Fastpass Return Times

[EpcotServo]

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[AndyLL]

I don't disagree that Cast are being told to do this. However, if they wanted to change the policy, they could just change it tomorrow rather than "get people used to it." Florida is overwhelmingly made up of tourists/infrequent visitors---you'd need to drag this "getting people used to it" out for a year or more to actually have the intended impact, and you'll still have Percy and Penny Passholder along with Donny DVC complaining to high heaven that "they used to be able to do this" no matter what.

That's what doesn't make sense. Why in the world would they be telling current guests that in the future it might change?

As a new policy that is...

I go to the parks (DL & WDW) 3-4 times a year and as far back as I can remember I've gotten at least one comment a trip from CMs about using a late FP. Usually its just an offhand remark about being late but several times I've been told to try to return on time and I have been told that I might not allowed in late 'next time'.

So this is not new.

In my experience of educating people able FP ( especially at DL ) both in the morning and when I'm trying to give away my unused FP, very few people know that FPs now can be used late.

This sounds like a solution searching for a problem that doesn't exist.

We all know there is a vocal group of people both low level and high level in Disney that hate FP.

I would guess that anytime interal discussion of potental FP changes take place that the anti-FP group push for tighter restrictions.

I won't worry about it until it becomes official policy. Instead I'll view it with the same amount of scepticism as I did the last few 'guaranteed' changes to FP:

1) It was already decided at an executive level to remove it for Indy.
2) No new rides would have FP.

 

[havoc315]

Normally it's inconsequential if your family of 4 returns outside of the window,

That's the key -- it's normally inconsequential. It all tends to balance out. A small percentage returning significantly late... a small percentage not even bothering to return at all.
If you happen to get in line right behind a late FP person, it can seem annoying to you as an individual. But it really isn't making a difference in the grand scheme.

So the system as it currently stands, late FPs are basically inconsequential --- So what would be consequences of a change?

As a real world example, I was waiting around Splash Mountain while the ride was "down." We were hoping it would come back up, as it was the last thing we wanted to do in Magic Kingdom that day. As we stood around the side of the FP line, people kept coming up, in their window.... And asking what about their FP return time! The CMs gave them the standard line, "Don't worry about the return time, as soon as the ride is back up, your FP is good until the end of the day."
Now... if they started enforcing the FP times, what would be done whenever a ride goes down? Not exactly a rare occurrence. Does that mean that late FPs are honored for that day only? Or will returning guests be issued new FPs with new return times? Or will guests simply be told, "the ride was down during your window... TOO BAD."
How many extra bottle necks would it take to resolve this issue?

And when a guest does return 10 minutes late for their FP return window... How many bottlenecks would be creating of guests arguing with the CMs, "Not my fault the service was so slow at Disney's restaurant!"

Not to mention the unhappy guests who are turned away.

And finally, those who really like to use a detailed touring plan for the day. These guests are great for Disney, as they tour in an organize way, without creating bottlenecks while they stand around. And they tend to be "happy guests" as their planning pays off. Late FPs allow them to pre-plan their day, without having the plan dependent on a FP return time.

As many have expressed-- the "problem" as it stands, it pretty darn inconsequential. The "solutions" could easily have more significant consequences than the problem.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Another thing I'd like to point out, in regards to late Fastpass window returns, is that Disney's "goal" is to make sure that guests holding Fastpasses, upon entering the attraction, wait 15 minutes or less. Now, the normal ratio of merging the Fastpass and standby line is 80% Fastpass and 20% standby.

But, there are times, especially after parade and show dumps on busy days, where so many Fastpass holders return at once, many of which are holding "late" tickets, that the Fastpass line backs up... sometimes all the way to the entrance. How do you still achieve that "15 minute or less" wait time goal? You adjust the merge ratio to whatever means necessary. As a result, the standby line grinds to a halt suddenly, the guests standing in this line now have a significantly increased wait time than what they were quoted.

