As the parent of a hyperlexic (like autism in some ways) son, I agree with just about everything you've said here. My son's issues are not serious enough that we've ever used GAC and DAS, although we did consider it when he was younger.
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Families of autistic kids sue Disney parks over policy on lines
- Thread starter GrumpyFan
- Start date
As the parent of a hyperlexic (like autism in some ways) son, I agree with just about everything you've said here. My son's issues are not serious enough that we've ever used GAC and DAS, although we did consider it when he was younger.
when I have used the return times at six flags, yes you get a return time but I was always sent up the exit to be gotten on as soon as possible. so it was almost straight on. so I can see where they would be complaining about having to join a 20 minute fastpass line after waiting else where for an hour. so in that way it is different. granted my problem is standing and stairs is different.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
It is not a contradiction because the inability deals specifically with queuing and not the general concept of waiting.
This is because Disney cannot control ride availability or how people return. If you look at the initial widespread rollout of FastPass+ you will see reports of extremely long FastPass Return lines due to masses of people with FastPass+ reservations arriving simultaneously. Similar situations arise if an attraction has been down and both situations can back up this system.
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BrianLo
Well-Known Member
Here lies the ultimate crux of the problem. Are individuals unable to wait in a confined queue/space, or wait at all? Certainly the argument is being made for the later.
Disney is stuffed to the gills, and yes, one child repeat riding Snow White is not the end of the world. But when you have a low capacity ride with several autistic children riding (thinking something like Dumbo here), you have "fundamentally altered the nature" of the attraction, wherein a regular guest can no longer actually ride, as the ride is full of repeaters.
I know the term abusive gets thrown around here, and that is ultimately a charged word. But the old GAC program by its very design was "abusive" in that it actually was being utilized too well by the very guests it was designed for (not that they were abusing it). At a certain point the generous accommodations actually will impede the product for the average guest. It just wasn't sustainable to such a large scale (1 person is not a problem, but 1000 Autistic children even correctly using the old system could conceivably bring all of Fantasyland to a grinding halt for the average guest).
"Are individuals unable to wait in a confined queue/space, or wait at all? Certainly the argument is being made for the later." Yes, that was one of the recurrent themes of the suit, as well as the fact that no further accommodations are offered for those that, unlike my son, still cannot be accommodated with the new system.
I think the thing that people tend to forget, the biggest issue families of ASD kids have with the changes, is that these kids enjoyed Disney for YEARS under the old system, and the kids are used to it. For years, ASD kids did not have to wait more than ten minutes or so. Do the parks in a certain order? Fine. Ride Snow White twelve times? No problem, have a magical day. That was Disney's accommodation. Then, boom, totally different, with very little notice (especially for families like ours who JUST renewed our passes a month before the change.) Plus it seems from reading the lawsuit that no further accommodation is made for the truly severe kids. Kids who cannot take lines but who LOVE DISNEY. Introducing a major change like that to an ASD kid can be catastrophic. Plus the indisputable fact that Disney is one of the few places that many ASD kids thoroughly enjoy, every time, and that it is one of the few places that the ENTIRE family of an ASD kid can enjoy together. Disney can be truly magical for ASD kids. The change worked out for our family, but if it hadn't, I would be completely heartbroken over the loss.
I am also wondering why Disney does not simply use the Magic Bands for GAC-like accommodations without making families run back and forth all over the parks and bringing ASD kids up to a ride only to leave again without riding. At this point with the ubiquitous use of Magic Bands it does almost seem that Disney is TRYING to make it more difficult so that people will just give up. And I frequently take my kids alone, so having a "DAS runner" is not an option.
So I guess I just have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I am not one to be sue-happy, and I hate any kind of "entitlement mentality", but I do think there are some valid points brought out in this suit. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I think the thing that people tend to forget, the biggest issue families of ASD kids have with the changes, is that these kids enjoyed Disney for YEARS under the old system, and the kids are used to it. For years, ASD kids did not have to wait more than ten minutes or so. Do the parks in a certain order? Fine. Ride Snow White twelve times? No problem, have a magical day. That was Disney's accommodation. Then, boom, totally different, with very little notice (especially for families like ours who JUST renewed our passes a month before the change.) Plus it seems from reading the lawsuit that no further accommodation is made for the truly severe kids. Kids who cannot take lines but who LOVE DISNEY. Introducing a major change like that to an ASD kid can be catastrophic. Plus the indisputable fact that Disney is one of the few places that many ASD kids thoroughly enjoy, every time, and that it is one of the few places that the ENTIRE family of an ASD kid can enjoy together. Disney can be truly magical for ASD kids. The change worked out for our family, but if it hadn't, I would be completely heartbroken over the loss.
