News EPCOT's Harmonious to be replaced with new nighttime spectacular Luminous

[Disgruntled Walt]

When do you think they started failing the vision of EPCOT? When they started adding IP or changed the concept from a city to a theme park?

I'll reiterate what I said in this thread a couple months ago. Epcot started to fail when it ceased to be about innovation and showcasing cultures.

I agree with a lot of the posts here, but it's a tough question.

I think the simple answer is that EPCOT itself doesn't really have an identity right now. It doesn't know what it is. It's a celebration of world cultures, of nature, of discovery, and of, um, celebrations (all with Disney IP integrated into it)? Aside from the "celebration of 'celebrations'", I think I would applaud them if they were building a new theme park based around these ideas. For the purposes of this post, let's pretend they actually built a theme park from scratch based on World Cultures, Nature, and Discovery. We'll call it "Disney Destiny Park" (just made that up, doesn't matter what you call it).

EPCOT had an identity and a purpose back in the 1980s and 90s that doesn't fit in well with the theme park expectation of today. It wasn't your typical theme park. There were no thrill rides until Maelstrom (thrills debatable) and Body Wars. But EPCOT still thrilled people with the tech/countries/optimism. But as the theme park industry expanded in Florida, EPCOT became the boring park. So it changed, and I understand why.

But it's just hard to watch it change from a very good not-really-a-theme-park park to a lame version of "Disney Destiny Park" as I laid out earlier.

So what is it? Something that can't really be fixed. To really do what they're trying to do, they'd have to bulldoze the whole thing. I don't want them to do that, and neither do they, so instead we get whatever this is: Remnants of what was once the most unique theme park experience in the world, with glimpses of a cool concept for a modern theme park that can never be fully realized.

 

[monothingie]

Harmonious was technologically groundbreaking.

If by groundbreaking you mean they needed to add reinforcement to support pilings to avoid the ground from breaking then you would be correct.

 

[monothingie]

Like I said before, some of the people on this forum do nothing but complain like it's a full time job. Their lives are filled with unsubstantiated bitterness, anger, and they throw childish tantrums because a multi-billion dollar company isn't kowtowing to their exact personal preferences. The best thing you can do is mute them, this forum is a much more enjoyable when you silence the noise. Don't let them rain on your parade of excitement for Luminous. While they sit chronically online and lament for the days of yore, the rest of us will enjoy what we're being offered.

I’d bet I can find something similar said along those lines in the Harmonious thread before it debuted.

Harmonious didn’t even make it 2 years.

So either the majority of guests are haters and trolls…or maybe some of us have a better perception of what is wrong with the product Disney is producing and what they need to do to fix it.

 

[Vinnie Mac]

50/50 that this makes it 18 months before Epcot Forever comes back.

Hilariously false

 

[OSUPhantom]

Anyone else think there are more people complaining about complainers than actual complainers?

Not even close

 

[monothingie]

Hilariously false

H! was Chapek's baby. For what it cost, it was easily supposed to have a more than an 18 month lifespan.

Luminous is just H! lite minus the expensive armada of hardware permanently moored in the lagoon.

We already know that the show was dramatically scaled back from leaked ideas during development to appease the operations people and bean counters, so why should we expect yet another IP Driven generic show featuring the same content and structure that you already get at the MK to be any different.

There is nothing original or creative about it. It's been done before, repeatedly. They had an opportunity to take the majestic World Showcase and use it as a backdrop for something creative and wonderful. But Bob Iger doesn't want creativity, he wants corporate synergy, so we are going to get a 16 minute show with 2 minutes of originality and 14 minutes of brand synergy delivering product to "eager guests consumers".

 

[JD80]

H! was Chapek's baby. For what it cost, it was easily supposed to have a more than an 18 month lifespan.

Luminous is just H! lite minus the expensive armada of hardware permanently moored in the lagoon.

We already know that the show was dramatically scaled back from leaked ideas during development to appease the operations people and bean counters, so why should we expect yet another IP Driven generic show featuring the same content and structure that you already get at the MK to be any different.

There is nothing original or creative about it. It's been done before, repeatedly. They had an opportunity to take the majestic World Showcase and use it as a backdrop for something creative and wonderful. But Bob Iger doesn't want creativity, he wants corporate synergy, so we are going to get a 16 minute show with 2 minutes of originality and 14 minutes of brand synergy delivering product to "eager guests consumers".

Yet here you are spending every day logging in to a fan forum to whine about things you don't know anything about. I guess we all have to have hobbies.

 

[monothingie]

So many who continue to be absolutely, almost irrationally obsessed with No IP in the parks, at this point are now just making a choice to be unhappy about everything Disney does, even before they see it. The Pre-Hate that boils over things they have not experienced or every time they hear or see anything that isn’t totally new and never before seen or heard is kind of ridiculous at this point. It’s a choice to be unhappy, not a critique.

