Families of autistic kids sue Disney parks over policy on lines

[Dads 2 Boys]

I have an acquaintance who has an autistic child (more milder case) and has abused the system in the past because she says "she can" b/c WDW allows it. It's been annoying to me although I do not have an autistic child so I don't know. She said the new system bothers her only because they have to basically be more like most other guests.

I think she is one of those people that has caused the system to be changed by abusing it. I'm not shocked about the lawsuit but it is a frivolous one.

 

[Spikerdink]

Okay, I am going to ask a question here that comes from a place of ignorance on Autism so don't thrash me for asking. Doesn't a person with Autism have trouble with lots of lights, sounds, and other sensory stimuli? Why would anyone risk taking someone with Autism to something like Disney World or Disneyland?

My good friend's first born son is autistic. He and his wife have been very practive in working with Jack on various issues that arise with his autism. My friend has taken Jack to Disney since he was an infant and one reason is to see how Jack can incorporate the different strategies that were put in place with his school, etc. Five years ago, when Jack saw/heard the fireworks, he would go into meltdown, yelling/screaming/crying. We learned to get Jack out of the parks before the fireworks. Today, Jack can tolerate the fireworks with little problem. While he still does not like rides, he does like to look around the parks, he loves to meet the characters and he likes to do things with his dad. That's why my friend takes his autistic son to Disney. His two younger sons are not autistic, and go through the park without problem. It is not an option, and not fair, that Jack be left behind and not be included in family outings. What my friend does is make the accomodations necessary to make Jack's trip, and the entire family's trip, enjoyable.

 

[jmmc]

First, are we pretty much agreed that this new policy is happening because of people abusing it? Because, of course, those are the kind of jerks that ruin everything for the reasonable people. Simply allowing autistic children the same access to a separate line as a physically handicapped person would seemed to work well.

Over a year ago, we had a family trip to Disney which included an autistic child. As many have said here, autism is a "spectrum" of various, more specific conditions. Some who have it cannot take loud noises or crowds of any kind, but it varies for others. Parents and advocates of these children (and adults) do have a tendency to get defensive about things, because many who don't really understand just think these are misbehaving children and just need to be taught to deal with things or disciplined. There are kids like that and probably some over-medicated, over-diagnosed out there. But these kids' minds just work slightly differently, they relate to things differently. And for some, standing in line for 45 minutes with nothing to do is torturous. As the week of vacation went on, we saw that the little boy with us actually handled things better than expected. There was really no way to know in advance. He, for example, went to the Festival of the Lion King and enjoyed it, though he spent the whole show blocking his ears.

But I'm getting off track here. I'm not sure we can turn everyone else's world upside down for these people, but no one would ever say that person in the wheelchair should just work harder and get into that ride with the other people. Some of the autistic people we're talking about would have just as much difficulty dealing with a long line, having to struggle to get through it. And I don't see how helping around that can be offensive to others. Unfortunately, some horrible people abuse this kind of thing, and I'm afraid they have made it difficult for the people truly needing it. Laws to help disabled are in place, and they should be followed. But no matter what you do, someone will find a way to exploit it. Like someone who borrows a handicapped placard when parking.

I'd also like to say -- and maybe the person who said this was just justifiably curious -- that suggesting a parent just not take a kid to that environment is not really fair. Again, stimuli affect these people very differently, but they can still have a lot of fun at Disney. I know the boy we went with did. Again, it's like saying, if you have some trouble getting around in a wheelchair, why go anywhere it may be difficult?

I guess I will admit that I hate how everyone resorts to suing someone, and maybe they shouldn't. But I also fear that the jerks who try to cheat the system and take advantage start to make others suspicious of those without an obvious physical disability.

 

[RandomPrincess]

I just wanted to add that Disneyland requires pictures for all mulitday passes to their park. This lawsuit was filed in CA so the other guests not having to have their picture taken is not true for DL.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I just wanted to add that Disneyland requires pictures for all mulitday passes to their park. This lawsuit was filed in CA so the other guests not having to have their picture taken is not true for DL.

