Fastpass Return Times

[patricia27]

You were lucky. I've been at TSMM at 10 AM and all FPs were gone!

It`s such a good ride!! I just love it--there is great competition between me and my husband, as to who gets the higher score!!!

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

You reserve your spot in the fastpass line for that specific time, so the numbers don't get all wonky (although honestly it's the huge amount of GAC cards that make FP lines so long).

Acronym alert! Whats a GAC card?

 

[menamechris]

It doesn't matter how many times you tell people this. I still laugh a little when I see the comments made here. CMs like yourself can tell people until you're blue in the face that you are actively being told to discourage this practice because the policy will be changing and people here on these boards will still refuse to admit it and will actually claim it isn't happening.

I think that you are a little off-base here. No one is saying that it couldn't happen. Most comments have simply been commenting on why Disney most likely has not implemented a system up to this point. You are the only one really who has been overanalyzing the scenario with bullet point presentations. So - now a cast member has said this is something management is actually discussing and may be enforcing to some degree. That's fine. It's not a matter of not "admitting it" or "claiming it isn't going to happen"....

 

[G00fyDad]

I think that you are a little off-base here. No one is saying that it couldn't happen. Most comments have simply been commenting on why Disney most likely has not implemented a system up to this point. You are the only one really who has been overanalyzing the scenario with bullet point presentations. So - now a cast member has said this is something management is actually discussing and may be enforcing to some degree. That's fine. It's not a matter of not "admitting it" or "claiming it isn't going to happen"....

No. It seems to be you that is minimizing the situation. Try reading some of the threads on this topic. There are a majority of people that are mixed on the subject but there are some (the ones I was talking about) that are flat out denying the idea and telling everyone that it will not, absolutely not, happen.

 

[wm49rs]

I think that you are a little off-base here. No one is saying that it couldn't happen. Most comments have simply been commenting on why Disney most likely has not implemented a system up to this point. You are the only one really who has been overanalyzing the scenario with bullet point presentations. So - now a cast member has said this is something management is actually discussing and may be enforcing to some degree. That's fine. It's not a matter of not "admitting it" or "claiming it isn't going to happen"....

I wouldn't be too concerned about the comments rambling about here. Because what the vast majority of us aren't aware of is that by and by they don't impact the decision over the FPs one lick. The CMs will enforce (or not) this new policy to the degree they deem necessary on occasion. And soon enough the visitors will be more in tune with returning during their window....

Anything else tossed about here is just noise from the bleating masses. :wave:

 

[PirateFrank]

I'm probably in the minority, but if Disney is indeed moving in the direction of enforcing return times, I applaud it! The fast pass system, is a rider re-distribution system that is designed to smooth out peaks and valleys of rider waits. Ideally, the goal is to take a percentage of riders and evenly redistributing them out throughout the remainder of the day.

The system isn't perfect and has it's issues that impact effectiveness. For example. If the the total allotted amount of fast pass tickets are not distributed throughout a day, you will get a bubble of rider waits in the return times of FPs that were distributed. In addition, you will not get the benefit of rider redistribution in the later part of the day where FPs were not distributed. So for it to work fully as intended, you need to distribute all the FPs. Also, in order for true, intended normalization to occur, you need to enforce return time. Without doing so, the goal of rider normalization isn't realized. Instead you are effectively redistributing riders towards the end of the day....again, creating a bubble that really serves no purpose, and some may argue that FPs other goals, like Guest convenience, are negatively impacted due to increased wait times later in the day.

Now, is this a big deal? likely not. The percentages of FPs given out is probably not significant enough to really cause that big of a deal, but I strongly suspect that TDO or DP brass had full on intentions of making FP far more prevalent in the parks -- Far more the norm. I suspect they were hoping to force guests to put greater reliance in FastPass in the past 10 years, but couldn't get guests to budge on the concept. Hell! They call the alternative 'standby'!!! what does that say to you?

Now, people will argue with me on the above points, especially the issue about not enforcing return times reducing the effectiveness of the system but there is zero, and I really do mean, ZERO operational benefit to redistributing a bubble of riders towards the end of the day. It simply doesn't make any sense.....


I would prefer that they just get rid of the system and put the resources into increasing overall rider capacities in the park....I feel the system, in certain rides (cough, cough, TSM, cough) is am absolutely awful impact to the wait times....but that's not going to happen. Not when Disney wants to double down with this X-pass idiocy.


So at the end of the day, FP in some form is here to stay. I say, if they are going to employ the system, employ it as designed and make it work as intended.....and that means telling crybaby guests to come during the friggin return window next time....

 

[G00fyDad]

I don't really care if it is enforced or not. Really. I just commented earlier on the hard headed people that are telling the actual CMs that it isn't (not the "might not" but isn't) going to happen.