Disney has made it very clear they consider their IP to be a valuable asset that they will continue to use in the parks, just as the company has done since 1955. The obsession some have here that nothing should be built that is linked to any sort of existing IP isn’t going to change that. A massively larger number of visitors (who are not posting in this bubble) very much enjoy and look forward to those tie-ins to familiar characters and places and Disney rightly chooses to capitalize on that when they can find a way that makes sense to the designers in the park.

It’s totally fine to not be a fan of some specific experience after you’ve actually experienced it, but the pre-hate is kind sad at this point.

There's a lot more nuance to this than you present. Your blanket statements castigating anyone who disagrees with IP placement in any park as being "irrationally obsessed" are factually wrong. Simply describing everyone who disagrees with your perspective as being haters is either you not understanding the issue or just being intellectually lazy (or both)in understanding the view of people with different mindsets from yourself.

The biggest complaint people have had with IP has been with its placement and almost unnecessary shoehorning in of it into virtually everything under directives from current leadership. Very few people have issues with IP at the MK, or DHS because IP is almost never appears like it is forced into these locations. People may have different thoughts about the type and quality of IP in these parks, but it's almost never been said that there is too much IP in the MK or DHS.

Where the "haters" have problems is when the creative choices made by imagineers are overridden or dictated by corporate executives who only care about brand synergy, or where their placement clashes with the original intent or vision of Imagineers looking to create something special within EPCOT or DAK. Looking at the history and development of places like EPCOT or DAK, the IP was never meant to be the primary focus. It was just there laying in the background to help support and make the carefully crafted vision imagineers had relatable to guests. It was done subtly and thoughtfully to enhance, not clash with what had been created. New leadership doesn't like that. So instead of a carefully crafted story being told, you have a jumbled mess of different and disjointed pieces often clashing with each other. The former Future World of EPCOT is just that place.

With regards to Luminous, we've already seen this show before. It's the same copy/paste formula for a generic Disney Nighttime show with slightly different IP based songs, coupled with mostly the same pyro and special effects as what preceded it. There was no thought to do something "new". That's why you perceive the "pre-hate". Perhaps you should want to expect better from a company that purportedly claims to be full of "story tellers".

 

[monothingie]

Yet here you are spending every day logging in to a fan forum to whine about things you don't know anything about. I guess we all have to have hobbies.

Yet here you are responding to me. We are having what is called a discussion. If that is too complicated for you, I can point you in the direction of another site with all the affirming pixie dust your heart desires.

Since you mentioned it. You are more than welcome to become a "Premium Member" and support this site like how myself and many others have done. Your contribution is most likely greatly appreciated!

 

[mikejs78]

With regards to Luminous, we've already seen this show before. It's the same copy/paste formula for a generic Disney Nighttime show with slightly different IP based songs, coupled with mostly the same pyro and special effects as what preceded it.

I didn't realize you had seen the show yet! Otherwise how could you know this?

 

[doctornick]

I’d bet I can find something similar said along those lines in the Harmonious thread before it debuted.

Harmonious didn’t even make it 2 years.

So either the majority of guests are haters and trolls…or maybe some of us have a better perception of what is wrong with the product Disney is producing and what they need to do to fix it.

Harmonious didn't make it because of the horrible lagoon views due to the hardware and because the viewing angles were subpar for much of the audience. Which is why they had to build and dispatch new hardware.

The reaction to the content of Harmonious was more mixed and it would likely still be ongoing if it weren't more the bigger issues due to the hardware.

 

[wdwmagic]

Harmonious didn't make it because of the horrible lagoon views due to the hardware and because the viewing angles were subpar for much of the audience. Which is why they had to build and dispatch new hardware.

and its extremely labor (and cost) intensive maintenance requirements.

 

[monothingie]

Harmonious didn't make it because of the horrible lagoon views due to the hardware and because the viewing angles were subpar for much of the audience. Which is why they had to build and dispatch new hardware.

The reaction to the content of Harmonious was more mixed and it would likely still be ongoing if it weren't more the bigger issues due to the hardware.

There were postings in the H! thread about surveys done which indicated that the show only was above water with the <18 YO age group. While I'm sure views contributed to negative response, there were other problems with the show that went beyond the infrastructure placement and "presence".

 

[Vinnie Mac]

H! was Chapek's baby. For what it cost, it was easily supposed to have a more than an 18 month lifespan.

Luminous is just H! lite minus the expensive armada of hardware permanently moored in the lagoon.

We already know that the show was dramatically scaled back from leaked ideas during development to appease the operations people and bean counters, so why should we expect yet another IP Driven generic show featuring the same content and structure that you already get at the MK to be any different.

There is nothing original or creative about it. It's been done before, repeatedly. They had an opportunity to take the majestic World Showcase and use it as a backdrop for something creative and wonderful. But Bob Iger doesn't want creativity, he wants corporate synergy, so we are going to get a 16 minute show with 2 minutes of originality and 14 minutes of brand synergy delivering product to "eager guests consumers".

One of the two major reasons Harmonious went away isn't even relevant to this show

 

[JD80]

Yet here you are responding to me. We are having what is called a discussion. If that is too complicated for you, I can point you in the direction of another site with all the affirming pixie dust your heart desires.

