Fastpass+, a solution to "overwhelmingly negative" responses from families

[luv]

I do not need any FP and don't really (personally) care how it all plays out. But I do think the idea of pre-arranging FPs is going to be a bigger headache than the old, "Use it any time after the window starts" policy. It will make vacations harder for people instead of easier. Lots of watch-checking to keep their FP appointments and food appointments.

Plus, rides break down. It rains. Breakfast takes longer than people expected (especially character meals.) Kids scrape their knees. People over-sleep - a lot. SO many people underestimate how much this vacation will suck out of them and end up sleeping late one day. All manner of things will prevent people from making their FP appointments.

It's going to cause some disappointment, I think.

 

[flynnibus]

I still would love to see Len do some serious data analysis of crowd behavior histories. Because I really think he's the only one doing it.

After using his application in DLR.. I'm believing his numbers are more based on educated guesses and loose data points rather than pure math extrapolation. Why? Because using the app I doubt the # of data points is that large. It's not optimized enough for lightweight data.. making its use difficult in intermittent/poor networks (things the parks are notorius for). The app is designed well enough to allow posting once you get to better signal (assuming you get out of the building and go outside) but is still too burdensome IMO. I'd be interested in seeing how many contributions users submit per day.. I'd wager its a lot lower than one would like to see. It shouldn't take but a few dozen bytes to post something.. but their system is far heavier than that. Maybe someday I'll trace it and look at the client/server exchanges.

A lot of the information can be extrapolated based on behaviors through the day.. and then just scale based on the expected crowd load for the day. Crowd loads are heavily influenced by 'events' and scheduling of them.. things you have to feed into the system. You watch certain calendars that you use as barometers of the larger 'universe' that you aren't watching... so again extrapolating.

I guess what I'm getting at is.. I think tp is more about looking forward based on a good understanding of the factors that influence waits.. more than it is about data harvesting all the historical 'actual' data of wait times and crowd movement.

 

[Dads 2 Boys]

What happens when more FP+s are given to Deluxe Resort guests? What happens when offsite or day-of guests are excluded from the system or handed table scraps? The existing FP system is a level playing field but FP+ will likely allow some much better access than others. Is that a system you'd still be happy with?

IF? If a bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't bump his on the ground. No one knows this is going to happen let alone "likely".

 

[litaljohn]

I think it's pretty clear I'm in teinority here but personally I love the idea of this new system. for me a big part of Disney is the lead up, the planning, the looking at what's new and what's refurbished and seeing all there is to do. I already had a blast looking into restaurants and getting set and looking forward to where I'm going on which days. this sort of ramps that excitement up too thinking about the rides now as well. ( I know I see people concened over certain people getting more passes or opportunities than others but don't we have that now already? I thought those who paid for personal guides pretty much got fast passes to whatever they wanted thanks to the guide cast member getting the passes for them, or so it seemed on one of those Netflix disneyworld videos they have)

I will say say though if the intent was to help new people from being overwhelmed than this is sort of counterproductive. those of us who know what to expect or what we have experienced have all that to fall back on while we plan where the newcomers are left guessing blindly. in a way it actually puts inexperienced people at an even bigger disadvantage than previously.

all that said waiting in a line isn't the end of the world. heck some people may even get the chance to actually talk to their friends and family and converse while waiting. ( of course one time I did actually watch two kids stand 6 inches apart and text each other conversations regardless....)

 

[ParentsOf4]

So its Len's fault? Lol

LOL

I have seen more than a few walking around with their touring plans.

Of course, now there's an App, maybe I'll simply see them walking around with their heads buried in their smart phones.

 

[RSoxNo1]

IMHO, the "right" solution is to simplify the WDW experience. For example:

• Completely eliminate FP/FP+
• Return to a simplified ticket structure based solely on days.
• Eliminate the "pay for" add-ons such as Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique.