That being said, aren't there a set number of FPs distributed throughout the day and not a percentage? What I mean is, I thought that each FP ride gave out 10 FPs for each minute of each hour until the last hour of park operation. For example, EE would give out 10 FPs for 9:00 - 10:00. Then another 10 for 9:01 - 10:01 and so on throughout the remainder of the day. I'm just asking because I had heard that somewhere and want to know if it is right.

 

[PirateFrank]

That being said, aren't there a set number of FPs distributed throughout the day and not a percentage? What I mean is, I thought that each FP ride gave out 10 FPs for each minute of each hour until the last hour of park operation. For example, EE would give out 10 FPs for 9:00 - 10:00. Then another 10 for 9:01 - 10:01 and so on throughout the remainder of the day. I'm just asking because I had heard that somewhere and want to know if it is right.

I believe that's the case. A certain number of FPs are allocated for each <enter your time subdivision here> of the day. Once they are all distributed. No more, unless there's a cast member override.

I suspect (and this is how I would do it) that each attraction is different and that the number of fast passes issued per minute or per hour, is some pre-determined percentage of the attraction's actual capacity. However, if TDO is distributing a set number, irrespective of the ride's capacity, that would explain why TSM is such a Charlie Fox!

 

[G00fyDad]

I believe that's the case. A certain number of FPs are allocated for each <enter your time subdivision here> of the day. Once they are all distributed. No more, unless there's a cast member override.

I suspect (and this is how I would do it) that each attraction is different and that the number of fast passes issued per minute or per hour, is some pre-determined percentage of the attraction's actual capacity. However, if TDO is distributing a set number, irrespective of the ride's capacity, that would explain why TSM is such a Charlie Fox!

I've seen the CMs at TSM (only once mind you) open the machines and hand them out based on the number of room keys you had. That was a mistake. People were telling them that they were part of a Grand Gathering and needed 10 FPs only to go back and meet up with their one and only other vacation partner laughing about it. But that was the only time I have ever seen that happen. All in all we should really be thankful that we have the FP system for free at all. Six Flags near here in Louisville, KY at one time charged for their version of a FP, when they had it. And US/IOA charge for one too don't they? Even when they do enforce the times everyone should remember (And I think most here do) that the system is a perk and not a right.

 

[Reddog]

I don't see how late FP's affect the system at all.

The ride has the same capacity regardless of whether you return "on time" or "late".

 

[G00fyDad]

I don't see how late FP's affect the system at all.

The ride has the same capacity regardless of whether you return "on time" or "late".

I think that the ones that are upset about the late FPs are assuming everyone comes in at the same time creating a bottleneck of sorts. That may be the case but only to a small extent. I can see late FPs bottlenecking an attraction right after normal meal times when groups of people decide that they are finished eating and want to ride the attraction, but only slightly.

 

[Brian Noble]

CMs like yourself can tell people until you're blue in the face that you are actively being told to discourage this practice because the policy will be changing and people here on these boards will still refuse to admit it and will actually claim it isn't happening.

I don't disagree that Cast are being told to do this. However, if they wanted to change the policy, they could just change it tomorrow rather than "get people used to it." Florida is overwhelmingly made up of tourists/infrequent visitors---you'd need to drag this "getting people used to it" out for a year or more to actually have the intended impact, and you'll still have Percy and Penny Passholder along with Donny DVC complaining to high heaven that "they used to be able to do this" no matter what.

What's more, think back to other related changes---when Re-Entry and Rider Switch passes went from good-forever to expiring, and the dates on FPs made more obvious to even further discourage days-old use, there was no warning. It just happened. After the initial ZOMG CHANGE!1!!1 reaction around the Disneyana on-line community, the earth continued spinning. The only real impact was that the revenue stream going to those Cast Members skimming Re-Entries for later sale on eBay was mostly choked off.

Again, I'm not saying it can't happen, or it won't happen, and I've been wrong before. But, this still feels a lot more like the "You can't pick up package tickets early" meme that CRO was handing out when the last iteration of "free" dining was released. Anyone who booked a "free" dining package, linked to a prior night or two of room-only to get around blackout dates, was told, unprompted, that they would not be able to get their package tickets until the day they checked in for the package. You still *can* pick them up a day or three before your package starts, but Disney would prefer it if you assumed you couldn't, because the blackout dates are there for a reason.

All in all we should really be thankful that we have the FP system for free at all.