It is something Walt Disney World should also consider. A photo linked to MyMagic+ could be used to validate Annual Pass/employee discounts, a child's height or other person-specific functionality.

 

[Obi]

I’ve been through this more in depth in past threads, so I’ll do a quick version here.
Autism isn’t about being afraid or repulsed by sensory input. Its more like an exposed nerve. There is no filter for that sensory input. If the sensory input is welcome and the feelings are good, then those with autism can find a level of joy out of that sensory input that those of us without will never be able to experience. The sheer exhilaration on my son’s face when he is "in the zone", is something I am truly jealous of. It’s a true emphatic joy for the stimuli he is receiving. The flip side, is he can’t shut it out. When it goes bad, when the input is unwelcome or something unpleasant, there is no suffering through it. It is like salt in a wound.

Those with autism that have a better time with that sensory input and more frequently enjoy it than not are called sensory seekers. Those who have more issues with it are called sensory sensitive. My son is a sensory seeker now, so WDW is a dream to him. But there are times when it gets too much and he will shut down and be inconsolable. But, the good times outweigh the bad (more and more as he gets older) so the bad is worth it for the good. Each person with autism will be an individual, and it is up to them and their parents to decide whether WDW works for them. As I have explained in depth in the past, we had a sensory sensitive child who came alive because of the over stimulation in the parks, so we used that to help him become more of a sensory seeker by using WDW as a therapy. It has worked wonders for him, and has helped him become far more capable of dealing with those stresses in everyday life. He still has his moments, but WDW has helped them become far less frequent.

So, to answer your question. Why would I risk bringing my son, to WDW? Because the reward is worth it. Not all tantrums are bad. Not all dissapointments, breakdowns, and crying fits, are a pure evil. We learn from them and grow. So, suffering through those early, have made him able to enjoy his favorite place in the world. He grew from those experiences, and can now enjoy WDW with limited break downs, and with now very limited use of DAS/GAC.

i know very little about autism. so, i'm genuinely asking a question(s) out of wanting to understand.

you said that going to disney has helped him, even though he has had his moments in the past. i'm curious, if you know, if there were certain things, sounds, sights, and so on, that you picked up on that helped him while at disney that you learned to better help him and also perhaps notice other certain things that might cause a disruption? have you been able to better plan a trip to disney for him, and your family, to enjoy by learning what helps and what doesn't?

 

[networkpro]

I'm sorry this topic always devolve into warring camps.Both sides are competing for a scarce resource, namely ride time. Each attraction as we all know has a limited capacity of customers per hour, and to distribute those "slots", 2 mechanisms were put into place to maintain order: physical queues and reservation systems (fastpass and now fastpass+) virtual queues. The DAS and VIP Tour programs are not that magical, they don't introduce additional attraction capacity, they reduce the projected customer accessibility from queue (manual) reservation (automated) systems. The "experiences" that amusement parks create are designed to employ sight, sound, smell, and physical sensation (gravity, inertia, air movement).

Everyone is going to quibble about exactly what equal access entails, the but law says

A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate individuals with disabilities.

A modification is not required if it would "fundamentally alter" the goods, services, or operations of the public accommodation.


Its similar to asking the question "What is your favorite color?" and getting the following answers : Blue, Green, Thursday.

 

[GrumpyFan]

Seriously????
Are you kidding me??
(The load of excrement below)

There are several statements in the suit similar to that in tone, some of which made it seem like it was written by a high school student.
They made some good and valid points in their claim, but they also went to the extreme on a several occasions, seemingly trying to make a point. Sadly, for their case, I think statements like that tend to undermine their efforts.

Section 5 gets pretty interesting. They claim that Disney has posted Disinformation and outrageous and insulting videos on the web.