I am also wondering why Disney does not simply use the Magic Bands for GAC-like accommodations without making families run back and forth all over the parks and bringing ASD kids up to a ride only to leave again without riding. At this point with the ubiquitous use of Magic Bands it does almost seem that Disney is TRYING to make it more difficult so that people will just give up. And I frequently take my kids alone, so having a "DAS runner" is not an option.
So I guess I just have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I am not one to be sue-happy, and I hate any kind of "entitlement mentality", but I do think there are some valid points brought out in this suit. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The actual rules of the previous system were never supposed to allow what happened in practice. If you look at the card it says it was not supposed to be used for immediate access. I know it is a slippery slope argument, but I do wonder where the line is in terms of Disney being allowed to make changes. Would not closing a favorite attraction, either temporarily or permanently, be a major change that could have a strong impact? And which would be worse, having to wait elsewhere or, as was apparently starting to become an issue at Disneyland, continued growth in use that would create the very sort of queues that need to be avoided?
Disney only pushed forward with the system changes following the negative press. MyMagic+ has been a headache already and I would bet that Disney never planned to incorporate such a system. At the very least Walt Disney World should adopt the kiosk system that is in place at Disneyland, especially since there are already similar stations established for FastPass+.
Mouse_Trap
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the summary, but I wouldn't agree that they make valid points, my reasons for this below.
To me it just seems they are upset that their unlimited fastpasses were taken away and they are going to do anything to get them back.
I just can't see how this lawsuit is going to go anywhere at all, I can't see any part of DAS that isn't ADA compliant. Sure, its not as generous as GAC, but even the terms for this weren't originally to provide unlimited fastpass.
I would however agree with the previous poster, that the rapid introduction of the changes and the significant differences offered by it may be problematic for some families, certainly it is a major shock for many by not having what they are accustomed to.
1.
....the rent issue just highlighted the abuse of the program into the mainstream,2. If that such an issue that they need to file a lawsuit then they really do have too much time on their hands. Maybe the reason behind the change is to differentiate it from the previous scheme and to emphasise it's to help the disabled access the attractions rather than the wider term of assisting all guests.
3. Don't many of proof of entitlement cards require a photograph? Like those for disabled parking spaces? Don't see an issue here, it your genuine then surely it is in your interest to reduce fraud?
4. I really wouldn't read anything into that. I wouldn't even consider than an issue to be honest and probably is only spotted by those looking for faults with the scheme.
5. A fair point, but with a bad analogy. Showing them the plate of food and then telling them they can have it in 30 minutes would have been more accurate.
6. Potentially could have been worded better. But the waiting means in-line, not waiting whilst experiencing the rest of the park so not really a contradiction.
7. I guess this is to cover their backs on rides where the guest much wait for a specific ride vehicle e.g. TSMM. It was always possible that someone requiring such vehicle to wait longer than the regular line under the previous scheme as there are a limited amount of vehicles and it's unknown the demand for them at any given times.
8. The purpose of the scheme is not to decrease your waiting time, but to save you from having to wait in-line.
9. The one makes me quite mad with the plaintiff. Whilst I really do symphathise with any parents who have kids with such disabilities, the ADA is not about giving them immediate/unlimited fulfilment. It is about giving them as close to an equal access to an attraction (in this case) as a non-disabled person. A non-disabled person cannot re-ride their favourite attraction over and over. Therefore this is out of scope for the ADA as it does not require concessions to be made to provide a service that does not exist for non-disabled persons.
To my view at least, DAS seems to provide perfectly reasonable adjustments to allow guest with disabilities equal access to the attractions. I would content that they probably do need to do something about going up to the ride entrance in order to get a return time. One central point in each land would certainly address this. Allowing the next ride to be added anywhere or via a terminal would not really be fair, as this fails to account for the time needed to walk to that next attraction before the queuing begins for the able bodied guest.
Victor Kelly
Well-Known Member
Standby riders wait. Fastpass riders wait, then wait again. DAS riders wait, then, yes, wait again albiet shorter than anyone else. Disney is accommodating the best it can under the circumstances given they parks are crowded by their very nature. Disney also cannot change things that will impinge on the other guests that are without disabilities.
My suggestion to DIsney is to have special "ambassadors" if you will, to take the persons with the most serious issues around similar to tours. This is the best I have, not perfect, but an idea. There is no doubt that those with disabilities have every right the rest of us do to go somewhere and do the same things we do.
