FastPass is the dumbest thing Disney ever did.

[David S.]

It can't be. You're at the Speedway in the queue ... see those people in front of you in line? Many of them are holding Fast Passes and wouldn't be standing there if there was no Fast Pass system (they'd be in the Space Mountain line). Now turn around. You see those people? Those people are now waiting longer because you wouldn't be in line without a Fast Pass system (you'd be in the Space Mountain Line).

As I said in the previous post, assuming constants (that the amount of time a person spends shopping and eating and watching parades will remain the same regardless of Fast Pass) the Fast Pass system cannot reduce a particular person's time spent in line in the aggregate (unless they only visit no-line attractions or Fast Pass attractions utilizing a fast pass).

When I saw you had added to your previous post, I added some additional comments to my most recent one above that addesses this.

Yes, I "see the people" in line for the Speedway. (I get the concept, no need to talk down like that

I DO get the concept that the line for Speedway et al will be longer because of FP. However, my contention is that the total amount of time "lost" on these rides because of FP is less than the amount saved on the FP rides because of using FP. This is what you are not addressing. I mean, even before FP was implimented, I remember usually waiting about 30 minutes for Speedway and Orbiter in the afternoon. Sometimes it's about that now; sometimes a little more. But if you add up 5 or 10 minutes for each of the few non FP queues per day that I have to wait in, that total of time is still WAY less than the amount of time I save by using FP.

I think your theoretical mathmatical formulas that FP gains NO TIME for those who use it could only be true if EVERY park guest used the system and used it to the fullest. But, we know this isn't true! Please don't forget about the additions to my above post which further illustrate what I am trying to say, including an Epcot example.

I agree that we should agree to disagree, but I think the reason I keep responding back is I have the experience and know for a FACT that I get on more attractions because of FP (and the journals to prove it!) and it seems like you are stating as factual that my experiences of getting more rides with FP are impossible. When I know for a FACT that it saves me time! I was THERE, I lived the dream!

PS. I really don't mean this in a "bragging" way, but I am a theme park junkie with experience in 53 different parks. It's not just a hobby, but a PASSION. And I caught the bug at an early age (3!) with my first Disney park a few years later. So I've been at this game for a long time! Believe me when I say I find and learn all the "tricks" of maximizing time in the parks. They are as second nature to be as BREATHING! All the obvious strategies to use at ANY park, such as, if I have 30 minutes left, and multiple things I could do, most of which are walk-ons but one is a coaster with an hour wait, for heaven's sake, I don't go get on the coaster NOW! One has 30 minutes to get walk-ons on short-cycle rides such as spinner rides with short 2 minute cycles! (or in the MK's case, the FL dark rides). THEN get in line for the coaster a few minutes before they close the queue, and you are waiting on the park's time when nothing else is open but the queue you are in, and this way you are not waiting on YOUR time when you could be riding rides.

Or, if I am going to commit to doing a full day, don't be 15-30 minutes late! Those 30 minutes can literally translate to HOURS because you lose the ability to "surf a wave of walk-ons" that magical first hour, one step ahead of the crowds!

For instance, if I'm at MK on time, I can be on the first cycle of Dumbo and walk right on to EVERYTHING in Fantasyland, usually completing the 8 attractions in 90 minutes or less. If I'm 30 minutes late, Dumbo may already have a 30 minute wait, which already means I've lost an hour. And by then, the line for everything I do will be longer than it would have been if I got off of Dumbo at 9:05 AM instead of 10:05 AM, and this snowballs until you are literally a few hours behind where you would have been had you been on time and gotten there 30 minutes earlier! If I'm going to be late, I prefer to be late in style, by sleeping late and making a half-day of it, with no pretentions of having a thorough full-day visit!

So, the ability to figure out how to add time to my day by using FP is just the latest in a long line of strategies adopted by hardcore parkies like me to get more done, and have more fun! And BELIEVE me, FP makes a HUGE difference!

 

[Krack]

I agree that we should agree to disagree, but I think the reason I keep responding back is I have the experience and know for a FACT that I get on more attractions because of FP (and the journals to prove it!) and it seems like you are stating as factual that my experiences of getting more rides with FP are impossible. When I know for a FACT that it saves me time! I was THERE, I lived the dream!