48. Fearing for its own reputation within the highly profitable non-disabled
community, Disney arranges for messages to be posted on such
websites, without acknowledging Disney’s sponsorship, of wellscripted
positive messages which are actually from Disney employees
or agents.
49. Disney has sponsored, without attribution or acknowledgement,
numerous videos on the internet which are wickedly contrary to
everything Disney knows about cognitive impairments. There can be
no good faith reason for sponsoring false messages. These videos are
designed to induce the non-disabled community to believe that Disney
is really trying to accommodate persons with cognitive impairments.
For viewers within the disabled community, the videos are even worse
because they blame the autistic person for their own failures to
appreciate Disney’s Parks. They go so far as to propose that the reason
an autistic person cannot tolerate a ridiculous queue time is their own
lack of effort or control; they can self-teach themselves to handle such
environments, and if they were to simply try harder, they would see
that one-hour waits are just fine. In October 2013 a video appeared
advising parents of children with developmental disorders to have
their child practice waiting before visiting the park. Disney knew
disabled Plaintiffs are incapable of waiting in long lines without melting
down yet treated the harm caused by waiting as if it were a skill which
could be acquired with repetition.​

I didn't see where they provided proof of these, or any kind of reference. Is anybody aware of this or what they are referring to?

 

[GrumpyFan]

On page 37, I found this:

90. D.L., through D.L.’s acquisition of Disney tickets for D.L. and her family,
entered into a contract through which Disney promised to provide a
reasonable and enjoyable amusement park experience, and one which
complies with applicable law.

91. Disney failed or refused to provide the promised experience, and is in
breach of contract.

92. D.L. incurred monetary costs in purchasing tickets to the Parks for trips
that were entirely wasted, and incurred other expenses during the
wasted trips to the Parks. Plaintiff is damaged by Disney’s breach of
contract.
​

Suing a theme park because they didn't provide a "reasonably enjoyable" experience?
That's a new one! (For me at least)

 

[mcurtiss]

I didn't see where they provided proof of these, or any kind of reference. Is anybody aware of this or what they are referring to?

you don't provide proof in a civil complaint. All is required is "notice" of the general issues of the case.

 

[jmmc]

A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate individuals with disabilities.

A modification is not required if it would "fundamentally alter" the goods, services, or operations of the public accommodation.

And, of course, that's the issue. What is "reasonable"? That term is vague because what's reasonable is a matter of opinion. Deciding what legal statements mean is like interpreting the Constitution or The Bible.

 

[Hyperspace Hoopla]

...and next year, when we're all in shock that it costs $105 a day to get into MK, let's think about how much money is wasted on these lawsuits.

 

[Gomer]

i know very little about autism. so, i'm genuinely asking a question(s) out of wanting to understand.

you said that going to disney has helped him, even though he has had his moments in the past. i'm curious, if you know, if there were certain things, sounds, sights, and so on, that you picked up on that helped him while at disney that you learned to better help him and also perhaps notice other certain things that might cause a disruption? have you been able to better plan a trip to disney for him, and your family, to enjoy by learning what helps and what doesn't?

Not a problem! (Advance warning for a long post. If anyone doesn't want a long winded recap of how I tour WDW with my son, feel free to skip this post.)

And the answer is absolutely, we have used his reactions to adapt the way we do the parks. I’ll give you a few examples.
- Our first trip with my son when he was three and mostly non-verbal included some of his first non-scripted interactions since he had regressed at age 1. He showed a preference for Small World, Pooh, and the carousel. We were so astonished by his actual expression of desire for anything that we basically rode those rides non-stop the entire week. To this day they are still some of his favorites having since been joined by Pirates, Spaceship Earth, LWTL, and Kilimanjaro Safaris.
- On subsequent trips we used those rides as rewards for driving behavior. When we started he could barely wait on any line. So, I would start easy with the requirement he wait the 10 minutes for small world or Tiki Room and if he did a good job reward hime with a GAC’d ride on Pooh (the ultimate favorite and best driver of behavior). Over time we’d expand on that. Longer lines, multiple rides. Longer shows.
- These days, we don’t really do one for one rewards anymore. He’s 10 now and has mostly grown out of the need for that. But we make a visual schedule for him of his day. If we are going to Epcot and MK one day, He will have a visual schedule that has the hotel room-epcot-hotel room- MK- hotel room. This way he knows the routine for the day. Then we negotiate our plans.

