finger scan controversy?

[Space Mountain]

its just the news trying to get a story..

 

[Fievel]

Okay....I'm in law enforcement, so I have some insight here.

If disney was storing the entire fingerprint of every "magical pass" person, that would be a huge database to maintain. I'm actually fairly certain that they are breaking it down to a numerical value, as that is very commonplace for "quick scan" technology such as what I'm sure they're using.

Basically, it works like this:

Each fingerprint has certain characteristics about it, whether it be deltas in the print, whorls, or arches. Now, on certain parts of those prints, the number of ridges can be counted to the center of or to other distinguishing traits. We use something similar to anybody that comes into the jail that is an arrest from our own county. Their numerical value is stored in a database. We take their 2 index fingers and scan them, and within about 10 seconds, the little machine tells us who we have. If they had to exactly match the print, the file size for each person would be huge, much less trying to exactly match every print....we'd be waiting forever for verification for each person to exactly match. I haven't seen it miss yet.

As for storing the prints - even our jail purges the pictures of the prints as soon as possible to a larger database, and onto print. It is simply too much data to store on any one system. If disney wanted to store the whole print, they'd have to pony up more money than it'd be worth to fight the fraud they are trying to?

Now - is it possible for 2 mathematical values to be the same? Sure....but it's about the same as winning the lottery. There are that many little combinations that can happen. You can't just give your ticket to someone who has the same size finger, because it's not just looking at that anymore. They've taken pretty much every step they can to prevent this, short of a background check.


I'm not sure if this helps. I've tried to simplify things to keep it short.

Long story short - I wouldn't worry about this

 

[Plutoboy]

I agree that someone is just trying to make an issue out of nothing...also agreed that if you do not like it then don't go. However I'm curious as to why Disneyland and the other resorts do not use this technology?? I have a sister in Imagineering and she has told me that it will not be rolled out at any of the other resorts.

 

[Master Yoda]

I agree that someone is just trying to make an issue out of nothing...also agreed that if you do not like it then don't go. However I'm curious as to why Disneyland and the other resorts do not use this technology?? I have a sister in Imagineering and she has told me that it will not be rolled out at any of the other resorts.

I would have to guess this is due to lower attendance when you compare DL to WDW. After that it is just a matter of running some statistical data and then doing a cost analysis.

*** These numbers are just pulled out of thin air and have no base in reality and are simply being used for comparison. ***

If the data shows that DL looses 1 million a year due to ticket fraud and it will cost 1.5 million to reduce or eliminate it then there will be a negative return on investment. On the other side of the coin if WDW as a whole is loosing 50 million a year and it costs 10 million to fix the problem they come out ahead.

 

[mousermerf]

Okay....I'm in law enforcement, so I have some insight here.

If disney was storing the entire fingerprint of every "magical pass" person, that would be a huge database to maintain. I'm actually fairly certain that they are breaking it down to a numerical value, as that is very commonplace for "quick scan" technology such as what I'm sure they're using.

Basically, it works like this:

Each fingerprint has certain characteristics about it, whether it be deltas in the print, whorls, or arches. Now, on certain parts of those prints, the number of ridges can be counted to the center of or to other distinguishing traits. We use something similar to anybody that comes into the jail that is an arrest from our own county. Their numerical value is stored in a database. We take their 2 index fingers and scan them, and within about 10 seconds, the little machine tells us who we have. If they had to exactly match the print, the file size for each person would be huge, much less trying to exactly match every print....we'd be waiting forever for verification for each person to exactly match. I haven't seen it miss yet.

As for storing the prints - even our jail purges the pictures of the prints as soon as possible to a larger database, and onto print. It is simply too much data to store on any one system. If disney wanted to store the whole print, they'd have to pony up more money than it'd be worth to fight the fraud they are trying to?

Now - is it possible for 2 mathematical values to be the same? Sure....but it's about the same as winning the lottery. There are that many little combinations that can happen. You can't just give your ticket to someone who has the same size finger, because it's not just looking at that anymore. They've taken pretty much every step they can to prevent this, short of a background check.