Not impossible, just explained by other factors including, but not limited to ... crowd sizes, number of attractions in the park, number of closed attractions in the park, hours of park operation, weather, number of cars running on a particular attraction, number of parades, number of shows, etc. Mine is a correlation does not equal causation argument.

It cannot be explained by Fast Pass unless you can explain where the people holding Fast Passes are going other than into another line somewhere else in the park.

-------

Here's a theoretical experiment you can try when you're bored and you want to kill an hour. Imagine a Magic Kingdom park with one ride (Space Mountain) and one guest. Now estimate the ride time and estimate how many times that person could ride that attraction in one day. Now add the Fast Pass system to your hypothetical park. The # of rides (attractions visited in the day) will remain unchanged obviously.

Now run the experiment again with two guests. Then three. Then 100. Then 1000. You will find the # of rides will remain the same in each instance Fast Pass vs. No Fast Pass.

Now go back to the original park and add a second ride (Speedway). Estimate the ride times and estimate how many times that person could visit those attractions in one day (rotating between the two rides). Now add the Fast Pass system. Again, the # of rides will remain unchanged. Start adding guests - # of rides still unchanged.

Now add a third attraction (Orbitor), then a fourth (Stich), then another Fast Pass attraction (Buzz). The # of rides will always remain the same in each instance Fast Pass vs. No Fast Pass. It must; unless you magically teleport the people holding Fast Passes out of the park until it is time to use them. And as you have already demonstrated in your anecdotes, they don't disappear - they go into another (now longer) line somewhere else.

 

[Monty]

Krack, assuming constants is the major flaw in your logic. If the logic held true, if every person who got an FP for a ride didn't have access to FPs, they would simply be in front of you in line and your wait would be exactly the same for the ride [X people load on the ride per hour and that doesn't change just because of FPs], but in fact many wouldn't join the standby line if they saw it was over a particular wait time, so your line would be slightly shorter [it would physically move faster, giving the unrealistic perception that it's better]. The difficulty is there is no way to prove or disprove any of the conjecture in this thread, it can only work if you had two identical parks with identical numbers and types of people, one with FPs and one without.

Attendance has increased, so that factors into longer standby waits that are being blamed on FPs.

Simply put, there is no way to categorically state that FPs are better or worse than not having FPs. All the logical arguments have far too many variables in play to be valid from a statistical modelling standpoint. Anecdotal arguments, while valid to the individual providing them, are just stories in the context they're presented, again not valid in general terms.

I happen to like FPs and in my opinion they vastly improve my park experience.

 

[Grizzly Hall 71]

Fastpass = The Best Thing Ever

My opinion.

 

[Krack]

Krack, assuming constants is the major flaw in your logic. If the logic held true, if every person who got an FP for a ride didn't have access to FPs, they would simply be in front of you in line and your wait would be exactly the same for the ride [X people load on the ride per hour and that doesn't change just because of FPs], but in fact many wouldn't join the standby line if they saw it was over a particular wait time, so your line would be slightly shorter [it would physically move faster, giving the unrealistic perception that it's better]. experience.

These people have to go somewhere. If they are not getting in the standby line for Attraction A, then they are going somewhere else (Attraction B) and getting in line. And now the guy who got in line behind him in Attraction B is now experiencing a longer line than he would have if there was no Fast Pass system.

 

[CAPTAIN HOOK]

These people have to go somewhere. If they are not getting in the standby line for Attraction A, then they are going somewhere else (Attraction B) and getting in line.

Not necessarily - you're assuming that they are hell bent on doing a ride. If the lines are too long many people will either - go shop, go eat or, leave the park.

 

[David S.]

These people have to go somewhere. If they are not getting in the standby line for Attraction A, then they are going somewhere else (Attraction B) and getting in line. And now the guy who got in line behind him in Attraction B is now experiencing a longer line than he would have if there was no Fast Pass system.

On that one attraction, yes. But if he's a Fastpass pro, he'll make that time up, and much much more, by utilizing the FP system to the fullest!

I will concede one thing that your example just made me think of: Fastpass will not work as good for people doing partial day visits as it will for full day visits. (especially for those who get there after FPs are gone) In the case in your above example, if Attraction B is the ONLY ride your affected guest wants to ride, (such as in a really short park-hop visit) and if that line really is longer because others in line are holding FPs for other attractions, than he waited a longer total for his one ride.