Since you mentioned it. You are more than welcome to become a "Premium Member" and support this site like how myself and many others have done. Your contribution is most likely greatly appreciated!

The way you write is stating opinion as fact about a show that the public hasn't seen and leaves very little room for discussion.

Luminous is just H! lite minus the expensive armada of hardware permanently moored in the lagoon.

We already know that the show was dramatically scaled back from leaked ideas during development to appease the operations people and bean counters, so why should we expect yet another IP Driven generic show featuring the same content and structure that you already get at the MK to be any different.

There is nothing original or creative about it. It's been done before, repeatedly. They had an opportunity to take the majestic World Showcase and use it as a backdrop for something creative and wonderful. But Bob Iger doesn't want creativity, he wants corporate synergy, so we are going to get a 16 minute show with 2 minutes of originality and 14 minutes of brand synergy delivering product to "eager guests consumers".

Everything in red is an opinion or conjecture but you are stating as fact. You are not saying "I believe.." or "I think.." or "In my opinion.." which leaves room for others to retort. So if you truly want discussion instead of saying just screaming pixie duster at anyone who calls you out, perhaps moderate your tone and use words that both respect the reader and potential users that want to join the discussion.

 

[mattpeto]

There were postings in the H! thread about surveys done which indicated that the show only was above water with the <18 YO age group. While I'm sure views contributed to negative response, there were other problems with the show that went beyond the infrastructure placement and "presence".

Every nighttime show goes through modifications. Harmonious didn't get a 2nd chance because the tech was fixed and an eyesore during the day. The flopped daytime fountains doomed the longevity of the show. They clearly could have edited Harmonious to integrate more Epcot theme and less IP for your taste. Sure there were other issues (show content, beverage sales, maintenance) - but all of it was fixable except the ugly infrastructure loomed in the lagoon all day. Harmonious did better than your beloved RoE with younger age groups. That's not an opinion.

If you want to throw Premium Member creds around here, I was also the first person (that I know of) that thought Harmonious wouldn't survive 2023 because of the barges. I say many stupid things on my podcast, but I got the one right for a change.

For you to say Luminous won't survive 18 months without even seeing what the fans think is pretty absurd. You made up your mind because of IP and that's that.

 

[monothingie]

The way you write is stating opinion as fact about a show that the public hasn't seen and leaves very little room for discussion.



Everything in red is an opinion or conjecture but you are stating as fact. You are not saying "I believe.." or "I think.." or "In my opinion.." which leaves room for others to retort. So if you truly want discussion instead of saying just screaming pixie duster at anyone who calls you out, perhaps moderate your tone and use words that both respect the reader and potential users that want to join the discussion.

It was reported by insiders that Luminous is very similar to H! Its infrastructure is smaller and cheaper what was implemented in H!. (Fact)

The Show was scaled back. (Fact). Again insiders have repeated that there have from conceptualization to execution, the show has been scaled back significantly. This was likely attributed to the crazy operational costs that H! had that they did not want to continue.

IP Driven Generic Show. It is the same repeated structure for integrating IP similar to what HEA, Enchantment, H! and others have done. It follows the same format as H!, HEA, and Enchament by sandwiching IP based content between one or two original scores/songs.

In all honesty you've just been attacking me, rather than defending what is being put out by Disney. Perhaps you should set higher standards for yourself.

 

[THEMEPARKPIONEER]

50/50 that this makes it 18 months before Epcot Forever comes back.

No need for Epcot Forever with this setup. I have a feeling we’ll be seeing Reflections of Earth again upgraded wither if this show flops which I don’t think it will, maybe change the music or as a seasonal or limited swap out here and there with the new hardware a few years from now. It would only make sense knowing the money it would bring in.

 

[bmr1591]

H! was Chapek's baby. For what it cost, it was easily supposed to have a more than an 18 month lifespan.

Luminous is just H! lite minus the expensive armada of hardware permanently moored in the lagoon.

We already know that the show was dramatically scaled back from leaked ideas during development to appease the operations people and bean counters, so why should we expect yet another IP Driven generic show featuring the same content and structure that you already get at the MK to be any different.

There is nothing original or creative about it. It's been done before, repeatedly. They had an opportunity to take the majestic World Showcase and use it as a backdrop for something creative and wonderful. But Bob Iger doesn't want creativity, he wants corporate synergy, so we are going to get a 16 minute show with 2 minutes of originality and 14 minutes of brand synergy delivering product to "eager guests consumers".

You haven't seen the show. You're choosing to be angry over something you haven't even experienced. Take a chill pill and wait until December 5th.

 

[jrhwdw]

No need for Epcot Forever with this setup. I have a feeling we’ll be seeing Reflections of Earth again upgraded wither if this show flops which I don’t think it will, maybe change the music or as a seasonal or limited swap out here and there with the new hardware a few years from now. It would only make sense knowing the money it would bring in.

Makes sense, but it would be nice to know that EF really isn't needed anymore. That would mean Epcot did the right thing with Luminous. And nothing in TWDC better hurt Luminous!!!!