Fast Pass Removal?

[jakeman]

Any cases where you are unhappy and feel that FP has made something worse, to me at least, just proves that they are giving out too many FP's, not that FP's are bad for that attraction. That's all. They should reduce the number of FP's. Having a fixed number of FP's is a huge mistake, and something somebody once told me lead me to believe that is the case.

I would have to disagree. Just because a guest is unhappy doesn't mean there is something wrong with the system. If you reduce the number of Fastpass, you just reduce the number of guest that can use the system.

People choose to use the stand-by lines. That's all. Disney shouldn't be faulted for that choice.

 

[jakeman]

Lets say for rough math as well (not saying I'm agreeing with yours just putting it into another concept). Since capacity does stay the same.

Mission Space seats 160 people at a time if all 4 bays are running (which depending on crowds/protein/people forgetting items in the capsules is sometimes less). But if everything is running optimally you have 4 bays running about every 7 minutes (my rough guess on the time frame). So for sake of easy math lets say you have 160 people every 10 minutes or 1600 an hour.

Let's say out of every 40 people (or full bay) 4 are standby. This helps with the rough 10% rule I mentioned earlier.

So for each run of the ride you have 144 Fastpass users and 16 standby users. I have seen busy times where the lines are defiantly long enough all around to support this and yes people complained about slow lines.

Now I know this isn't perfect for capicty and such but it's close on a rough scale. Would you get in a line knowing you were only going to move 16 people every 10 minutes? Or 160 people an hour?

Or would you prefer the line that moves 160 people every 10 minutes and 1600 an hour?

I agree that this isn't the same for every ride and fastpass works for those who know how to use it, but quite honestly lines would be much faster and bearable in more than a few cases without fastpass. Especially those (Buzz) that constantly move.

This post was in reply to Jakeman's math post more than Foolish1s (who's was posted while I was typing this).

When you accept a Fastpass you are accepting just that, and you are taking the small risk that there will be more than 16 people people in front of you.

Like I said in the post above, it's about a choice. You are choosing a reduce risk of a wait time with Fastpass, or a high risk of a longer wait without it.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Any cases where you are unhappy and feel that FP has made something worse, to me at least, just proves that they are giving out too many FP's, not that FP's are bad for that attraction. That's all. They should reduce the number of FP's. Having a fixed number of FP's is a huge mistake, and something somebody once told me lead me to believe that is the case.

I agree with this point and will point out one other thing.

On days when the park is not busy, does it make sense to use entire load areas for Fastpass? What's the point in having 30 seat trains at BTMRR when only 15 people or less are in them? The return times for that ride on the day I went were within an hour of whatever time it was and the FP line was always empty but waits in the standby line were 40, 50 even 70 min!

It's another example of a variable that screws around with capacity, the number of people a ride could get through is technically the same but that number is not even close to begin put into practicality, not because of the system itself, but because of the line conifguration.

 

[jakeman]

I agree with this point and will point out one other thing.

On days when the park is not busy, does it make sense to use entire load areas for Fastpass? What's the point in having 30 seat trains at BTMRR when only 15 people or less are in them? The return times for that ride on the day I went were within an hour of whatever time it was and the FP line was always empty but waits in the standby line were 40, 50 even 70 min!

It's another example of a variable that screws around with capacity, the number of people a ride could get through is technically the same but that number is not even close to begin put into practicality, not because of the system itself, but because of the line conifguration.

When did they change BTMRR? We were there in June and they were collecting Fastpass at the top of the ramp and filling both sides.

If they are doing the way you seem to be describing, that is just dumb. That's not a Fastpass problem that is a line management issue.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

When did they change BTMRR? We were there in June and they were collecting Fastpass at the top of the ramp and filling both sides.

If they are doing the way you seem to be describing, that is just dumb. That's not a Fastpass problem that is a line management issue.

That was how it was in March (the first week, not spring break). Although FP were begin collected at the top of the ramp, the left load area was blocked off to SB guests. The line for the right side went up the ramp and snaked through a large portion of the queue while FP got it's own direct route to the left side of the load area. Convient for FP guests? Yes, but hardly a good example of effeciency. This was on a day when SM next door was a walk on.

 

[CJR]

I think the problem with FP is simple. They need to enforce them. People shouldn't be able to use a FP that expired nine hours ago, but the CM's let them on anyway. They need to learn to say "No, you have to wait on the SB if you want to ride." I mean if you're less than an hour late, I can understand that, but nine hours is a bit careless.

I use nine hours because a guest was recently boasting with me and a couple other people how she and her family get the FP's and go whenever they please, early or late (one she said she used nine hours late and the CM's let her!)