That's right. The two operators not named "Disney" who had a free version at one time (Universal and Cedar Fair) have eliminated them. Most operators (Cedar Fair, Universal, Sea World/Busch, Six Flags, and Herschend) have started new or expanded existing paid versions. I can only think of two operators that don't do it at all: Merlin (mostly European parks, but owns the Legoland brand in the US) and Parques Reunidos (several smaller US parks, including the Kennywood/Idlewild group and Lake Compounce.)

 

[Scuttle]

I don't see how late FP's affect the system at all.

The ride has the same capacity regardless of whether you return "on time" or "late".

Late FP's effect the stand by queue greatly though. Especially a ride like PP's flight. When, say 30 people come with late fastpasses at once the stand by queue stops completely. To me, this is the only problem I see with late FP's.

 

[Reddog]

Late FP's effect the stand by queue greatly though. Especially a ride like PP's flight. When, say 30 people come with late fastpasses at once the stand by queue stops completely. To me, this is the only problem I see with late FP's.

But how is that different than those same 30 people coming with on time fastpasses?

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don't see how late FP's affect the system at all.

The ride has the same capacity regardless of whether you return "on time" or "late".

Late FP's effect the stand by queue greatly though. Especially a ride like PP's flight. When, say 30 people come with late fastpasses at once the stand by queue stops completely. To me, this is the only problem I see with late FP's.

But how is that different than those same 30 people coming with on time fastpasses?

From an operational standpoint, the Fastpass system would work perfectly if people returned as precisely as possible. In an unrealistic perfect world, the system would be flawless if people could reserve a specific dispatch interval of an attraction. For omnimovers this would literally give you a 2 second window to return.

However, we live in reality - this is not conceivable, and in actuality it has been proven that even a more realistic window like a show time window (15 minutes or so) is also unrealistic. It's why we don't see Fastpasses for shows used beyond seasonal implementation.

The reason why it's a problem that you're returning after your hour window is because it creates peaks and valleys in the length of the standby line and fastpass line. In many cases this isn't a problem because the late arrivals are somewhat inconsequential.

I have never been corrected on these numbers (at least the percentage of fastpasses distributed numbers), but if they are incorrect I apologize. It's somewhat irrelevant as I'm using them to explain the point.

• An attraction like Toy Story Mania has a set hourly capacity. I know it's been as high as 1200-1300, but for now I'll say it's 1000 per hour.
• Fastpasses are distributed starting at 9:00 AM for the 9:40-10:40 AM window at a rate of 6% of the ride's hourly capacity every 5 minutes. For Toy Story Mania with the above #s, this would be 60 Fastpasses every 5 minutes.
• Starting at 9:40, there is the possibility that 60 people can enter the fastpass line. If all 60 people entered at 9:40, they could not all enter the attraction in that 5 minute period as well as accommodate standby passengers.
• Between 9:40 AM - 10:40 AM there are twelve 5 minute intervals in which Fastpasses can be distributed where a portion of that interval falls in the 9:40-10:40 window. This means that in that hour, 720 people that enter that attraction could conceivably do so using Fastpass.
• The above scenario doesn't happen, it's just another hypothetical situation, but the later you get in the day, the likelier it is that closer to 72% of the guests enterting the attraction will do so using Fastpass.
• If guests are allowed to return outside of the window - that number can exceed 72%. Normally it's inconsequential if your family of 4 returns outside of the window, but if 100 family's of 4 return outside the window, that's 400 people and that can skew the wait time.
• To get 400 people through the attraction takes 24 minutes under the 1000guests per hour window.

 

[PirateFrank]

I don't see how late FP's affect the system at all.

The ride has the same capacity regardless of whether you return "on time" or "late".

Capacity is a constant. It's not what gets affected here. I really wish people would stop using capacity for an argument on this issue, when it's not and can never be a product (product being the result of an equation). The product here is wait times. Always has, always will be. Thats what gets affected....and one of the variables that affects wait times is late returns.

Conceptually, the goal of FastPass is wait normalization. The intention is to redistribute a percentage of riders at other times of the day, evenly distributed. That's why there's a certain number of fastpass's distributed for each return window and once they are distributed, they sell out for that block.

By allowing late returns, you are not evenly distributing riders resulting in the normalization of wait times....instead, you are unevenly distributing wait times (weighted more heavily as the day progresses) which progressively increases weight times (i.e. not normalized) over the course of the day.

Regardless, capacity is not part of the argument. A fast pass system can be put on any ride of any capacity (within a relevant range) and the capacity isn't what changes. wait times are what gets affected.....

 

[Reddog]

From an operational standpoint, the Fastpass system would work perfectly if people returned as precisely as possible. In an unrealistic perfect world, the system would be flawless if people could reserve a specific dispatch interval of an attraction. For omnimovers this would literally give you a 2 second window to return.