Typical morning conversation:
Son(looking at schedule): First Epcot, then hotel, then Magic Kingdom, then sleep.
Me: That’s right
Son: What will you do at Epcot today?
Me: We’ll go on rides, then eat at the restaurant then take the bus home.
Son: First Spaceship earth, then restaurant, then bus.
Me: First Spaceship earth, then “go on rides”. Then restaurant, then bus.
Son: First Spaceship earth, then “farm ride” then go on rides, then restaurant, then bus.

This continues until we’ve negotiated our morning plans. Once he has the schedule down in his head, he is far less likely to have any issues. Although a break in that schedule due to weather or ride breakdown can be problematic. I always try to leave in “go on rides” to create a buffer. Then he can’t accuse me of lying no matter what we do in between.

We are always out of the park by 12:30 and don’t go back until dinner time to keep him away from the worst crowds. We always travel at less busy times of year, to lower the impact on his comfort level. We always fly first thing in the morning to minimize security waits at the airport. All things I’ve picked up over time that make it a more comfortable experience for him and therefore more fun for the rest of us. It’s an evolving strategy. There are always new issues each time we go. But, I’d rather work at this than rely on Disney to make his experience perfect. What they do with DAS is welcome and has been a great help, but I don’t want him reliant on it, because things change. And he doesn’t respond well to change. So, I like to leave the variables like GAC/DAS to a minimum. Now if I could only find some way to ensure they never close down that Pooh ride.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[jmmc]

you said that going to disney has helped him, even though he has had his moments in the past. i'm curious, if you know, if there were certain things, sounds, sights, and so on, that you picked up on that helped him while at disney that you learned to better help him and also perhaps notice other certain things that might cause a disruption? have you been able to better plan a trip to disney for him, and your family, to enjoy by learning what helps and what doesn't?

After our family trip, that's definitely the case. The parents of the little boy with us will definitely be much more comfortable going a second time now that they saw what he really enjoyed and what he had a tough time with. If you think about it, Disney World -- and I suppose any big amusement park -- is a very unique place and you just can't tell how it will work until you try it.

 

[GrumpyFan]

you don't provide proof in a civil complaint. All is required is "notice" of the general issues of the case.

Got it, thanks.
Still, I would be curious what sites and videos they're referring to.

 

[Gomer]

After our family trip, that's definitely the case. The parents of the little boy with us will definitely be much more comfortable going a second time now that they saw what he really enjoyed and what he had a tough time with. If you think about it, Disney World -- and I suppose any big amusement park -- is a very unique place and you just can't tell how it will work until you try it.

That’s also true for the non-disabled as well. Everyone needs to acclimate to a new environment. Those with Autism just make that process more visible. Anyone ever started a week at WDW with a Saturday afternoon in Fantasyland and want to rip your hair out because you haven’t adapted to being within those sorts of crowds yet? I have. WDW is a crazy place to be from a real world perspective. Its loud, crowded, and it takes some time to adjust. That’s why many people who go once and only for a day or two in July may never really appreciate what the parks have to offer as a whole. They just see the chaos and never adapt to it.

It’s the same, but amplified for those with autism. And instead if grumbling and internalizing their stress. They let everyone know exactly how they are feeling.

 

[Obi]

thanks for the info. quite interesting and does raise more questions...

i can see how change can possibly cause problems. i'm curious as to how you think he would deal with new rides/shows/areas being added. like the 7dmt. is there a routine that you do to include the new things that are going on? do you prepare him for it by slowing bringing it into conversations with him, months before you go, then slowly adding pictures, videos, etc. until it's not so new as to cause a problem but new enough that he might want to try it?

 

[Edgmiller]

This is my first post! I just want to say what an incredible website!!!!!