Such changes will never happen. WDW has become the way it is because the corporate goal is to maximize revenue and profits, not to simplify its guests' vacations or reduce their stress. FP+ seems to add another layer of complexity.

Many working in corporate or government cultures recognize that complex procedures and processes tend to be "solved" with even more complex procedures and processes. Even CM knows that there now are rules for everything at WDW. Complexity tends to breed even more complexity.

I get the need to evolve. But evolve the FP distribution system, not the system itself. My Disney Experience can be used to reserve Fastpasses day of using the exact same distribution rules that are available today. That in itself alleviates the "scary" factor of having to separate from your family. More importantly, it saves time backtracking around the parks. The new proposal, limiting Fastpass usage to 3 per day is far too low for the Magic Kingdom, especially since they're throwing it on anything that moves.

 

[RSoxNo1]

What Len said is exactly why your statement didn't work. And tp is giving out the same plan to everyone today because its static. Disney can shape crowd movement with its system.

I don't get at all your statements about Len vs Disney. Until Len gives out customized plans that are interdependent in the other plans given for the same day... They are in different league

Have you used their optimized touring plans? They can be optimized with up to the minute information, and they are now building in an algorithm that factors in the increased usage. If 200 people are using it, and they all optimize simultaneously, it's not going to say Dumbo for every single one. Disney kind of does this already with enforced Fastpass distribution, and are attempting to do it with Fastpass+, only they're attempting to do it before the guests set foot in the park. My point is, that even with the ability to manipulate the system (Which Disney is currently doing), TouringPlans is producing a superior product.

 

[luv]

A woman who was ed off...no, she was livid...that RnRc had broken down and we were being given FPs instead of a ride NOW was yelling at the kid about the delay.

"You don't understand! I have a PLAN HERE!!" And I looked at the paper she was holding up, Statue of Liberty style, and shaking. Sure enough, a page torn from the UG.

Cracked me up.

But I don't blame Len Testa. Len is like my Disney hero. He's the God of Disney Planning. I sometimes (not a lot) listen to that podcast. He is extremely funny. Hope to one day get my UG signed.

Nobody should pick on Len.

 

[RSoxNo1]

So I guess the biggest question is will you be able to utilize fast pass + while still getting regular fast passes from the machine, or will you be limited to either one or the other?

The way it's reported now is that you can get 3 or 4 total Fastpasses per day. The biggest change here is that Disney will be tracking usage, so you'll be able to change your Fastpass if you miss your window. The problem with that is that marquee attractions will still run out of availability quicker, so the enforcement of the return time is going to get people.

There are advantages that they're building into the system that make sense from Disney's standpoint (controlling crowd distribution) but it's done at the inconvenience of the guests. By limiting the number of Fastpasses per day, and then counting actual usage Disney is changing the back end system entirely. The good thing is, the increase # of attractions may result in the number of Fastpass+ reservations increasing day of, much in the same way that park hours increase as you get closer to the date.

I suspect that on most days, DHS, DAK and Epcot will have that 3 or 4 Fastpass+ reservation limit. For the most part that's all that's needed. Conversely, the Magic Kingdom should have a much higher capacity, and I could see availability bumped up to 6 Fastpass+ reservations.

While I don't like this substantial change on the back end and front end, there are ways that it could work. The biggest issue I see though is how they'll handle park hopping. In theory they could restrict Fastpass+ distribution by groupings across all four parks. This would mean that guests might be able to get two "Group A" attractions per day, one in Park 1 and one in Park 2. I see it as an issue though if the number of Fastpasses available per day per park is different.