However, we live in reality - this is not conceivable, and in actuality it has been proven that even a more realistic window like a show time window (15 minutes or so) is also unrealistic. It's why we don't see Fastpasses for shows used beyond seasonal implementation.

The reason why it's a problem that you're returning after your hour window is because it creates peaks and valleys in the length of the standby line and fastpass line. In many cases this isn't a problem because the late arrivals are somewhat inconsequential.

I have never been corrected on these numbers (at least the percentage of fastpasses distributed numbers), but if they are incorrect I apologize. It's somewhat irrelevant as I'm using them to explain the point.

• An attraction like Toy Story Mania has a set hourly capacity. I know it's been as high as 1200-1300, but for now I'll say it's 1000 per hour.
• Fastpasses are distributed starting at 9:00 AM for the 9:40-10:40 AM window at a rate of 6% of the ride's hourly capacity every 5 minutes. For Toy Story Mania with the above #s, this would be 60 Fastpasses every 5 minutes.
• Starting at 9:40, there is the possibility that 60 people can enter the fastpass line. If all 60 people entered at 9:40, they could not all enter the attraction in that 5 minute period as well as accommodate standby passengers.
• Between 9:40 AM - 10:40 AM there are twelve 5 minute intervals in which Fastpasses can be distributed where a portion of that interval falls in the 9:40-10:40 window. This means that in that hour, 720 people that enter that attraction could conceivably do so using Fastpass.
• The above scenario doesn't happen, it's just another hypothetical situation, but the later you get in the day, the likelier it is that closer to 72% of the guests enterting the attraction will do so using Fastpass.
• If guests are allowed to return outside of the window - that number can exceed 72%. Normally it's inconsequential if your family of 4 returns outside of the window, but if 100 family's of 4 return outside the window, that's 400 people and that can skew the wait time.
• To get 400 people through the attraction takes 24 minutes under the 1000guests per hour window.

I understand what you are saying. If a bunch of people get in the FP line at the same time (the likelihood of which is increased each time someone decides to return late) then it increases the wait time for those standing in the Standby line.

But as you said, there are peaks and valleys. So when those FP holders don't return on time, they are just delaying their effect on the line. So if my FP return time is 2-3 and I return at 5, everyone that rode standby between 2-5 rode slightly earlier. Everyone that was in line at 5 and throughout the rest of the day will ride at the same time they would have no matter what time I returned.

 

[Reddog]

Capacity is a constant. It's not what gets affected here. I really wish people would stop using capacity for an argument on this issue, when it's not and can never be a product (product being the result of an equation). The product here is wait times. Always has, always will be. Thats what gets affected....and one of the variables that affects wait times is late returns.

Conceptually, the goal of FastPass is wait normalization. The intention is to redistribute a percentage of riders at other times of the day, evenly distributed. That's why there's a certain number of fastpass's distributed for each return window and once they are distributed, they sell out for that block.

By allowing late returns, you are not evenly distributing riders resulting in the normalization of wait times....instead, you are unevenly distributing wait times (weighted more heavily as the day progresses) which progressively increases weight times (i.e. not normalized) over the course of the day.

Regardless, capacity is not part of the argument. A fast pass system can be put on any ride of any capacity (within a relevant range) and the capacity isn't what changes. wait times are what gets affected.....

Thank you. That is the first argument I've heard that makes complete sense to me.

The FP line will ALWAYS have an effect on the Standby line. The goal is to keep the effect constant. Correct?

 

[PirateFrank]

Thank you. That is the first argument I've heard that makes complete sense to me.

The FP line will ALWAYS have an effect on the Standby line. The goal is to keep the effect constant. Correct?

I'm not sure what Disney's goals are with FastPass. I will admit freely that I am making a big, huge- assumption as to Disney's objectives, based on the general benefits of a rider normalization system like fast pass.

For all we know, Disney wanted to offer guests some conveniences, like being able to jump a queue or two (without causing a riot)...and fast pass was a way to do so, with a predictable impact on wait times.

OR

They wanted to normalize wait times on attractions with significant peaks and values in wait times, so that they better staff the attractions with appropriate number of cast members

One goal gives Disney a product that they can offer (soon, sell) to customers/guests. The other is to provide an operational benefit. Plus, the two goals are not mutually exclusive...so this may be a little of both. I'm just not sure which one was/is more important to TDO.

Plus, there may be goals/objectives that I/we are unaware of.


But in short, yes...you're likely correct. Some type of normalization was most certainly an objective for Disney....and yes, fast pass will always affect wait times on the standby (and overall) lines....

 

[Reddog]

Now I'm wondering if they have historical data on ride wait times that they use to determine how many FP's are given out during a certain return window.

Perhaps giving out more FP's when people traditionally have lunch or during parade times, etc.