Fantasyland expansion a go - CONFIRMED

[WDW1974]

It's the local-driven attendance in Tokyo. They need to see whatever is new. The same thing happens a lot in Anaheim with the 800,000+ Annual Passholders and the 15 Million other people living within a 90 minute freeway drive of Disneyland between a triangle bordered by Ventura, Palm Springs, and San Diego. Walt was a pure genius for recognizing Anaheim as the center of a growing megalopolis of the future.

Absolutely on all counts. That's largely the case in HK too (people just aren't showing up in big numbers ... yet) ... and even to some extent in Paris.

The thought from WDW1974 that Magic Kingdom is a "mass-market caricature of Disneyland" couldn't be more accurate in my opinion. There's this flatness, this broad and dull sense of operations that 'we do this just for silly tourists and not for Walt' that permeates much of WDW. And that feeling is most apparent at Magic Kingdom, perhaps because that park is most like what Walt knew about the show he was putting on for his guests in his park.

The other aspect of that feeling comes from there being such great untapped potential at Magic Kingdom. It's like it could be the most amazing theme park in the world, but they forgot the combination to unlock it about 20 years ago. There a sense of style and showmanship and elegance that is missing in Magic Kingdom, but that can still be found at Disneyland. Magic Kingdom could get it back if they wanted and be more like Disneyland, but it's like they don't know how.

Again, dead on accurate.

It's almost like MK started slowly and kept getting better for its first 25 years and then ... almost all downhill (recent rehabs aside).

The showmanship issue is the key. And if I ever write some observations from my recent visits to Paris and Anaheim, I'll contrast with O-Town and this will be the biggest issue.

I don't know exactly why, but there's something missing in MK ... something I see in all of the other MK-style parks I've been to (all but TDL). It's a feeling of depth, of intimacy, of immersion.

It's hard to explain, but it hits you strongly when you visit numerous MKs in a short period (I was at MK for parts of six days in July and two months later in Paris and Anaheim).

MK has regressed over the years (hopefully the new F-land expansion will help but it's a small part).

It's like I was telling some friends today (who are also big Disney fans) about the Castle at DLP vs. MK. At DLP it almost feels organic ... part of the landscape. There's the waterfall and hillside. There's the trees that look like they came out of Sleeping Beauty. The color just is well done with the position of the sun in France. Then you have an amazing detailed interior. At DLP, you have a second level where the story of the film is told in beautiful tapestries and stained glass ... and you can walk out and see beautiful vistas ... like in a storybook.

Where MK once had a nice shop with swords and crystal and (later) Disney art and now makes up little girls like Jon-Benet for a ridiculous price. At DLP, you have two shops. One is Christmas merchandise. The other is like a wizard's workshop that is choc full of details (every shop is really) and if you take a 'hidden' staircase you wind up in a dungeon where there's a real dragon, that wakes from his slumber and spews smoke and is just a great sight. ... But DLP doesn't have a princess character meal locale. Of course, back in the day, you could dine at King Stefan's as a male (even a straight one!) and not feel out of place. You could get a huge slab of prime rib on pewter dishware that one might find in a medieval castle. No more.

It's been dumbed down to the LCD. Disney wants to sell princess lifestyles to little gals and their mommies and daddies.

We all lost something because of it.

That's the case all around. The Disney Details have been taken away in FLA ... replaced by searches for Hidden/OBVIOUS Mickeys in resort carpets and bedspreads. The WDI layering was never as detailed at MK and now it's a whole lot worse.

I had a thread on LP.com some time ago asking 'Has the MK Lost Its Soul?' ... one I wouldn't dare put here. But when you visit other MKs, it's impossible to not answer at the very least 'quite possibly'.

I would hope that this silly One Disney thing might be able to import some managers from Anaheim out to Orlando to re-teach them how to run a Disneyland. The big New Fantasyland project coming in 2012-13 might be just the perfect opportunity for that type of cultural exchange at the management level to take place.

.

Don't count on it. The biggest exchange going on now is staffing MK with kids from ... (this will not shock you!) Shanghai!

And One Disney is largely a Jay Rasulo intiative to keep an iron-fisted grip on all the parks.

 

[WDW1974]

Maybe there's a reason why MK is the #1 park worldwide. You can most likely do all the rides within a day, if rushing, or 2 days and never experience a line, without FP, over 50 minutes (besides the occasional Splash and always Dumbo which as we know is changing for the better).

MK is No. 1 because Burbank mandates it and marketing makes many people think WDW is the 'real' Disney resort.

Yes, you can do all the rides in a day unless it is ridiculously crowded, and even then it's possible. Of course, other than HKDL, no MK comes close to having less attractions than MK does to begin with. It also has less live entertainment than ANY other MK park too.