My suggestion to DIsney is to have special "ambassadors" if you will, to take the persons with the most serious issues around similar to tours. This is the best I have, not perfect, but an idea. There is no doubt that those with disabilities have every right the rest of us do to go somewhere and do the same things we do.
Goofnut1980
Well-Known Member
I am going to say the way I look at the subject. I know we all have our opinions and there is no reason for anyone to get offended. Free Speech.
People say but my child can't wait in line, or handle confined spaces. One question. How did you get to Disney? Car, Plane or Bus. All which make you stay in one place for an extended amount of time and even be in a small space. A queue is not a small space. If we are discussing the child having a severe disability issue, Why are you at the busiest place on earth torturing your child? Don't you think you are being selfish and you have no idea the effect this is having on your child. My autistic cousin doesn't speak and you can tell how he behaves if there is too much going on around us and we immediately change the environment for him. Disney is not a place for him.
For the ones that complain because they have a bad part of their body, why are you riding attractions? There are warnings on the attractions for a reason.
For the person that feels DAS is unfair because they are allergic to the sun. hello, it's florida, full of sun! (I was behind someone in line that said that once and she had on a tank top)
I feel this DAS is more than accommodating. It is not fair to everyone else that some people can skip all the lines they want and not have to wait. It is not unreasonable to give someone a return time so there is little or no wait. It is not fair that someone with the old GAC could skip lines and ride three times the attractions of a standard guest. We all paid to get into the parks and at that point the standard guest was being treated unfairly. jmo
People say but my child can't wait in line, or handle confined spaces. One question. How did you get to Disney? Car, Plane or Bus. All which make you stay in one place for an extended amount of time and even be in a small space. A queue is not a small space. If we are discussing the child having a severe disability issue, Why are you at the busiest place on earth torturing your child? Don't you think you are being selfish and you have no idea the effect this is having on your child. My autistic cousin doesn't speak and you can tell how he behaves if there is too much going on around us and we immediately change the environment for him. Disney is not a place for him.
For the ones that complain because they have a bad part of their body, why are you riding attractions? There are warnings on the attractions for a reason.
For the person that feels DAS is unfair because they are allergic to the sun. hello, it's florida, full of sun! (I was behind someone in line that said that once and she had on a tank top)
I feel this DAS is more than accommodating. It is not fair to everyone else that some people can skip all the lines they want and not have to wait. It is not unreasonable to give someone a return time so there is little or no wait. It is not fair that someone with the old GAC could skip lines and ride three times the attractions of a standard guest. We all paid to get into the parks and at that point the standard guest was being treated unfairly. jmo
Goofnut1980
Well-Known Member
Best statements ever and perfect summary! People don't understand what the ADA really means. You hit the nail on the head with this.
ThemeParkJunkee
Well-Known Member
I really do have mixed feelings about this. The term "reasonable" appears everywhere in the applicable law but is not well defined. The same system used by Disney, is used by numerous amusement/theme parks across the country without legal challenge.
Once upon a time, I brought my son, then age nine to WDW. He had a number of diagnoses but I was unaware of the GAC or anything like it at the time. He is the type who must have a predictable, planned approach to everything he does. I did massive research on every aspect of the parks and planned each day practically down to the minute. Menus at every counter service restaurant were printed off and what we ate, planned in advance so no "decisions" had to be made. When I think about it, neither GAC or DAS would have helped me much.
I am a tax accountant and have to ask each and every client if they are "disabled". It's a box on your tax form. Each dependent has to have that information included as well. Apparently the US government considers the word "disabled" to be the correct descriptor. If the word is on your tax return, or photo on file for your handicapped plates or whatever else, why is it unacceptable to appear on the DAS?
I think Disney is doing its best to help these children out without overburdening the parks and their operations. As in my case, sometimes, there is no way to accommodate every single unique condition that comes with the Spectrum.
Once upon a time, I brought my son, then age nine to WDW. He had a number of diagnoses but I was unaware of the GAC or anything like it at the time. He is the type who must have a predictable, planned approach to everything he does. I did massive research on every aspect of the parks and planned each day practically down to the minute. Menus at every counter service restaurant were printed off and what we ate, planned in advance so no "decisions" had to be made. When I think about it, neither GAC or DAS would have helped me much.
I am a tax accountant and have to ask each and every client if they are "disabled". It's a box on your tax form. Each dependent has to have that information included as well. Apparently the US government considers the word "disabled" to be the correct descriptor. If the word is on your tax return, or photo on file for your handicapped plates or whatever else, why is it unacceptable to appear on the DAS?