So the biggest problem with allowing late arrivals is that it creates peaks that the system was not designed for.

 

[PirateFrank]

What I don't understand is the assumption that WDW distributes FPs evenly. Is this really the case?

It is absolutely an assumption....but I feel confident that it is a safe one. ESPECIALLY since they are not enforcing return times.

If they were enforcing return times, they could, in effect, program the system to distribute more fast passes during times when they *know* the ride can absorb it.

But the fact that it's a wide open "oh come back whenever" mentality, so long as you wait until the window opening....there's absolutely zero reason to not distribute evenly.

I'm not sure I fully agree with this.

Normalization only matters if there are some times of day when the queues are empty. Since they nearly never are, some people will wait less time because of FPs while others (i.e. the people waiting in the Standby queue) will actually wait longer. The net wait time remains unchanged. FPs do not reduce (or increase) the net wait time, it only distributes the wait time between people.

Forgive me.... "Distributes the wait time between people?" not following you, can you clarify?

Regardless, I disagree with you on a number of your points. I'm not sure an empty queue is much different than a queue that has a 3 minute wait, comparatively speaking. But even so, Ive seen *plenty* of empty queues in my times at WDW. Regardless, what does empty matter. Even if a queue is a 30 minute wait 90% of the day and a 120 minute wait 10% of the day, normalizing the wait times simply falls down to cutting down those two 120 minute waits and distributing the times amongst the remaining 90%.

Also, the net wait time does in fact change, as a result of fast pass, as the entire fast pass system *relies* on a certain number of riders who are willing to change their plans and return to the ride at a later time. If that weren't the case, why implement the system in the first place?

 

[RSoxNo1]

What I don't understand is the assumption that WDW distributes FPs evenly. Is this really the case?

WDW loves to collect data. Don't they have an idea of approximately how many people return late with their FPs, as well as how many people don't use their FPs at all eek, and adjust their FP distribution accordingly? Might they also take into account certain times of day having longer Standby lines and adjust FP distribution accordingly?

It is absolutely an assumption....but I feel confident that it is a safe one. ESPECIALLY since they are not enforcing return times.

If they were enforcing return times, they could, in effect, program the system to distribute more fast passes during times when they *know* the ride can absorb it.

But the fact that it's a wide open "oh come back whenever" mentality, so long as you wait until the window opening....there's absolutely zero reason to not distribute evenly.

Disney should have the ability to tweak the Fastpass system as ParentsOf4 outlined, but I'm not sure that they do. However what does happen is that on some attractions not all of the "6% every 5 minutes" are distributed. Disney keeps the return time at 36-40 minutes out at the minimum so if there isn't enough demand for a particular attractions' fastpasses the return time will bump up 5 minutes after the passage of 5 minutes of actual time.

I didn't quote it, but another point made by PirateFrank was regarding capacity versus wait time. He's absolutely right, any attraction could implement Fastpass, really the biggest issue is the "dispatch interval" that makes it tough on things like shows. Sure, Fastpass can work on PhilharMagic (although it's not really necessary), but guests are going to have to wait for the next show time regardless of when they show up or not. Disney isn't going to start the show as soon as the Fastpass guest shows up.

For shows, a better approach for Fastpass would be the usage that is currently taking place at DCA for World of Color. Have it be a seating assignment/preferred seating. Say you want to sit in the center for Indiana Jones, you need to get a Fastpass for that. The problem then becomes what if they don't fill that section but more Standby guests want to join in? Then those Standby guests wind up with better seats even though they showed up late.

The current complaints on the Fastpass system are concentrated on Soarin and Toy Story Mania. These complaints are better directed at the respective ride capacities for those two attractions compared to the other offerings in their respective parks. Both of these attractions exist in the same park at DCA, Toy Story Mania doesn't use Fastpass, Soarin' does. I would speculate that if Toy Story Mania added Fastpass in DCA it wouldn't run out anywhere near as quickly as it does in Hollywood Studios. That's a function of other similar offerings in that park as well as less guests visting that park.