But you're way off on the lines. Even on a moderately crowded day, you'll see waits well over an hour for everything from the mountains to Pan to Pooh etc

'we do this just for silly tourists and not for Walt'- I never get that feeling. I've seen so many CMs help when not even warranted and going the extra mile. I think you're just pulling this opinion out because it might help your argument. As far as I know, the employees would be fired if they didn't do their job above and beyond what's expected.

I know you're young, so I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... but I take it you've never been to any other Disney resort?

Every resort has a different vibe. WDW's is decidely touristy ... except for instance weekends at EPCOT when locals come out ... or holidays ... and the only time it seems to have the same crazy good-time vibe DL always has seems to be over Spring Break.

As to CMs ... I think they are mostly very good. But overall they don't come close to the level of CMs in Anaheim, Hong Kong and Paris. They just don't.

And believe me, you don't get fired from WDW for not going above and beyond. I don't want to crush your illusions, but reality is reality.

 

[unkadug]

Has anyone overlayed the new plans with the old 20k area?

Here's one:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3782903&postcount=3

Oh yeah, thanks!

THAT was weird. It almost like optijay and jt04 are the same person.:lookaroun

 

[wserratore1963]

Oh yeah, thanks!

I know that there are lot's of negative reviews & thoughts on this; however I think it will be a nice visual stroll and the overall feel of the place will be enjoyable.

I was there a few weeks back and the entire FL & toon area are really, really tired and not at all inspiring.

I am looking forward to this project. Moreover I am glad to see they are spending money in MK again.

 

[jt04]

THAT was weird. It almost like optijay and jt04 are the same person.:lookaroun

I'm sure optijay would see that as a nice compliment. :drevil::lol:





But no, I don't need an alias unlike some here. And I know who they are. :zipit:



PS - Con was lurking here last night.

 

[tirian]

The other MKs seem much more layered throughout. The narrative is more complete, telling and compelling. MK certainly was more detailed once than it is now.

And Fantasyland and the joke that is Mickey's Tentland are certainly the worst offenders, no doubt.

I agree with the "layers" argument, but I still find AL, FrL, and LS very detailed. You're right, though: MK was certainly more detailed at one point. My problem, and I freely admit it, is that at just over 30 yrs, I'm too young to have strong memories of DL and WDW before they started getting Wal-Marted. That's why FL and TTF are the biggest differences to me.

TL at DL is no more a mess than at MK. They both waste a lot of space. DL benefits from the sub lagoon ... with the monorails above the kinetics are amazing. Yeah, AL is tiny ... but what's there works greatly. I'll take it over MK any day. What greets you when you enter MK's A-land? A huge shuttered food outlet and a smoking area on the right and tacky crocs and crap carts on the left ..then you have a spinner and shuttered shops. At DL? Real tiki torches, shops that have some themed merchandise, then the JC/Indy area and even the cool entrance for Tarzan's Treehouse.

Frontierland on substance is a toss-up ... I love the fact you can see entertainers in the Golden Horseshoe at DL, albeit no review show. But what wins it for DLR is the beautiful tree-lined Big Thunder Trail and Ranch area. So ... I won't even give ya those two!

I was merely pointing out that every park has issues; I'm certainly not going to try to say the MK is better than DL, 'cause I know that's not true! :wave:

DLP is truly looking great (one huge exception being the Peter Pan queue, which needs an immediate graffiti removal). Overall, I'm not sure it's ever looked better in my visits. ... Indeed, Alice and Indy had just reopened from rehabs and looked amazing. I've never seen Alice so bright and vivid, with all its effects working. And the Plaza Gardens Restaurant was just reopened and looks brand new. There's also loads of new pavement in Discoveryland. ... There are still problem areas, but it really is looking good there.

As to TDR, I don't know how you can say it doesn't have enough attractions. WDW is king of having parks that are sadly lacking in the capacity department. I don't see that in Tokyo, although I still haven't been there ... but I am pretty up on what goes on there.

DLP's maintenance has reportedly gone up a bit recently, so I'm glad you had the shiny new look; but my experience and my French friends' opinion is that the Europeans trash the park, and management cannot keep up with it. I blame the culture, not Disney.

TDO represents a huge anomaly to me. As I've told you, I've never been to TDS—but I'm going next year!—so my opinion comes from TDL. The park had too much empty space (I know, necessary for crowds); it was too outdated (FL, Dumbo, and TL spring to mind); it was CROWDED. Queues for the most simple attractions stretched for hours, which is also why I don't buy that the MK is truly the most visited theme park on earth. TDR simply needs more attractions.

I do agree that every park has its own unique problems, no doubt.

That's what I was emphasizing. Of course, the fact remains that WDW needs the most help.