I think Disney is doing its best to help these children out without overburdening the parks and their operations. As in my case, sometimes, there is no way to accommodate every single unique condition that comes with the Spectrum.
No Time To Say Hello Goodbye
Member
Some really interesting points. I can understand that the change would be upsetting, especially to people used to routine. However, I wonder if Disney could make the counter arguments that wait times in general have increased in the past 20 years due to increased attendance? (And by the way, I am actually wondering this since I have no idea what attendance numbers are now or were 10 years ago- I am thinking Disney doesn't publish this info but could be totally mistaken.)
Good point too about the magic bands being able to be used to assist with the DAS. Since it is taking Disney so long to totally roll this out with all features (such as just now available for all guests, no park hopping yet, etc.) I wonder if they maybe thought of this for the future but simply have to wait for the IT stuff to be ready? I think the magic bands seem like they would easily be able to do something like this......eventually. Someone else mentioned a kiosk set up instead of going to the ride- maybe for now they could uses the FPP kiosks to do this for any ride in their land? The CMs at the kiosks already have iPads, so should be able to look up the posted wait time or any ride and could fill out the card there.
Since you have very little idea on what the issue is , I would suggest 2 courses of action, 1 either read up on autism, or 2 don't post about something you don't know much about.
We used a GAC for our son for 10 years and it was a great help, the DAS has been an adjustment but as others have said combined with FP+ it is workable. Our son is older now and much more easy going and less rigid so the timing was certainly fortuitous.
The lawsuit has one good point, and it has been echoed by many, the requirement to go to the ride is a pain, it would be much easier if you could use the Disney app or at least get it signed at the FP+ stations.
Tying it to magicbands and the Disney App would be a huge help and eliminate some of the concerns about the picture etc.
DManRightHere
Well-Known Member
I agree with all except the highlighted above. Kind of sounds like Disney is changing law as see. I don't think this is the case. The law just says reasonable accommodation, correct? I guess they Disney could say their old system was too lenient and was being taken advantaged of.
G00fyDad
Well-Known Member
Okay, I am going to ask a question here that comes from a place of ignorance on Autism so don't thrash me for asking. Doesn't a person with Autism have trouble with lots of lights, sounds, and other sensory stimuli? Why would anyone risk taking someone with Autism to something like Disney World or Disneyland?
Goofnut1980
Well-Known Member
Couldn't have said it better myself! That's why my autistic cousin has not been to Disney. Lights, sounds and volumes of guests would stress him out.
It is not a "one size fits all" diagnosis. There are a multitude of triggers, and some may be bothered by loud noises, etc while others may not.
It's as if saying everyone with cancer has the same prognosis and needs the same type of treatment. Autism is another broad diagnosis that covers a variety of conditions.
Gomer
Well-Known Member
I’ve been through this more in depth in past threads, so I’ll do a quick version here.
Autism isn’t about being afraid or repulsed by sensory input. Its more like an exposed nerve. There is no filter for that sensory input. If the sensory input is welcome and the feelings are good, then those with autism can find a level of joy out of that sensory input that those of us without will never be able to experience. The sheer exhilaration on my son’s face when he is "in the zone", is something I am truly jealous of. It’s a true emphatic joy for the stimuli he is receiving. The flip side, is he can’t shut it out. When it goes bad, when the input is unwelcome or something unpleasant, there is no suffering through it. It is like salt in a wound.
Those with autism that have a better time with that sensory input and more frequently enjoy it than not are called sensory seekers. Those who have more issues with it are called sensory sensitive. My son is a sensory seeker now, so WDW is a dream to him. But there are times when it gets too much and he will shut down and be inconsolable. But, the good times outweigh the bad (more and more as he gets older) so the bad is worth it for the good. Each person with autism will be an individual, and it is up to them and their parents to decide whether WDW works for them. As I have explained in depth in the past, we had a sensory sensitive child who came alive because of the over stimulation in the parks, so we used that to help him become more of a sensory seeker by using WDW as a therapy. It has worked wonders for him, and has helped him become far more capable of dealing with those stresses in everyday life. He still has his moments, but WDW has helped them become far less frequent.
So, to answer your question. Why would I risk bringing my son, to WDW? Because the reward is worth it. Not all tantrums are bad. Not all dissapointments, breakdowns, and crying fits, are a pure evil. We learn from them and grow. So, suffering through those early, have made him able to enjoy his favorite place in the world. He grew from those experiences, and can now enjoy WDW with limited break downs, and with now very limited use of DAS/GAC.
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