FastPass+ Most Certainly Not Coming Back As It Was

[LittleBuford]

I'm not sure I follow this thought process? You show up to the park and feel like riding Space Mountain spur of the moment. Instead of waiting in line you have the option of paying extra to get it faster (as long as the $ pass is available.) This is why I said it comes down to the implementation. If this wasn't oversold, and capacity was available for immediate payment/ride soon, It would increase spontaneity. There are ways to use this system to make the day almost completely spontaneous, outside of dining plans, as long as you're willing to pay.

I'd agree with you if this was oversold and they said to come back in 4 hours for your paid pass. If that's the case, then it is the worst of both worlds.

Assuming it's anything like what they've announced for DLP (and granted, it may not be), your money would get you an assigned time slot rather than immediate access.

 

[Dan Deesnee]

Maybe they'll back off like they did with noodle-gate.

 

[EeyoreFan#24]

I don’t know if USO and IA are still this way, but we took a wait and see approach on express passes about 2 years ago. When we got in the first day there was a very distinctive pattern with these parks no/minimal lines open till lunch, packed about 11-4/5 and then no lines till close. Then in continued. It was odd how predictable it was - and this was in June over 5 days including a weekend. We just figured out the rhythm of the park and then went to the pool and lunch and still rode all the rides we wanted too. It was strange, almost too strange.

 

[flynnibus]

The spontaneity argument really puzzles me. The new system, however it's implemented, would also entail making plans, except on the day itself rather than ahead of time. True spontaneity means doing whatever takes your fancy, free of external factors or pressures, but that isn't what's being discussed at all. Quite the opposite.

The system as outlined ISN'T making plans... There is no FP. There is no book out in advance unless you are buying line-skips. You have maybe one standby-queue at a time.. that you didn't plan ahead. The rest is getting in line, or buying line-skips adhoc.

 

[G00fyDad]

I'm praying they hold off until 2022.

I'm praying they hold off until 2023.

 

[Willmark]

so.... virtual queues for every ride

this is gonna go down swimmingly

Done differently I can see this, some say that’s what FP already was.

point being: Disney doesn’t want people standing in line when they can be buying very overpriced merchandise and overpriced meals.

The customers want more rides, Disney in their actions over the last two decades has proven they do not want to add more. And only recently have being adding more but certainly not enough to match attendance.

So what they are doing or seem to be is to allow for virtual line waiting on much bigger scale but not appreciably increasing rise capacity. Thereby, once again trying to force the customer to what Disney wants not what the customer wants.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Express costs more than a one day ticket if you buy it day of. But if you bought it in advance the way you used to have to book FP 60+ days in advance express is far less. Express passes get more and more expensive the closer you get to the date you want it, it's at its most insane day of (if it hasn't sold out) but you CAN get it for less. If you plan, that is.

By doing this though, you run the risk of buying it for a day you don't need it. Though if it's a weekend or around any holiday, it's safe to assume you need it, I suppose.

Express pass is free to deluxe resort guests. What you are describing is why Disney can’t offer deluxe and moderate guests free front of the line access.

Yeah, this too. I wish they would end this. It devalues the already expensive Express pass and grinds the standby lines. Also throw in the premiere AP "after 4" express pass. Without these, Express likely wouldn't be an operational issue at all.

 

[flynnibus]

Express costs more than a one day ticket if you buy it day of. But if you bought it in advance the way you used to have to book FP 60+ days in advance express is far less. Express passes get more and more expensive the closer you get to the date you want it, it's at its most insane day of (if it hasn't sold out) but you CAN get it for less. If you plan, that is.

No, it's priced based on expected crowds from the get go... and just gets more and more expensive closer to day of. It's never really cheap to start with. So the comparison to FP 60day window is pretty pointless. Express pass is expensive at 60days out too.. just not AS expensive day of.

 

[Brian]

Revenue Manager: We charge for admission right now. How about we just charge per ride?

Executive:

 

[flynnibus]

With virtual queues, they will occupy 2 lines at the same time (i.e. one virtual and one physical queue). Wait times will increase everywhere, which is what Disney wants, so Disney can charge even more for Premier Access, whose cost is based on wait time.

Wait.. how many people argued that FP didn't increase lines... now you say they do? How is anyone to know what to believe???