 

[cslafferty]

We go to WDW once a year, and so far I've been able to ride TSMM once. The year it opened we had just ended our vacation; the next year it had closed for a brief refurb the day we arrived; the next year we finally got to ride it; and last year we got to DHS about 20 min. after it opened and the line to get a FP was incredible- by the time we got close the return times were already into MVMCP which we already had tickets for. With FP+ I won't have to worry about not getting to ride my favs. I guess if I was able to visit more often I may agree with some who want to get rid of FP/FP+ altogether. I don't mind standing in a reasonable line. But when you are only there for a couple of days a year, I don't want to spend my whole Disney time standing in a line - especially when you have to go during peak times (I'm a teacher, so I have to go when everyone else is there). FP has allowed us to have a more leisurely vacation because we could do more instead of stressing out about all of the time we're waisting standing in a line.

 

[djlaosc]

With FP+ I won't have to worry about not getting to ride my favs.

As long as you manage to get a FP+ for your favourite - there will be more people wanting to ride an attraction than the number of FP+ available - so some people are not going to be able to get a FP+ for TSMM on the day that they want to go to DHS... same as now.

It seems that the only difference is that everyone will be waiting at their computers 60 days out to "race" to get a FP+ reservation, rather than 9am day of...

And if you can't get your TSMM FP+, then you better hope that you want to ride RnRC or want to see LMA, because you won't be able to use that "Fastpass Slot" to go ride TOT or Star Tours like you currently would. If you can't get TSMM, can't ride RnRC and can't/don't want to watch LMA, then you will be down to 2 FP+ reservations for that day...

And if you currently are able to Fastpass both Soarin' and Test Track in a single day (Test Track hasn't run out by the time you can get a Fastpass for it [2 hours after Soarin'], that's probably not going to be able to happen in the future (would assume they would be placed in the same group, possibly with Mission:SPACE)...

And if you want to be able to ride your favourites more than once, and currently Fastpass them more than once in a single day, you won't be able to do that anymore... Want to ride Test Track twice? You're going to have to queue for that second time around now...

And if you want to be able to get a FP+ for TSMM in the morning, but because there isn't enough for you to do at DHS for the whole day, you want to move to another park, you better hope you don't need to Fastpass anything at that second park, because you're not going to be able to get any...

 

[spaceghost]

After using his application in DLR.. I'm believing his numbers are more based on educated guesses and loose data points rather than pure math extrapolation. Why? Because using the app I doubt the # of data points is that large. It's not optimized enough for lightweight data.. making its use difficult in intermittent/poor networks (things the parks are notorius for). The app is designed well enough to allow posting once you get to better signal (assuming you get out of the building and go outside) but is still too burdensome IMO. I'd be interested in seeing how many contributions users submit per day.. I'd wager its a lot lower than one would like to see. It shouldn't take but a few dozen bytes to post something.. but their system is far heavier than that. Maybe someday I'll trace it and look at the client/server exchanges.

A lot of the information can be extrapolated based on behaviors through the day.. and then just scale based on the expected crowd load for the day. Crowd loads are heavily influenced by 'events' and scheduling of them.. things you have to feed into the system. You watch certain calendars that you use as barometers of the larger 'universe' that you aren't watching... so again extrapolating.

I guess what I'm getting at is.. I think tp is more about looking forward based on a good understanding of the factors that influence waits.. more than it is about data harvesting all the historical 'actual' data of wait times and crowd movement.

Much of their data isn't based on the user reports, but on paid staff whose job it is to go around and collect wait times, daily. Len has talked many times about collecting wait times himself (although he probably does less of that now). They have a paid statistician on staff. They were developing wait time algorithms and touring plans long before they had people submitting times via the app. I think there was a two part set of episodes of BetaMouse a few years back where he talks pretty openly about the touring plan software and algorithms. I'm sure things have been tweaked since then due to the app. Seems like I remember another podcast where Len talks about the optimized plans as well. Stuff seems pretty solid to me. I do think it is a mix of harvesting historical data and modeling based on expected crowd levels, which is why they also expend energy on the crowd calendar.

 

[cslafferty]

The way it's reported now is that you can get 3 or 4 total Fastpasses per day.