I am hoping this isn't what winds up happening by the time we get to 2012-13. Fantasyland is butt ugly (well, not my butt ... that's a work of art!) and if half the land looks amazing, but half looks like the 1970s ... well, that's not good!

Unofficially, FL will get completely new façades. Unofficially, there was "no way" Space Mt's refurb would be complete in fewer than 18 months. I rest my case.

I'm optimistic about the changes coming to the MK, Epcot, and the Studios; but as long as certain key execs are in place, I don't think we'll see a 100% return to WDW's former glory as the most prestigious, cutting-edge, desirable vacation destination on earth.

Despite my positivity regarding upcoming plans, I haven't swallowed the pixie pills.

 

[tirian]

The thought from WDW1974 that Magic Kingdom is a "mass-market caricature of Disneyland" couldn't be more accurate in my opinion. There's this flatness, this broad and dull sense of operations that 'we do this just for silly tourists and not for Walt' that permeates much of WDW. And that feeling is most apparent at Magic Kingdom, perhaps because that park is most like what Walt knew about the show he was putting on for his guests in his park.

The other aspect of that feeling comes from there being such great untapped potential at Magic Kingdom. It's like it could be the most amazing theme park in the world, but they forgot the combination to unlock it about 20 years ago. There a sense of style and showmanship and elegance that is missing in Magic Kingdom, but that can still be found at Disneyland. Magic Kingdom could get it back if they wanted and be more like Disneyland, but it's like they don't know how.

STALE MANAGEMENT + Good-Ol'-Boy promotions + Spreadsheet-driven vision.

IMO, Disney is the only Fortune 100 Company that can cut its most talented assets, shut its doors to hiring fresh talent, and keep execs with no long-term vision—yet still keep Wall Street appeased* and its image relatively high in the public conscious. That's impressive.

Iger purchased Pixar and Marvel, allowed Lassetter to revive hand-drawn animation, and pushed for the upgrades to DCA and WDW's MK. If he would simply replace stale execs who don't understand what makes Disney different from other theme parks (hint: it's not just magic) with people who do "get it," we wouldn't be having this discussion.

*Except for analysts who started calling out Rasulo for his lack of range, thus prompting him to give a highly scripted presentation for the FL expansion at the MK.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

THAT was weird. It almost like optijay and jt04 are the same person.:lookaroun

:lookaroun

I have theories.:lookaroun:lol:


And after all this reading.....And what I heard yesterday.....Disneyland in 2012 needs to happen for me.:lol: MK cuts it for me now, and I know it has problems, but WOW. The descriptions paint a interesting picture for me.

I know it isn't, but it sounds like the ideal MK.

 

[WDW Vacationer]

:lookaroun

I have theories.:lookaroun:lol:


And after all this reading.....And what I heard yesterday.....Disneyland in 2012 needs to happen for me.:lol: MK cuts it for me now, and I know it has problems, but WOW. The descriptions paint a interesting picture for me.

I know it isn't, but it sounds like the ideal MK.

I thought I was Jt?:lookaroun:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I thought I was Jt?:lookaroun:lol:

Did you?:lookaroun

 

[WDW Vacationer]

Did you?:lookaroun

According to you I was!!:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

According to you I was!!:lol:

Ah...Yes...the hacking. :lol:

 

[jt04]

:lookaroun

I have theories.:lookaroun:lol:

Oh please, enlighten us. I need a good guffaw. :lookaroun

 

[AEfx]

This is a really great discussion!

I can agree - while I love the MK dearly, it's Fantasyland has always seemed so incomplete to me. We have less rides than TDR, TDL, and DLP, and they are generally the poorest versions available.

I hope that after they get all this new stuff up and running they eventually start refurbing the existing rides (Snow White, Pan, etc.) to bring them up to snuff as well.

The Little Mermaid will hold me over for quite some time, though - I haven't been more excited for a ride since Splash Mountain!

 

[jt04]

This is a really great discussion!

I can agree - while I love the MK dearly, it's Fantasyland has always seemed so incomplete to me. We have less rides than TDR, TDL, and DLP, and they are generally the poorest versions available.

I hope that after they get all this new stuff up and running they eventually start refurbing the existing rides (Snow White, Pan, etc.) to bring them up to snuff as well.

The Little Mermaid will hold me over for quite some time, though - I haven't been more excited for a ride since Splash Mountain!

I'm sticking to my theory that 20K was a last minute add which ate up the original FL budget and is just now in the process of being fixed. 40 years plus after the error. Thanks the sheriff! :wave:

 

[_Scar]

But 20k is/was touted as one hell of a ride. Plus WDW had the same Fantasyland as Disnelyland at the time. Their Fantasyland got changed in 1982. Ours remained the same.

 

[jt04]

But 20k is/was touted as one hell of a ride. Plus WDW had the same Fantasyland as Disnelyland at the time. Their Fantasyland got changed in 1982. Ours remained the same.