I'm not sure if this helps. I've tried to simplify things to keep it short.

Long story short - I wouldn't worry about this

Everyone keeps talking like WDW is keeping something akin to a law enforncement type scan, it really isn't. It's a far "dumber" system that has far less accuracy - because it doesn't need it. If it beeps angrily, no one goes to jail, they just need to produce photo ID.

 

[Master Yoda]

Everyone keeps talking like WDW is keeping something akin to a law enforncement type scan, it really isn't. It's a far "dumber" system that has far less accuracy - because it doesn't need it. If it beeps angrily, no one goes to jail, they just need to produce photo ID.

Correct. From my understanding it is not even as accurate as the finger scanners now appearing on laptop computers.

I don't think Disney could use actual finger print scanners even if they wanted to. The database would rival that of the IRS's in size not to mention it would take several minutes to check in each guest. Even if they got that number down to 1 minuet that is nearly 10 times longer than the current 2 finger system.

 

[no2apprentice]

As for storing the prints - even our jail purges the pictures of the prints as soon as possible to a larger database, and onto print. It is simply too much data to store on any one system. If disney wanted to store the whole print, they'd have to pony up more money than it'd be worth to fight the fraud they are trying to?

Fievel hit the nail right on the head with this point. Many people who come in to be fingerprinted for a mandatory background check (teachers, doctors, other job-related reasons) ask me if this means their prints will be on file forever. At the FBI, applicant cards submitted for a history check are destroyed after prints have been checked against the criminal database. The expense of maintaining a database on appilcant submissions would be incredible. If Disney says the data is only stored for 30 days, I'd say that I wouldn't be surprised if they cut it to 20 days, just to save the money.

 

[scpergj]

other references

I have to agree that Disney is doing nothing wrong here. As previously stated, the size of the database to store actual prints (or even print points) would be HUGE. I actually have experience in this one...I'm a DBA for a large defence contractor, and we have some very large databases. Searching a database the size that would be required for fingerprints at WDW would take over a minute per person...there is no way they can be storing all of that information and retreiving it quick enough to use.

I do not have a security clearance, but I work with many people that do. They have to be fingerprinted for their clearance. Adult volunteers in our school district have to be fingerprinted and are subjected to a background check, as our the coaches on our local little league. To cash a check in certain banks and stores you have to put a thumbprint on the check. Fingerprints are being taken everywhere. To be upset over a scan of your print that is then used to create a number that is then sort of a PIN for your ticket is a bit overboard.

That's just my opinion...

Kevin

 

[sdwsq2005]

Geez...leave up to the ACLU to take the fun out of everything! What's next??

 

[Dwarful]

Perhaps the ACLU was taking up the cause for all the masses of people who jam up the lines because they can't figure out HOW to use the system! That is the only reason that makes any sense to me!


I am honestly amazed at the number of people we see at the parks who are unable to enter w/o assistance from a CM...they can't insert their tickets correctly, they can't put the right digit in the spot to scan, they can't figure out...should mom go first, then the kids and then dad or should the kids go in first, then mom and then dad.....you get the drift and I'm sure you've all run into these families.

 

[AEfx]

:wave: I'd be glad to. We've been to WDW many times over the last 25 years, and I shudder to think of all the $ we've spent, but it's been worth it. I guess I just look back to when you could share your multi-day tickets with friends and family, and to me the whole finger scan so you can't share or sell the tickets that you have already paid for is greedy.
Don't go off all Disney can do-no-wrong on me please. We all love going there, but face it, it is getting very spendy $$$$$

A couple of notes :

1) Tickets have actually gotten cheaper for most people going on vacation to WDW. Most people spend 5-7 days on property and tickets for those people are now cheaper than they were before MYW began.

2) You never have been able to share or sell your used tickets...legally. I certainly don't think "disney does no wrong", but it only makes sense that they don't allow it, and the law in the state of Florida backs them up.

Unfortunately, because so many people abused the system we now have to deal with these scanners. However you may feel about them, the rules and laws regarding theme park admission have not changed, they simply had to step up enforcement.

