when it was designed and built...from the late 1960's as they changed the plans from a City to a theme park experience. The idea of international areas WAS a part of Walt's EPCOT city plan, so the World Showcase idea "fits", but they made a lot of changes.

So as they were trying to wrestle with the idea of how to bring this to life, remember there was no internet, no smartphones, and BARELY anything like Cable TV....meaning that the idea of seeing different countries, cultures and representatives was a very unique and novel idea. Now we can just turn on the Travel Channel or surf Youtube for tons of information about those countries...plus international cuisine dishes and restaurants are spreading all over the U.S..

The novelty factor was wearing off a bit.

I am not making excuses for what they are doing now, as there are MANY BETTER ways to move forward and provide a more immersive and educational experience.
 

SMS55

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's that sinister. America's getting dumber all on its own. In Disney's case - it's all about profit.

You can't blame it all on Disney. A long time ago people told Disney they didn't like learning while on vacation. Disney is just giving people what they want.
 

mousehockey37

Well-Known Member
They made a movie about it...Idiocracy

See my post at the beginning of the thread... A little paraphrasing and you have "Welcome to Didney Wurl, I love you!"

As for the "dumbing" of things. Look no further than the state standardized tests in the schools. Teachers are more or less forced to teach to what's on the test and not what is actually useful for the students.

As I've said elsewhere, these survey takers are asking generic questions that Disney already has the answers to. Where are you from? etc. Um, hello, scan my magic band, it's linked to my MDE account where that info is.

The value of education is lower than that of the entertainment industry. FutureWorld, if redone correctly, could reignite kids imaginations and such, which unfortunately due to the demand of satisfactory fillings of A, B, C or D on a bubble sheet, may never happen.

There are even threads on these boards about if Imagineers are out of ideas for things.

So to dumb down Disney and give the sheeple what they want? Sure, if 2 young girls dressed like movie characters and a person in a snowman costume gets people lined up for hours, then why not run with that cheap alternative to a multi-million dollar attraction. For the record, when I'm at Disney and meet characters, I'm outside of "reality" and I'm actually meeting the characters, even though I know they are exactly what I stated earlier, 2 kids doing a job.
 

FettFan

Well-Known Member
Exactly, lol.

Unlike in the US, the Disney's outside of the US aren't, let's say, "kid friendly"? The over sensitivity of people in the United States leads to the "softer" side of the villains, unlike Capt. Hook here pictured above. They're able to be more devious, and portray their character better because well, this isn't the US anymore. If you have a problem, move along. Sure, the villains at WDW will mess with you, but these villains in DLP are mean looking from the start.

What's really painful is that we all know what Captain Hook SHOULD look like as a face character.
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I really have no idea how DLP came up with their weird Hook monstrosity.
 

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