 

[ctrlaltdel]

I’m actually going to Universal for the first time in my next trip and planning to stay in a premier hotel because of the Express Pass. Feels like an insane value compared to Disney, especially for ~$300/nightC though their hotels are a lot more appropriately priced than Disney.

 

[mhaftman7]

I won’t make any threats of never going, but I definitely don’t plan on going until all of this gets sorted out. Confusing times are upon us.

 

[RobbinsDad]

Yes, and those attractions without virtual queues will see (much?) longer Standby lines.

Guests are not going to sit around waiting for their return time. They're going to look at the My Disney Experience app, find an attraction that is not using a virtual queue, and get in line for that.

The beauty of the current COVID "Standby line only" system is that a Guest can only occupy one line at a time. With virtual queues, they will occupy 2 lines at the same time (i.e. one virtual and one physical queue). Wait times will increase everywhere, which is what Disney wants, so Disney can charge even more for Premier Access, whose cost is based on wait time.

Effectively, Disney will create demand where none exists, which will allow Disney to charge more for Premier Pass.

Brilliant synopsis. Like I said, I think this will be popular, not because its needed but because it will play to the basest trait of many - impatience. Especially if the virtual queue system is combined with a suggested itinerary system, a la Genie.

 

[Disstevefan1]

The difference is very few relatively pay for that…

if they adopted the same in wdw…two things would happen:
1. More people would pay
2. Lines would be longer for those that didn’t

That’s a daily disaster on the ground

I am on the "Too many Fastpasses cause longer waits for everyone" team, so I think if there are less Fastpasses, there would be lower standby wait times overall.

Whatever we end up with will provide maximum shareholder value, not an improved guest experience.

Just my opinion, I am not a Fastpass scientist.

Perhaps we need to gather all the FastPass scientific experts of the world so we can get the scientific consensus so the science can be settled on the FastPass VS Overall Wait time issue.

 

[Ahsoka102]

I’m actually going to Universal for the first time in my next trip and planning to stay in a premier hotel because of the Express Pass. Feels like an insane value compared to Disney, especially for ~$300/nightC though their hotels are a lot more appropriately priced than Disney.

I agree! Its an amazing value! Especially, if you have a family of 4 or more. Paying an extra $90-$300+ per person per day to buy Unlimited Express Passes for my family is crazy. But paying around $400 a night to stay at Portifino Bay and get complimentary Unlimited Express Passes is an easy decision for me.

 

[jpinkc]

I’m actually going to Universal for the first time in my next trip and planning to stay in a premier hotel because of the Express Pass. Feels like an insane value compared to Disney, especially for ~$300/nightC though their hotels are a lot more appropriately priced than Disney.

I thought so myself we stayed at Hard Rock, for a week. Nice Hotel not to a GF or Poly theming level, First 2 days at UO/IA were fun Volcano Bay we did an all day. Kids were bored, we were there for the 2nd week of Hagrids and yes I waited in line for 8 hours with wife and kids spelling me to hold our line placement. We kept being told like many others in line that you cant do that (leave line and have someone else stand in your place) and we just ignored the cast members like the rest of the people in line. Ride was good but not that good. Kids admitted afterward that we should have done Disney and come to UO/IA for a single day, as we had done several years ago. Food so-so at Hard Rock and in the park, best place we found was Three Broomsticks or Mythos. Went to eat the rest of the trip at nite to Disney Springs LOL.

 

[aaronml]

I guess I'm in the minority there as I almost always pay for fastpass at every park I go to. So in essence I am paying for a ride twice.

Are the other parks you go to as expensive as WDW?

 

[havoc315]

It’s an inaccurate analogy.

Using your analogy, you previously paid $110 for an all-you-can-eat buffet that included lobster, steak, caviar, etc.

Now the restaurant wants to change it so you pay $110 for a table, and then you still have to pay more for any food.

Or you can not pay more and get everyone else’s leftovers.

No..... the restaurant previously charged $110 for all you can eat salad and pasta..
Now, they want to add steak, lobster and caviar to the menu.
Now they charge $110 for the table -- They took away the all-you-can-eat pasta... but you can still get the salad included, and you now also have the option of adding on steak, lobster, pasta, etc...