As to the topic of personal information/fingerprints, just another example of bad journalism from someone who just didn't have the facts. A similar story appeared a few months ago about the new Nintendo handheld, Nintendo DS. Some crappy "action!" news station in CA I believe did some crappy investigating into the handheld, which has wireless capabilities. They wrote this whole story about how little kids were walking around with this and could be found by preadators and molested, etc., etc. - and it turns out they didn't even realize that the thing has an effective range of about 25 feet, and you have to consent to any interaction on it.

Same story here...it's a shame what passes for journalism sometime. Usually it's online I see this - like electronic gaming sites that write articles about things they just don't understand, or people who see a piece of concept art on the internet and create a whole "insider" backstory that doesn't exist...but it's surprising to see such blatant misinformation about a topic where the truth is so readily available.

AEfx

 

[The Mom]

Perhaps the ACLU was taking up the cause for all the masses of people who jam up the lines because they can't figure out HOW to use the system! That is the only reason that makes any sense to me!


I am honestly amazed at the number of people we see at the parks who are unable to enter w/o assistance from a CM...they can't insert their tickets correctly, they can't put the right digit in the spot to scan, they can't figure out...should mom go first, then the kids and then dad or should the kids go in first, then mom and then dad.....you get the drift and I'm sure you've all run into these families.

I have no doubt that many (or even most) are clueless, but many are just folks who have arthritis. (And osteoarthritis is extremely common in those over 50...with all the time kids spend online at a keyboard, it may be even more common in a few decades) As I've stated many times, if I "record" my biometrics for my AP, then come back on a day when I'm having a flare-up, the scanner often fails to recognize me. This resulted in the CM telling me to try again, readjust your fingers, etc until finally checking my ID and waving me through.

I've tried NOT recording it, and using photo ID only, but then I have to deal with CMs who keep telling me that I need to put my finger(s) in the scanner, despite my waving my license under their noses and telling them I can't do it!

So either way, the people behind me get delayed, and talk about the idiot who can't use the system.

 

[NASAMan]

Correct. From my understanding it is not even as accurate as the finger scanners now appearing on laptop computers.

Mythbusters did a great show on how to beat this, and other security measures (wonder if they will be called as witnesses should their techniques result in 'foul play'!)

But let me get this straight. Sam buys a 5 day ticket and does the finger scan. A measurement of fingerprint produces a set of numbers like 2,5,3,4, and a computation set (like, for instance a x b / c + d) produces the number '7' which is then assigned to the ticket. So Sam decides after 3 days to sell the ticket on eBay. Bill buys it. The chance of Bill having a fingerprint that yeilds the same number is small: possible, but small. So Bill can't use the ticket. BTW, here are other data sets that yield the same result: 5,2,2,2; 4,4,5,4; 3,4,2,1; 4,3,2,1. So defining the exact fingerprint of someone from the ticket would merely give you all possible data sets. Enough for Disney, but not enough for any type of law enforcement.

So why is Disney do this? To give costumers a better value. A 5 day base ticket costs $206. Sam finds out for just $10 more he can get a 10 day ticket.so he figures he buys the 10 day, uses up 5 days, and then sells it to Bill for $120 on eBay. Bill feels like he has a bargain, but Disney is out $206 and Sam made a profit at Disney's expense. So Disney beefs up its security to ensure that tickets cannot be used by other than the purchaser.

The case was made because the ACLU works from donations and anytime it can get its name in the news it benifits from those who listen to its hype, much like televangelists. Most people don't care, don't *need* to care, and this will all pass quickly as the ACLU looks for another target.

 

[kcnole]

Disney is obviously not storing a fingerprint, they're storing a number that results from the fingerprint scan. Even if you know the formula you can't reverse engineer the fingerprint from that number. A number is a fairly inconsequential amount of information compared to how much info of you they already have on file.

So again, when you scan your finger, it compares the points, runs a quick calculation and if that equals the number stored in the database then you're allowed in. That's all there is to this. It's not a privacy issue as the information contained in the database is fairly useless to anyone except for Disney.