I am a parent of an autistic child who is now in his mid teens. Our family used the GAC program and it was a complete God send. In his early years we did not know the program existed. We were standing in line, I was holding my son and without warning he attacked! I had to be quickly evacuated from the line as blood poured from my face. Yes people were staring, shocked and amazed! I was completely embarrassed since this attack happened without warning.

The great folks at Disney informed us about the GAC program. We have had no further incidents. It made our family feel normal and not to have people stare and to talk about you has you move through the line.

Fast forward, now my son is in his teens. He is a big kid 6'3" 180#s and looks completely normal. He communicates at the level of a 3.5 year old. He has matured some, but there is still that dark cloud, "what if!?" I would like to try the new program out, but I will say it does scare me a little.

I saw an earlier posting that said if autistic kids are affected by all of the stimulation sound, touch, smell, etc, why bring them to Disney? Well, my son was non verbal. He spoke his first words at Disney at age 7, and relates most things to Disney. We were told he would never speak, but Disney gives us hope and gives him motivation. Disney is truly a magical place for our family!

 

[Gomer]

thanks for the info. quite interesting and does raise more questions...

i can see how change can possibly cause problems. i'm curious as to how you think he would deal with new rides/shows/areas being added. like the 7dmt. is there a routine that you do to include the new things that are going on? do you prepare him for it by slowing bringing it into conversations with him, months before you go, then slowly adding pictures, videos, etc. until it's not so new as to cause a problem but new enough that he might want to try it?

Yes, that’s exactly what I’d do.
When its minimal change, its not that difficult.

Examples:
He loved Spectro when he was little. It was a big blow to lose that. But, I got him listening the MSEP music right away and he accepted that one gleefully when we finally saw it.

Less intrusively, I showed him videos of the Mermaid ride for about 6 months prior to his first visit to new fantasyland. And he took to that ride quickly. Its now moving up his list of favorites. I’ll likely do the same thing with 7DMT before our upcoming trip in January as well.

So, far that has worked. We showed him video of the metal detector process for TSA so there wouldn’t be issues. That worked well. Things like that.

Luckily (knock on wood) we have not had to deal with the lengthy shut down of a favorite ride yet. I fear the day Pooh is down for our visit ( or god forbid permanently closed), but if that day comes we’ll attack it the same way. Start introducing the concept into conversation as early as possible. Try to push alternativies at home that might take the sting away. My fallback in an emergency is to let him sit in front of the shuttered building and watch youtube videos of the ride.

We’ll see. He’s dealt well with one temporary closure on our trip last May. Pooh went down due to technical issues while we were about 20 people away from getting on, and he didn’t get his ride in on that visit to MK ( we never hit MK without one ride on Pooh). There were some tears, but no full meltdown which I was especially proud of. But, that wasn’t a whole trip. I’m curious to see how he would react to a full miss on a favorite ride. Not curious enough to wish for it though, I’m not crazy.

 

[WDWVolFan]

Standby riders wait. Fastpass riders wait, then wait again. DAS riders wait, then, yes, wait again albiet shorter than anyone else. Disney is accommodating the best it can under the circumstances given they parks are crowded by their very nature. Disney also cannot change things that will impinge on the other guests that are without disabilities.

My suggestion to DIsney is to have special "ambassadors" if you will, to take the persons with the most serious issues around similar to tours. This is the best I have, not perfect, but an idea. There is no doubt that those with disabilities have every right the rest of us do to go somewhere and do the same things we do.

It is a touchy subject and Disney could very well use the argument that if it gives the benefits to someone with a disability, they are discriminating against those that are not disabled. Both arguments are fair and valid.
common sense prevail should and if the CM sees a way, letting the party in, sure. But as someone posted, they cannot be expected to change the operational cadence of the parks for a specific program.

What Disney should have done was to have focus groups with people that have relatives or companions with disabilities and based on their feedback changing the process.
If they have done that and they can empirically show that their focus groups agree the new system is the best way, I don't see a judge ruling against them, IF they took the focus group approach.