In summary, the CM's A: Need to look at the time and B: Need to enforce the time within reason. That would take care of the majority of the problems.

 

[JamieD]

Oh I agree, however, if hourly ride capacity has not decreased then there is not a problem, simple as that.

While training of individual CMs can make the operation smoother, the system itself is fine.

The Fastpass argument is 90% perception that there is a problem.
Interesting, I can point to the exact opposite in my experiences.

I'm not at all downing FP...I think it's a great service and use it at every opportunity. I was simply stating some human variables and the specific make-up of an attraction can have an affect on the system. We've all saved tons of time using the system, and had a time or two where it didn't seem to play out so well. I love FP (and these discussions)!

 

[RSoxNo1]

It's probably true that attractions without FASTPASS experience slightly longer lines than when FASTPASS was introduced. You don't need to stand in line at the FASTPASS attraction and are free to go on another ride, presumably some of which aren't other FASTPASS attractions. It's probably true that the Tomorrowland Speedway is slightly more busy, for example, because Buzz Lightyear has FASTPASS.

However, would the average guest wait longer in line at Space Mountain when it runs FASTPASS than if it did not?

Another interesting set of questions: do guests spend more time throughout the day in line when FASTPASS is running than when it is not? And do they see fewer, the same or more attractions because of it?

If anyone has decent simulation tools available, this would be worth studying.

Typically the days when fewer fastpass attractions are available are days with a lower crowd making the debate somewhat difficult to measure. Yes, it's a shame that no one on here has any simulation data for measuring crowd flow data...

I think the thought pattern is if fastpass wasn't there instead of two 45-60 minute waits you'ld have two 25-30 minute waits and still end up waiting the same amount of time overall in essence.
antifastpass
I'm not 100% sure if that's true but that's the point I gather from the people, and I've seen a little evidence myself from working in an attraction. You're expected to send a certain amount of fastpass people through then you send roughly 10% of that number through from standby then go right back to fastpass (which is why fastpass works). But then in theroy the standby line would move 90% quicker if there was no fastpass. I can't say it'd be perfect but there are definatly rides that would benefit without fastpass based off that principle...

This is assuming that guests use fastpass at 100% efficiency. The fact is, not everyone uses fastpass making it effective for those people that use it, and very effective for those people that use it at close to 100% efficiency.

That is to say, that if you are getting a fast pass as soon as you can get a new fast pass, and say using one of Len's touring plans, you are going to see and do more attractions than someone that is using fast pass at less than 100% efficiency or not at all. If everyone was using fastpass at 100% efficiency, than your two 45-60 minute waits (skipping 1, waiting in the other) converted to two 25-30 minute waits would be more accurate in the with fastpass/without fast pass scenarios.

I think the problem with FP is simple. They need to enforce them. People shouldn't be able to use a FP that expired nine hours ago, but the CM's let them on anyway. They need to learn to say "No, you have to wait on the SB if you want to ride." I mean if you're less than an hour late, I can understand that, but nine hours is a bit careless.

I use nine hours because a guest was recently boasting with me and a couple other people how she and her family get the FP's and go whenever they please, early or late (one she said she used nine hours late and the CM's let her!)

In summary, the CM's A: Need to look at the time and B: Need to enforce the time within reason. That would take care of the majority of the problems.

This is policy not a lenient cast member. The reason being is that adhering to that 1 hour window is difficult, especially given dinner reservations, ride evacs, child meltdowns, and another linchpin that can disrupt an otherwise well thought out schedule. Your 9 hour window point may be valid, but the frequency of guests that go outside of this window is relatively insignificant. However, I have noticed more recently that cast members are publicly stating that the window is really just a start point, it has no end point.

What is a positive development is that less and less cast members are accepting fast passes from prior days and even prior vacations. I actually would say it's reasonable to accept fast passes from up to a week before as over the length of a vacation issues can come up where fast passes may not be used because one of the aforementioned linchpins. I think what people take exception to is the inconsistency, there may be an official policy, but I don't feel it's always adhered to.

 

[BuzzComplexCM]

They need to enforce them. People shouldn't be able to use a FP that expired nine hours ago, but the CM's let them on anyway. They need to learn to say "No, you have to wait on the SB if you want to ride."

The CM's do not need to learn anything. We are trained in our areas that FP's are good from the time they start, aka the first time on the ticket, until the park closes. Whether that is nine seconds later, none minutes later, or nine hours later, as long as the date is valid on the FP it is good.

one she said she used nine hours late and the CM's let her!

Of course they let her, as long as the date on the FP is for that day it is still valid!