Hollywood Studios needs more family friendly attractions to compete with Toy Story Mania. Comparitively, I think the refurbishment to Test Track will help with the Fastpass issues at Soarin'.

 

[Brian Noble]

Why in the world would they be telling current guests that in the future it might change?

For the same reason CRO told people they couldn't pick up package tickets before the package begins, even though they could if they went to Guest Services and asked.

Ultimately, I'm sure Operations would prefer it if redemptions always happened in-window. At the same time, the principles of guest service suggest that, all things being equal, they would like to accommodate guests with legitimate delays. Over the past several years, the Cast took that willingness and flat-out advertised it to anyone who would listen: "Oh just come back any time after it starts, it will be okay."

The new modus operandi, where the Cast if asked will tell guests to return in-window, but the policy allowing late returns doesn't actually change, is a clever solution. It gives guests the impression that the return time is firm, which will nudge them to make a better effort to return on time. This cuts down on out-of-window redemptions, but still allows those legitimate delays with the benefit of just blanket-allowing late returns. Namely, it doesn't require the Cast to enforce some nebulous "some reasons/delays are okay" standards that can only lead to bad guest/Cast interactions.

Again, my read could be flat-out wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But, this feels more like social engineering than a policy change. If it really were an Operational problem, you'd think that DLR would bite the bullet first---they have a much higher fraction of "in-the-know" guests who routinely use late arrivals, and have for years.

 

[Reddog]

I hope I can explain this with a simple example.

Let's say that a ride can dispatch 1 person per minute and that 11 people enter the Standby queue at the same instant. The first person waits 0 minutes, the second person 1 minute, etc. The total wait time is 55 minutes (0+1+2+3+ ...). Now let's give a FP to one of those 11 people that can be exercised at any time. If that person chooses to exercise their FP privilege immediately, then the 10 people in the Standby line still wait a total of 55 minutes, but the first person waits 1 minute (instead of 0 minutes), the second person 2 minutes (instead of 1 minute), etc. Taken to the other extreme, let's assume that the FP person waits until the 10 Standby people finished. Those 10 people waited 45 minutes while the FP person waited 10 minutes, the FP person just didn't wait in line. In theory (and I think this is WDW's goal), that one FP person could spend those 10 minutes (and their money!) elsewhere.

This is a highly simplified of the principle of queuing but hopefully this makes a bit more sense.

The net effect is that the total wait time is still the same since the ride has a fixed capacity. However, how that time is spent is different. This is why a FP system can result in increased revenue. Rather than waiting 55 minutes in line, some of the time (10 minutes in this example) is spent doing other things, including (as WDW hopes) spending money shopping or eating.

I don't think the issue is the overall effect, it's the hour to hour effect.

The overall effect of FP for the end of the day is the same but the intent is to keep it's hourly effect at a constant level.

 

[PirateFrank]

I hope I can explain this with a simple example.

Let's say that a ride can dispatch 1 person per minute....

Woah! stop right there. (I've read the rest of your post, but I've snipped it to save space)

You're making the capacity argument that I addressed above. Capacity is a constant. It never changes. You can't cite the fixed rate that a ride eats people as a factor when determining what affects wait times, as it can not and never will change.

The issue here is wait times. Not capacity. A ride can dispatch 1ppm, 2ppm or 100ppm....but if the amount of people that are waiting in the queue exceed the rate that the ride dispatches guests (referred to as capacity here on the boards)....it no longer matters. as soon as a queue develops, it can be affected by several variables.....because the size of the queue exceeds the capacity rate of the ride. Just *one* person on line, and capacity is *no* longer a consideration in this discussion.

 

[peachykeen]

Acronym alert! Whats a GAC card?

GAC = Guest Assistance Card.

I always laugh to myself when I hear people (myself included) say "GAC card" because the "C" is card. So you're saying "Guest Assistance Card Card."