 

[Fievel]

Mythbusters did a great show on how to beat this, and other security measures (wonder if they will be called as witnesses should their techniques result in 'foul play'!)

But let me get this straight. Sam buys a 5 day ticket and does the finger scan. A measurement of fingerprint produces a set of numbers like 2,5,3,4, and a computation set (like, for instance a x b / c + d) produces the number '7' which is then assigned to the ticket. So Sam decides after 3 days to sell the ticket on eBay. Bill buys it. The chance of Bill having a fingerprint that yeilds the same number is small: possible, but small. So Bill can't use the ticket. BTW, here are other data sets that yield the same result: 5,2,2,2; 4,4,5,4; 3,4,2,1; 4,3,2,1. So defining the exact fingerprint of someone from the ticket would merely give you all possible data sets. Enough for Disney, but not enough for any type of law enforcement.

So why is Disney do this? To give costumers a better value. A 5 day base ticket costs $206. Sam finds out for just $10 more he can get a 10 day ticket.so he figures he buys the 10 day, uses up 5 days, and then sells it to Bill for $120 on eBay. Bill feels like he has a bargain, but Disney is out $206 and Sam made a profit at Disney's expense. So Disney beefs up its security to ensure that tickets cannot be used by other than the purchaser.

The case was made because the ACLU works from donations and anytime it can get its name in the news it benifits from those who listen to its hype, much like televangelists. Most people don't care, don't *need* to care, and this will all pass quickly as the ACLU looks for another target.

It's not that simple....it's a mixture of numbers and letters that define each fingerprint. So you can't simply have multiple combinations to get to the same end result. Like I've said before...this isn't like 1 in 1000 people will have the same combination.....it's more like your chance of being struck by lightning.

 

[mousermerf]

It's not that simple....it's a mixture of numbers and letters that define each fingerprint. So you can't simply have multiple combinations to get to the same end result. Like I've said before...this isn't like 1 in 1000 people will have the same combination.....it's more like your chance of being struck by lightning.

Too bad you wont accept it's not an actual fingerprint recognition system then, eh?

 

[Punkss]

Doesn't bother me, I am happy just to be there, if they want or the US government wants my fingerprint they can have it. If they get a calculation relating to my fingerprint...woo lucky them.


I trust more respectable organisaations such as Disney with my details, I'm sure if you wanted to find enough details on me they are around on the internet somewhere anyway.

 

[Master Yoda]

It's not that simple....it's a mixture of numbers and letters that define each fingerprint. So you can't simply have multiple combinations to get to the same end result. Like I've said before...this isn't like 1 in 1000 people will have the same combination.....it's more like your chance of being struck by lightning.

For the system used in your line of work you would be correct. The system used at Disney is not that smart. The accuracy is about 1 in 100 which is about the same as the previous two finger biometric scan. The single finger scan is simply an easier system to use hence quicker which should result in quicker moving lines at the turnstiles.

 

[gibsonc]

As with the majority of tourists from the UK, Europe and the rest of the world now I get to give the US government my photo and finger prints when I land at the airport or I don't get into the US. I trust Disney more.

 

[NJDVCMembers]

Other ACLU changes..

More changes the ACLU wants:

"It's a small world" will changed to "It's a little persons world"

"The Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse" will now be changed to "The nondescript european Robinson Family Tree"

"Alien Encounter" was to have been renamed "The Undocumented Extraterrestrial Encounter", that is why Stitch took it over!

"Hall of Presidents" is to be renamed "Hall of Shrouded Tyrants" (They seem to hate Presidents, which ever political affiliation.)

"Main Street USA" is to be renamed "Capitalistic Imperial Boulevard"

"Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party" will now be know as "Mickey's Winter Event" unless of course he converts to Islam, then it can be "Mickey's Very Islamic Ramadan" after all according to the ACLU, Christians and Jews are the majority, Muslims aren't therefore they get extra protection under the ACLU's interpretation of the Constitution.

One final note...

SCREW the ACLU!!!

Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah!!!