It actually says: "a guest will be able to choose up to a maximum of 3 FASTPASS+ experiences at one park per day." I initially took that to mean that I could get 3 at MK and then park hop to EPCOT and get 3 there, and so on. I didn't think that meant that I could only get a total of 3 per day, period. That would make a big difference.

 

[spaceghost]

Have you used their optimized touring plans? They can be optimized with up to the minute information, and they are now building in an algorithm that factors in the increased usage. If 200 people are using it, and they all optimize simultaneously, it's not going to say Dumbo for every single one. Disney kind of does this already with enforced Fastpass distribution, and are attempting to do it with Fastpass+, only they're attempting to do it before the guests set foot in the park. My point is, that even with the ability to manipulate the system (Which Disney is currently doing), TouringPlans is producing a superior product.

Agreed. I personally find the whole "science" behind what they do fascinating. WDW (and DLR to an extent) are such unique systems that are driven by cycles and schedules largely controlled by one organization, that it makes the data mining and modeling in a travel sense possible (and, I think, useful).

 

[ParentsOf4]

As long as you manage to get a FP+ for your favourite - there will be more people wanting to ride an attraction than the number of FP+ available - so some people are not going to be able to get a FP+ for TSMM on the day that they want to go to DHS... same as now.

Depending on the source, TSM's realized capacity is in the 900-to-1200 per hour range while the percentage of capacity distributed for FP is in the 50%-to-70% range. Taking the medians, this means that approximately 630 TSM FP are distributed per hour. DHS is open about 12 hours on average per day. (Some days more, some less.) Thus in the typical day, about 7560 TSM FP are distributed. Average daily attendance at DHS is about 27,000. Less than 1-in-3 DHS guests are able to get a FP for TSM.

As you note, FP+ does not increase capacity so this calculation does not change. There still will be a mad scramble to get TSM FP+ but, with FP+, it will occur online, not at the park.

FP+ doesn't really solve anything. It only changes where the problem occurs. This is why I earlier suggested that FP+ is about perception, about marketing. It's not about achieving results.

Having been raised to value physical labor, I'd prefer FP be distributed to those who put in the physical exertion. I realize others might feel differently and for different reasons.

 

[Witchy Chick]

Well now we just moved the problem from the physical get to the fast pass machine first part, into The Internet where people will be flooding servers trying to make reservations for the fast passes as soon as their trip allows it.

The same problem will exist and it will just exacerbate the problem

Not to mention how......robust.......WDW's IT has traditionally been. /sarcasm

 

[G00fyDad]

I live here.

The question is still valid. What time of the year are you going? Or do you mean that you go all year and have this issue?

 

[Genie of the Lamp]

The question is still valid. What time of the year are you going? Or do you mean that you go all year and have this issue?

Being that @PhotoDave219 is an AP, I think he was trying to make the point that he goes all year round and has this issue everytime he tries to get a walk up dinner reservation at a restaurant he considers dining at.

 

[G00fyDad]

Being that @PhotoDave219 is an AP, I think he was trying to make the point that he goes all year round and has this issue everytime he tries to get a walk up dinner reservation at a restaurant he considers dining at.

That is what I was thinking he meant, but I still wasn't sure if he was referring to a specific time of the year. I have not met anyone that has trouble getting a table. Not saying it doesn't happen to him. Not at all. Just really bad luck on his part or really good luck on everyone I know. Of course I have had ADR's for 50's Prime Time and still waited 45 minutes before I had enough sense to tell them to stick it and left for Sci-Fi. So I guess waits can happen either way.

 

[RSoxNo1]

It actually says: "a guest will be able to choose up to a maximum of 3 FASTPASS+ experiences at one park per day." I initially took that to mean that I could get 3 at MK and then park hop to EPCOT and get 3 there, and so on. I didn't think that meant that I could only get a total of 3 per day, period. That would make a big difference.

I was basing my 3 or 4 number from the tests and not from the latest speculation.