My contention is that if you do a full day and use FP for every attraction that has FP, you can save time in the long run - because this has always been the case in my experiences!

 

[jakeman]

I was going to respond and then I realized it doesn't matter.

Disliking Fastpass is one of the more illogical opinions out there.

 

[Krack]

Not necessarily - you're assuming that they are hell bent on doing a ride. If the lines are too long many people will either - go shop, go eat or, leave the park.

Well, that is what I meant by "assuming constants". Everything I suggested is contingent upon the idea/theory/notion that the amount of time a person spends browsing stores and eating will remain somewhat constant (it will never be exact) regardless of other park factors. In other words, if a person spends typically an hour and a half eating during a day at the parks, he's not going to eat more because he has a Fast Pass. He may change when (during the day) he will spend that hour and a half to accommodate a Fast Pass he is holding, but he's not going to substantially add or decrease this amount of time.

Similarly, a person will typically have a pretty standard amount of time he/she will spend in stores during a typically park day (dictated by attention span and shopping interest). The same is true of activities like watching parades, fireworks, and simply sitting on a park bench with an ice cream.

I fully admit this is conjecture on my part. But my experience is that people do not eat more because the Fast Pass system exists, nor do they shop more (over the course of a day), or sit around doing nothing more. They'll alter when they do these activities because of FP, but not do significantly more or less of it as a result of FP. And unless people are doing significantly more or less of it as a result of FP (over the course of a park visit), then the time spent in lines dictates how many additional attractions a person can visit as a result of FP.

 

[bladerunner]

Me and my family are very used to using FP. We plan all our trips around how best to use FP. I have said it before - if were not for FP I would not go to WDW as frequently as I do. I think that if WDW were to try a new Coke experiment with FP it would make for a lot of unhappy guests.

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

I was going to respond and then I realized it doesn't matter.

Disliking Fastpass is one of the more illogical opinions out there.

I couldn't agree more. I did Space Mountain as a walk-on! We did Splash Mountain with 5 minutes waiting time, just about 2 hours after we did BTMR with 5 minutes. I did EE in DAK without any waiting time, the same with Kali River Rapids and Kilimanjaro Safaris. We walked right on to Soarin, I waited 5 minutes for Mission Space. And the same with ToT and Star Tours in DHS. While we were waiting for our FP-time to arrive we ate or walked through shops or did other rides which also had no too long waiting time (always less than 20 minutes). All these activities were done in a time that we would have lost for waiting in line normally. I know that standbyers are waiting much longer? So what? It's their own decision, no one forces them to take the standbye queue and FP is available for every guest. If FP are run out for this attraction for the day and they only can take standbye they should have been faster. Again, their fault.

 

[paul436]

I completely disagree. Smart FP management removes most of the waiting for rides. I remember going to WDW as a kid before FP and waiting on excruciatingly long lines. And I had no option but to wait if I wanted to ride. Now I have options.

Not allowing multiple FPs at the same time helps to keep the FP lines moving as not everybody has a FP for the same time.

Handling upset guests is the not-so-fun part of working in the service industry. But handled correctly, it can be manageable 99% of the time (there's always some that you won't be able to please). But the upside is that the same CM is going to interact with some great folks having a great time at WDW.

 

[castevens]

I sincerely apologize to those guests that have came all the way from across the park to try to get into BTM or whereever early

i don't.

 

[WDWmazprty]

Sorry, FP is great for me. Its never turned out bad for us. It's nice when you can get on a ride in under 10 min. for example, and see that the standby line is 45.

 

[lebeau]

Another FP thread.

I've been through enough of these to know how they work. Most everyone will post about how FP is awesome because it is good for them. They will completely ignore the impact it has on the majority of guests in the park.

Eventually, someone will point out the FP doesn't create capacity. It just redistributes it creating a group of "haves" (those who benefit from FP which happens to be just about everyone who reads these forums) and a group of "have nots" (those who are waiting in longer lines because they don't know how to effectively use FP or don't use it at all).

The reaction to this will generally be one of the following "I don't care. I like FP." or "I have no sympathy for those too stupid to figure out how to use FP."