I think DL's was in T-Land. I think 20K was a great ride but my opinion continues to be it was shoe horned into the wrong land and was too expensive. Now the problem is close to being rectified....forever.

And it's good. :king:

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think DL's was in T-Land. I think 20K was a great ride but my opinion continues to be it was shoe horned into the wrong land and was too expensive. Now the problem is close to being rectified....forever.

And it's good. :king:

You would think in the interviews and stories told about the issues building the ride vehicles that somebody involved in the project, like Bob Gurr or George McGinnis, would mention the short time table. Or there might be art for the Magic Kingdom that clearly lacks the attraction.

 

[TP2000]

'we do this just for silly tourists and not for Walt'- I never get that feeling. I've seen so many CMs help when not even warranted and going the extra mile. I think you're just pulling this opinion out because it might help your argument. As far as I know, the employees would be fired if they didn't do their job above and beyond what's expected.

No offense, but I take it you have never been to Disneyland or Tokyo Disneyland? If you are basing your Disney park experience solely on the Florida property, and solely on the last 10 or 15 years, then I would strongly encourage you to get out and visit the Disney properties in California and Japan.

That said, my criticism earlier of Magic Kingdom was not aimed at the front line CM's working the attractions, shops and restaurants. There are great CM's in Florida, and some grumpy or unpolished ones too. There are great CM's in California, and some bored OC teens who simply don't have the service gene. Japanese CM's however are darn near perfect.

My criticism that Magic Kingdom lacked a sense of style and showmanship and elegance is rooted primarily in their physical facilities, their choice of operational decisions, and their aim at certain demographics without thought to showmanship. There's a hundred examples both huge and tiny, but some of the easiest off the top of my head are:

The Rivers of America. At Disneyland they've got the classic Riverboat, the rafts to a refreshed and snazzy Tom Sawyer Island, plus the fabulous Sailing Ship Columbia and a fleet of Davy Crockett Canoes traveling around the river. At Magic Kingdom every time I've been there it's just a lone riverboat and a single raft going back and forth. At Disneyland the Rivers of America are alive with activity and excitement every time you glance at it, but at Magic Kingdom the Rivers of America just sort of sits there empty for long stretches of time like a stagnant flood control channel.

Magic Kingdom would be wise to get in on this kind of river action;

Then there's Main Street USA. Disneyland has worked hard to keep the street fresh and entertaining, yet kept it from becoming one giant Disney Store. The Main Street Cinema still plays Mickey Mouse cartoons, the Penny Arcade still has period games of skill and fun for a penny or a nickel, and the Fire Station still has real firefighting equipment and displays just for fun without a cash register in sight. All of those things in Magic Kingdom have become shop after shop selling the same t-shirts, pins, and stuffed animals. When Disneyland's Bank of Main Street became the new Disney Gallery (partly because no one needs a real bank anymore in the debit card age), they did an amazing job refreshing and reinventing the space into a gorgeous bank-themed art gallery that's twice as pretty as the old bank it replaced.

Or silly little things like the Big Thunder Ranch petting farm. Goats you can pet, cows and donkeys and cookie decorating. The farm gets totally decorated for Halloween, and they dress the animals up in silly costumes for HalloweenTime. And at Christmas, Disneyland ships in the pardoned Presidential Turkey and a fleet of real, live Reindeer from Alaska. Just for fun, just because it's cool. There's no cash register at the ranch, just animals.

But more and more Magic Kingdom just seems to be operated based on a spreadsheet aimed at middle-class DVC members who have 9 year old girls, without thought to what might be simply fun or cool or unique. Let's hope this New Fantasyland for 2013 can be a springboard for Magic Kingdom management to get some Disneyland-style spring in their step and showmanship that isn't tied to a spreadsheet.

.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Oh please, enlighten us. I need a good guffaw. :lookaroun

Thank you for taking the joke to the next level.:brick::ROFLOL:

This is a really great discussion!

I can agree - while I love the MK dearly, it's Fantasyland has always seemed so incomplete to me. We have less rides than TDR, TDL, and DLP, and they are generally the poorest versions available.

I hope that after they get all this new stuff up and running they eventually start refurbing the existing rides (Snow White, Pan, etc.) to bring them up to snuff as well.

The Little Mermaid will hold me over for quite some time, though - I haven't been more excited for a ride since Splash Mountain!

Well, compared to to others, I guess it is.

That might change soon, with the look and depth of the place, though.

I'm sticking to my theory that 20K was a last minute add which ate up the original FL budget and is just now in the process of being fixed. 40 years plus after the error. Thanks the sheriff! :wave:

It's wrong, IMHO....

You don't shoe horn an ETic in.