DPA does give you something you didn't get before: Ability to get easily get same-day Front-of-line... no 60 days in advance at 6am, no constant refreshing with fingers crossed. It also now lets you get more than 1 Tier-1 "front of line" experience. Likely more than 3. And it lets you pick and choose which ones among those that you really want. You don't have to add BATB just because you need to have a 3rd FP before you can get a 4th. You're also getting, for the "included rate," the ability to spend part of your standby time without actually being in the line.

So, a little is getting taken a way but tons of stuff is being added. With some ala carte pricing as part of what's being added.

 

[CuteAsMinnie]

welcome to the class system.

IF youre rich, you can do whatever you want.

If you arent you will not be able to ride certain rides.

I think next years trip might be my last... and im stunned writing that.

And to think Disney is working hard to promote their “inclusiveness.”
My axx

 

[MrPromey]

That's kind of the point: if COP is only loading half their capacity, there isn't really a capacity problem is there? There is enough capacity in the park for people to get their overall ride counts up, but if they don't WANT to ride something, that capacity gets wasted.

That's why adding attractions is almost a zero-sum game. You add new attractions, people want to ride those, and whatever attraction is at the bottom of the demand list gets bumped out and closed. Now your overall park capacity is equal, or even sometimes less than it was when you started.

Worse yet, adding attractions tends to increase overall park attendance so now you have more people in the park, who all want to ride the same ten rides, and not enough capacity for them.




Disneyland is still miserably overcrowded, even with more attraction capacity. They had to go thru and tear out trees and benches and planters because they were so worried about how crowded it was.

But you could still walk into the Lincoln Theater on a hot summer afternoon and take a nap.





If enough people stopped going they wouldn't need Fastpass at all. But if they stopped needing Fastpass though, all those people would want to come back. Then they would need Fastpass again.

So much to unpack here.

You consider Disneyland Park miserably overcrowded?

You realize it comes in as #2 for annual attendance behind the MK but has way more attractions, right?

Also, you talk about what happens to anything that's not the top 10 rides - quick, can you tell me how many Disney parks in Florida even have 10 rides?

Both Disneyland parks have higher attraction capacity and fewer people visiting than we do.

So what's your point?

That they had a problem with locals abusing their APs which has never been an issue in Florida and that there is less space to walk around since it occupies a smaller footprint? That they don't manage their crowds well in DL?

My point with bringing DL up is that people talk about the MK being overbuilt compared to the other three and it's not overbuilt at all - it's under-built for the crowds they push in and the other three are WAY under-built.

No amount of guest management/manipulation is going to correct for that.

You know what other problem we have in Florida that guests in California don't have? Disney continuing full steam ahead for more than a decade building rooms that are entirely dependent on those theme parks... adding resorts and vacation clubs and then marketing like crazy to make sure they fill them tends to drive numbers up more than a new attraction, I'd imagine.

As for the COP, it was once a seasonally operational attraction. This was after the last previous on-ride update. The only reason it's open all year now is because management wanted more places to cram people without building anything new. That's not exactly a secret and the only point is proves is that people can't be coerced to do something they don't want to do, just because there's nothing else to do.

Adding new attractions didn't make COP less popular, time and a lack of updates to make it appeal to modern audiences did.*

Anyway, the opening of TRON is not going to suddenly make any of the mountains a walk-on. It'll barely move the needle.

It won't change the wait time for Peter Pan's flight.

If we're lucky, the wait for Small World may go down but probably not since it doesn't serve a big percentage of the audience for that ride.

Just a reminder, Disney ran a Superbowl commercial to promote the opening of Toy Story Land and it's two c/d ticket rides like it was a whole new big amazing experience.

Adding attractions doesn't drive attendance out of control - Disney's marketing machine does and I expect they will do what they always do with the eventual opeing of TRON.

Programs to help manage crowds are not intrinsically bad but a decade of over-reliance on them has created a problem and continuing to look to them as the primary solution to capacity problems is bad if you're a paying guest.


*I like it for nostalgia but even I can acknowledge they should be embarrassed to be running this one in it's current state. Great Moments in DL is still around for historical reasons - not because anyone expects it will ever be a headliner again and remarkably, the company still seems to care about preserving the history of some aspects of DL. In contrast, the late Marty Sylar pretty much said more than a decade ago that when Disney needs the land COP sits on for something, it's a goner... which I'm sure is the same fate CBJ faces though I can imagine the Tiki Room hanging in longer.