In summary, the CM's A: Need to look at the time and B: Need to enforce the time within reason. That would take care of the majority of the problems.

In summary, the CM's are doing what they were trained to do when they started Traditions and training within their areas. The times are being looked at by the CM's, need proof? Try going through a FP entrance and look at the people lined up holding their tickets waiting for the clock to hit their minute. As far as enforcing the time within reason, that again relates to the traning telling us that FP's are good until the park closes.

By denying people the ability to use a FP that is from that day would only cause more problems. Based on your ideas, the CM would tell the guest to get in the SB queue, the guest would complain and ask for a Manager. The Manager would then come over, hear the guest out and instruct the CM to allow the guest to use the FP queue. So by your standards, you would be adding a middle man and causing aggrivation for all parties, which is not needed.

 

[ms7479a]

That's a pretty bold rumor to be starting, but I like it! I was hoping that that whole Nintendo DS thing would catch on and you could get virtual FPs from wherever you wanted.

Its not a rumor. I was just at Animal Kingdom on Tuesday and I saw it myself. I was actually on a tour and the guide, who was from guest relations, said that they are testing it out to see how it works. He did say one of the reasons for doing it was because of the large Brazilian tour groups whose guides get large amounts of fastpasses at a time.

 

[DisneyWorldDork]

I know that the land one is seasonal. I also know that when it is working it screws people up. I used to work at Soarin' and every time the land's fp was up guests would use it thinking it was for soarin and then would come to soarin long after our passes were gone and tried using the land ones. :brick: The passes are green and the Soarin' ones are blue. If they read the passes it would save us all, including the other guests, lots of trouble

 

[BuzzComplexCM]

If they read the passes it would save us all, including the other guests, lots of trouble

From one CM to another, you know that Disney wastes so much money on signage!

 

[scottnj1966]

None of these attractions need fast pass.
They have small wait times.

Attractions with large wait time use the fast pass system and they do only allow a set amount of them to be released.
They usually stop handing out them for rides like Test Track, winnie the pooh, everest, etc way before the park closes.

There are now a bunch of attractions that previously had Fast Pass distribution that are currently not using them. Does this mean that they will be removed?

The ones I've noticed so far are:

Living With The Land
Stitch's Great Escape
Honey I Shrunk The Audience
Lights! Motors! Action!
It's Tough To Be a Bug
Mickey's Philharmagic

 

[Thrill Seeker]

I can't imagine MILF needs fast pass. I have never seen the line higher than 10 minutes when I go, and I go on busy days. (4th of July, Christmas)

MILF doesn't have Fast Pass...

Another thing you'll notice is that all of the attractions I mentioned no longer have Fast Pass listed in the map either. Just as another indication that these attractions might be losing FP for good.

 

[Thrill Seeker]

I think the problem with FP is simple. They need to enforce them. People shouldn't be able to use a FP that expired nine hours ago, but the CM's let them on anyway. They need to learn to say "No, you have to wait on the SB if you want to ride." I mean if you're less than an hour late, I can understand that, but nine hours is a bit careless.

I use nine hours because a guest was recently boasting with me and a couple other people how she and her family get the FP's and go whenever they please, early or late (one she said she used nine hours late and the CM's let her!)

In summary, the CM's A: Need to look at the time and B: Need to enforce the time within reason. That would take care of the majority of the problems.

I have seen where there are flaws with this. I have witnessed when a friend of mine was able to use a Fast Pass from a week ago on an attraction simply by handing it in quickly before the CM noticed. Granted, you can't always catch people doing stuff like that, but still, it can be done.

It also makes you wonder if somebody crafty could forge Fast Passes...

 

[Thrill Seeker]

Its not a rumor. I was just at Animal Kingdom on Tuesday and I saw it myself. I was actually on a tour and the guide, who was from guest relations, said that they are testing it out to see how it works. He did say one of the reasons for doing it was because of the large Brazilian tour groups whose guides get large amounts of fastpasses at a time.

Yeah that REALLY sucks for everyone else when the Brazilians take them all. Part of why I really despise those tour groups... :fork:

 

[BuzzComplexCM]

Yeah that REALLY sucks for everyone else when the Brazilians take them all. Part of why I really despise those tour groups... :fork:

Speaking of Tour Groups, when I was at Universal about three weeks ago a tour group was waiting in the Jaws queue. Luckily I had the Express Pass and was able to stay away from them. Anyway, they started one of their chants that we all know and love to hear for 45 minutes. Without missing a beat, the Universal employee got over the PA and said something along the lines of, "Thank you for visiting Universal Studios. We're glad you are having a fun day. However, if you think you will chant for the entire wait, you are wrong! Please, stop chanting!"