 

[Hercules11]

I believe that's the case. A certain number of FPs are allocated for each <enter your time subdivision here> of the day. Once they are all distributed. No more, unless there's a cast member override.

I suspect (and this is how I would do it) that each attraction is different and that the number of fast passes issued per minute or per hour, is some pre-determined percentage of the attraction's actual capacity. However, if TDO is distributing a set number, irrespective of the ride's capacity, that would explain why TSM is such a Charlie Fox!

CM's can't override anything if all the FP are gone. The only thing they can override is whether or not the guest is using a park ticket to print the FP.

The number is based on percentage of OHRC, but the percentage is adjusted hourly to account for how busy or slow that time of day is expected to be. Not that it really matters all that much since end times aren't enforced; everyone arrives during the busy times anyway.

 

[JeffH]

Reality check...

Getting a fastpass is like getting a reservation. You reserve your spot in the fastpass line for that specific time

It is nothing of the sort...fastpass is a virtual line holder, your fastpass represents you as if you had gotten in line and waited like everyone else except instead of waiting locked in a stupid line you are free to shop eat or enjoy other attractions. And after you've 'served' your wait time (the actual line+the waiting of those with fastpasses before you) you can go on the attraction. So after you've 'earned' your ride by waiting your turn you should be able to ride whenever you want/can.
It is also absurd to think that I don't deserve a fastpass if my dining reservations conflict with the return time...I'm there and should be able to start 'serving my time'...Now if you could actually reserve a FP later time, then that would be great, otherwise it should stay the way it is.
The argument against accepting FPs after the return time assumes that a multitude of people will then do it and drastically upset the balance of the distribution, which I don't see happening. I've known about this policy for years and only take advantage of it when I need to, while normally returning to the attraction shortly after the return time (since the reason I got the FP was because I wanted to ride it...ASAP).

And I also hate morons who arrive early and block the FP entrance, they should be told to wait 'way over there...' somewhere. I barrel right through them without an excuse me.

 

[Tom Morrow]

The argument against accepting FPs after the return time assumes that a multitude of people will then do it and drastically upset the balance of the distribution, which I don't see happening.

Any attractions Cast Member who works/has worked an attraction with high demand and Fastpass will tell you that, while you would think it would not happen, it indeed does, and it definitely does throw off balance.

 

[Neverland]

GAC = Guest Assistance Card.

I always laugh to myself when I hear people (myself included) say "GAC card" because the "C" is card. So you're saying "Guest Assistance Card Card."

I only say it because when you say 'GAC' out loud, it sounds like 'gak' (because no one says G-A-C). "Excuse me, may I use my gak here?" "Which line does the gak go in?" "I just saw about fifty gaks in the fastpass line." :lol:

It is nothing of the sort...fastpass is a virtual line holder, your fastpass represents you as if you had gotten in line and waited like everyone else except instead of waiting locked in a stupid line you are free to shop eat or enjoy other attractions. And after you've 'served' your wait time (the actual line+the waiting of those with fastpasses before you) you can go on the attraction.

Yes, a virtual line holder. It saves you a spot in line for a specific time, like a reservation. A reservation at a restaurant saves you a table for a specific time, and a fastpass lets you on a ride at a specific time.

 

[draybook]

Yes, a virtual line holder. It saves you a spot in line for a specific time, like a reservation. A reservation at a restaurant saves you a table for a specific time, and a fastpass lets you on a ride at a specific time.

Except that the Fastpass specifically states that they accept no early arrivals but leaves out anything about late arrivals. With a reservation, I believe they consider you a no show after a certain time period, is that correct?

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

GAC = Guest Assistance Card.

I always laugh to myself when I hear people (myself included) say "GAC card" because the "C" is card. So you're saying "Guest Assistance Card Card."

Thank you. And what is a Guest Assistance Card?