This will continue for pages until a new FP thread starts.

For the record, I dislike FP. But I've said that often enough not to fight about it any more.

 

[Susan Savia]

Fast pass works good for those rides that we otherwise would be waiting long periods of time to ride on. It's the only way we are able to get two rides on Toy Story inside of about 45 minutes. (one using regular line first thing and 2nd using our fast pass a little while later).

 

[Disney05]

We rarely use Fastpass. But when we do, it works out fine for us. :shrug:

 

[Future Guy]

I totally understand why FP is such a headache for the CMs. When people are on vacation, their brains go into Bozo Mode. It causes them to do things like inquire if the PeopleMover goes to Universal Studios and then complain when they find out it doesn't. For some vacationers in Bozo Mode, FastPass might as well be quantum physics. Although it can be fantastically convenient if you know how to use it, for the majority of WDW visitors it adds the one thing their vacation-addled brains just can't handle: another layer of complexity.

Also, I'm sure the CMs at the Studios don't enjoy the mad rush to TSMM after the rope drop. Without FP, I really believe that people would disperse into the park in a more natural manner.

Finally, consider that before FP, the average person's route through the MK might look something like this:

. . . but now, with FP, it probably looks more like this:

 

[castevens]

I can understand the argument that no one is going on more rides than they were before fastpass in theory: If you have the same number of people in the parks, and the same number of rides, the people will ride the same number of rides in one day.

This is true, the AVERAGE number of rides/day/person will remain the same. But it's at the expense of the people who are NOT gaming the system.

For example: let's say that before FP a person averaged 10 rides/day (to keep the number even). Now FP starts in the parks, and person A gets a FP for a bunch of rides, and waits in lines while waiting for his FPs to kick in. Person B does not use FP and waits in lines at are now longer because of the FP. Person A will go on 12 rides, person B will go on 8 rides, the average is still 10 rides/person/day, but the person using the FP system to their advantage has gone on more rides

I cannot even begin to explain how many people didn't understand that you could have 2 FPs at one time, you just need to wait for the time quoted on the bottom of the previous FP. Also, I am generally handed at least 2 "free" FPs by people exiting the part on a typical vacation.

Anywho, I like it.

 

[PirateFrank]

I disagree. I'm sorry if it makes things harder for you as a CM, but as a guest it makes it SO much easier to do all the attractions I want to do!

Although you're entitled to disagree, you're wrong and the OP is 100% correct.

Last thursday, we arrived in WDW for a 2 day stint....and we decided to get TSM in before it closed down and we got to HS at around 6 pm. We went straight to TSM....FPs were all distributed for the day...and the ride was temporarilly closed down for an unspecified technical glitch.

My son and I went to ToT and my wife and daughter waited for it to open. When it opened, the wait time was quoted at TWO HOURS. My daughter didn't care, despite my wife explaining to our daughter that the wait would be longer than our actual flight down. She didn't care.

They got in the queue, which is, as you know, slower than cold maple syrup. After more than an hour of waiting, my wife and daughter arrived at the FP merge...and were held up by a cast member so she could allow FP holders to merge for over 35 MINUTES!!!! (she clocked them) After a 35 minute wait for allowing FP holders to merge, my wife and daughter were finally allowed to merge. Thank god I wasn't online. I rarely get ed at CM's, but I would have exploded on this one.

Ultimately the wait took exactly 2 hours. During that time, my son and I sat through a 55 minute ToT wait (where there were PLENTY of pauses waiting for FP holders to get in line...and again, we arrived at the park too late to get a FP)....a 15 minute Star Tours line and a 60 minute R&RC line.


FP may in fact act as an even distributor of ride traffic.....however, I'll argue that without FP, people will evenly distribute themselves. Pirates doesn't have a FP...and it's a better queue for it.


Im convinced that the only reason FP exists is to drum up hysteria about attractions. "Woah....look at soarin....its a 95 minute wait, it MUST be good!" Soarin, now that I mention it, is the second-worst offender (behind TSM). You can watch literally an entire hour's-worth of guests stroll past you while you sit and languish on that queue.


If Disney abolished FP and at the same time, severely limited the fat-cycle rentals to those that really need them....you'd have far less congestion/capacity issues in all 4 parks.