I looked at my fiancee and my jaw dropped. I would be telling a fib if I said I never wanted to say that while I was working!

 

[fosse76]

Applying some simple math here:

If an attraction has an hourly ride capacity of 1000 people per hour and Fastpass distributes 200 tickets per hour block, then 800 people in the standby line and 200 people in the Fastpass line should be able to get through in 1 hour.

If there are 3000 people in the standby line without Fastpass it would take them 3 hours to get through. With Fastpass, it would take them 3 hours and 45 minutes to go through. Increasing the wait time by 45 minutes. However, what everyone seems to willfully ignore is that in that 3 hours and 45 minutes an additional 750 people with Fastpass will also be going through the line for a total of 3750 people.

Your hourly ride capacity doesn't change. The standby line is increased, but the only people that are at a disadvantage are those that choose not to get a Fastpass.

This math applies to all attractions. I don't really understand the argument that it works for some attractions and not others. Math is math. Unless there is something in the Fastpass system that lowers the hourly ride capacity for attractions, the system is sound.

The people in the standby line are choosing, not to wait in a single que of people, but in a single que and a virtual que as well. Fastpass patrons are only waiting in the virtual que.

Your math is correct and faulty at the same time. FP isn't just allowing people on the line...it's shifting guests to a later time. I'll give a simplistic explanation, because FPs are issued all throughout the day and for varius times, but we'll stick to even hours for the example.

Attraction has a capacity of 1000 guests per hour, and issues 350 FPs.

Let's say at 10:00am there are a 1000 guests queued up, making the wait an hour. However, 350 FPs are available at the FP distribution machines starting at 10:00am. Those 350 FPs are NOT for the hour of 10:00am to 11:00am. They will be relegated to the next hour based on when, during the hour of 10:00am, a guest has grabbed it. It's more like a reservation system at a restaurant...the difference being that only a few spots are reservable. FP is shifting riders to a later time. If the people who grabbed a FP didn't have that option, they would have gotten into the standby line, bringing the numer of guests queuing to 1350 and driving up the wait time to 1 hour and 17 minutes.

So now we arrive at 11:00am - 12:00pm. FP returns drive up the standby wait time to 1 hour and 17 minutes. Had the FP guests not gotten the FPs and got in line during the 10:00am - 11:00am window, then the wait time for that hour (10am-11am) would have been 1 hour and 17 minutes instead of only 1 hour. So without FP the standby wait times would have remained unchanged.

This of course assumes constant attendance with no fluctuation, but it is only an example.

This system, of course makes the assumption that people who grab a FP would have gotten in line anyway, so the wait time should be the same. Guests who don't return period and guests who show up later cancel each other out. There might be an increase in wait times for non-FP attractions or even another FP attraction because now a guest is in two places at once, however I think the effect is minimal.

Disney is making the assumption that without FP, those guests would have most likely have gotten in line anyway, so a guest in the standby line isn't waiting any longer. Ideally the guest is in line for food or shopping. And keep in mind that the FP holder actually waits longer than the standby. The only difference is they aren't actually in line.

 

[Thrill Seeker]

Speaking of Tour Groups, when I was at Universal about three weeks ago a tour group was waiting in the Jaws queue. Luckily I had the Express Pass and was able to stay away from them. Anyway, they started one of their chants that we all know and love to hear for 45 minutes. Without missing a beat, the Universal employee got over the PA and said something along the lines of, "Thank you for visiting Universal Studios. We're glad you are having a fun day. However, if you think you will chant for the entire wait, you are wrong! Please, stop chanting!"

I looked at my fiancee and my jaw dropped. I would be telling a fib if I said I never wanted to say that while I was working!

Yeah, if you did something like that at Disney, you could get terminated...

 

[CJR]

We are trained in our areas that FP's are good from the time they start, aka the first time on the ticket, until the park closes. Whether that is nine seconds later, none minutes later, or nine hours later, as long as the date is valid on the FP it is good.

So what I got out of that was the 1. CM's are trained badly and 2. an invalid (late) FP is considered valid.

Late is late. That's the problem. I understand there are things like dining reservations and such, but if your FP time is during a dining reservation, don't get a FP for that time. You know what time the FP is good for when you get it. That is made very clear. That time needs to be enforced within reason, such as an hour or two. Our longest lines are an hour or two so there's no reason for someone to be nine hours late. Yes, they are late, their ticket is no longer valid. If they are training you any way differently, they are defeating the purpose of the window.

The window is designed so that the SB line doesn't get backed up too badly. If you let people show up late, that defeats the purpose. That is the problem. That is what needs changed.