 

[Fractal514]

It is nothing of the sort...fastpass is a virtual line holder, your fastpass represents you as if you had gotten in line and waited like everyone else except instead of waiting locked in a stupid line you are free to shop eat or enjoy other attractions. And after you've 'served' your wait time (the actual line+the waiting of those with fastpasses before you) you can go on the attraction. So after you've 'earned' your ride by waiting your turn you should be able to ride whenever you want/can.
It is also absurd to think that I don't deserve a fastpass if my dining reservations conflict with the return time...I'm there and should be able to start 'serving my time'...Now if you could actually reserve a FP later time, then that would be great, otherwise it should stay the way it is.
The argument against accepting FPs after the return time assumes that a multitude of people will then do it and drastically upset the balance of the distribution, which I don't see happening. I've known about this policy for years and only take advantage of it when I need to, while normally returning to the attraction shortly after the return time (since the reason I got the FP was because I wanted to ride it...ASAP).

And I also hate morons who arrive early and block the FP entrance, they should be told to wait 'way over there...' somewhere. I barrel right through them without an excuse me.

I disagree, I think you are absurd for thinking that even though you won't be able to use the fastpass during the intended time, you take one anyway. You may not see it happening, but others do, and frankly I don't see why it would be so hard for people to just follow the simple rule of returning during a one hour window. What is absurd is the sense of entitlement that some folks have.

 

[peachykeen]

Thank you. And what is a Guest Assistance Card?

Haha, don't get me started :lookaroun alright too late...

It is basically a red and white card that has various stamps on it to let a CM know that a Guest might have a certain disability than may not be apparent. For example, one stamp allows the party to sit in the front row of theaters/ride vehicles if they have a hearing/sight issue. But by far, the most requested stamp is "Alternate Entrance." This stamp allows Guests to use the wheelchair accesible queue, which on most attractions at MK, is either FP or the exit (on occasion, such as Peter Pan, the GAC gets you in faster than FP, and can theoretically be used as many times as the Guest wants, although some CMs at the attraction will try to stop the re-riders.)

The sad thing is that people come to Guest Relations with the "medical" reason of "My kid can't wait in long lines." Or "the pass so I can go to the front of the lines." And since Disney really can't deny the pass to anyone, the Guest will 99% of the time receive the pass.

GAC for legitimately ill people = great
GAC for kids who "can't wait in long lines" = bane of my life

You will see people limp into Guest Relations saying that they have trouble standing, etc. Then literally watch them run out waving the GAC in the air to their party.

When I was little, I didn't like to wait in lines either (what little kid does...), but my parents didn't use that as a "medical" excuse to skip the lines.

 

[G00fyDad]

I disagree, I think you are absurd for thinking that even though you won't be able to use the fastpass during the intended time, you take one anyway. You may not see it happening, but others do, and frankly I don't see why it would be so hard for people to just follow the simple rule of returning during a one hour window. What is absurd is the sense of entitlement that some folks have.

While I do agree that the level of entitlement in people these days is off the chart (probably due to the stupid insane "Time out" deal ) I think that the most absurd thing here is that people are actually arguing about something that they cannot change. No amount of back and forth arguing (No, this is no longer a "spirited debate" thread) is going to make Disney divert from any path that they may be choosing. If Disney does decide to make the change then they will otherwise they won't.

 

[AEfx]

But seriously...this would be great and fix a lot of the problems with the current fastpass system.

I think that's fan perception, not Disney's, though.

I've talked to a few people about that in particular, and it really has no measurable effect on wait times. What little it could matter is factored into the calculations they use to produce FP to begin with, i.e. how many per time window they generate before moving to the next window.

Basically, because a good amount of people never come back to use the FP at all, and that even though it's common knowledge on boards like this that you can enter after the time it's still far from common knowledge to the average Disney guest. A few dozen people an hour isn't throwing off anything significantly.

Personally, I've definitely utilized this "undocumented feature", but then again, if I was turned away, I'd never argue it. It is the stated times on the ticket, and I view it as a nice gesture that they generally let you still use it. Should I be denied, I'd figure there was a good reason for it and it is within the rules.