EPCOT: Is it really what Walt Dreamed?

[jtizzle1023]

I was thinking that epcot never really seemed to turn out how walt invisioned it at first. It has future world which is kind of a more realistic version of tomorrowland and World showcase is kind of just a worlds fair. I love the park but I almost would love to see something like the house of the future but on a much larger scare. Almost like how walts model in the TTA shows.... Just a thought I had.

 

[WDW Monorail]

While I am an enormous fan of tday's EPCOT, I do not like Walt's plan for it. I'm grateful it was not exectued as he wanted.

 

[MissM]

Of course not! In fact, the entire "Florida Project" was centered around EPCOT the city. The theme park was a small afterthought on the plans. Even reading through newspaper and magazine articles from the time (see "Florida's Disney World: Promises and Problems") most of the country truly looked to Walt's new city as the ultimate hope for the survival of the urban lifestyle.

The plans were massive; the ambitions impossible for anyone not Walt Disney. In the end, turning it into a theme park is, honestly, a bit insulting truly to the scale it promised. But, once Walt died, no one else would have been as crazy/ambitious as him to be able to pull it off. I know many of those who morphed Epcot into what it became did so in a tribute to Walt and his love of the "World's Fair" and such, but personally, while I like Epcot in general, I think it's kinda sad it was named Epcot. The dream was so big that the reality is a little insulting to his legacy, in my opinion.

 

[Timekeeper]

Some suggest that Celebration is at least closer to Walt's original concept of EPCOT than Epcot the theme park. :shrug:

If anything, it would be more appropriate to switch the name designations, as Epcot (the theme park) is really more of a "Celebration" of the world (recall Epcot's Millennium Celebration], and Celebration is really more of what EPCOT was intended to be. Obviously, it's too late now.

 

[BrerFrog]

Some suggest that Celebration is at least closer to Walt's original concept of EPCOT than Epcot the theme park. :shrug:

I agree with that. Walt's original concept was extremely ambitous - as pretty much were all projects he created during his career. But EPCOT was certainly the most expensive and biggest of them all. God only knows if he would really be able to build that place if he lived for another decade or so. Considering how much of his time was devoted towards projecting it, I think he would find a way to do it.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I was thinking that epcot never really seemed to turn out how walt invisioned it at first. It has future world which is kind of a more realistic version of tomorrowland and World showcase is kind of just a worlds fair. I love the park but I almost would love to see something like the house of the future but on a much larger scare. Almost like how walts model in the TTA shows.... Just a thought I had.

I've thought of this very same thing several times. The Epcot that exists bares little to no resemblance to what Walt had envisioned.

While I am an enormous fan of tday's EPCOT, I do not like Walt's plan for it. I'm grateful it was not exectued as he wanted.

I love our current Epcot as much as anyone but I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm glad Walt's vision wasn't brought to fruition. I think Walt's city of tomorrow would've been astounding, interesting, and somewhere I would like to have had the option of being a resident.

Of course not! In fact, the entire "Florida Project" was centered around EPCOT the city. The theme park was a small afterthought on the plans. Even reading through newspaper and magazine articles from the time (see "Florida's Disney World: Promises and Problems") most of the country truly looked to Walt's new city as the ultimate hope for the survival of the urban lifestyle.

The plans were massive; the ambitions impossible for anyone not Walt Disney. In the end, turning it into a theme park is, honestly, a bit insulting truly to the scale it promised. But, once Walt died, no one else would have been as crazy/ambitious as him to be able to pull it off. I know many of those who morphed Epcot into what it became did so in a tribute to Walt and his love of the "World's Fair" and such, but personally, while I like Epcot in general, I think it's kinda sad it was named Epcot. The dream was so big that the reality is a little insulting to his legacy, in my opinion.

Very well said. Amen. I totally agree 100% with everything you stated. The times I've given this subject thought my mind ended up where your response did: on many levels what exists as "Epcot" is more an insult to the ingenious, ground-breaking legacy that Walt's vision truly was.

Some suggest that Celebration is at least closer to Walt's original concept of EPCOT than Epcot the theme park. :shrug:

If anything, it would be more appropriate to switch the name designations, as Epcot (the theme park) is really more of a "Celebration" of the world (recall Epcot's Millennium Celebration], and Celebration is really more of what EPCOT was intended to be. Obviously, it's too late now.

I've never physically been to Celebration but I see that project as something that followed closely what Walt's ideals may have been in his inspiration for his Epcot. The styling that Celebration has, however, gives me a feeling more like an old-fashioned, traditional community of yesterday than a futuristic community of tomorrow. Does that make sense? Your logic is good food for thought, tho. Very interesting.


My thoughts:

The Epcot that is is not the Epcot of Walt's vision. Walt envisioned a community, not a park. The parks were the necessary evil to fund Walt's dream of creating the ideal community of the future. His head & heart were definitely in the right place. I do think he would've liked the park that (perhaps wrongfully) inherited the name of his vision. I don't think he would like that it's been given that name, tho. I also think Walt would've very much liked Celebration. That's what I find so inspirational about that man: he believed in his idealistic dreams. If more of us had that gift...and didn't just accept the less-than-stellar world that we've been handed...golly...imagine how incredible, how much better quality our world could be!

 

[MarkTwain]

While I am an enormous fan of tday's EPCOT, I do not like Walt's plan for it. I'm grateful it was not exectued as he wanted.

I'm an aspiring urban planner... and I agree with this. :lookaroun

The idea of EPCOT City (what I call it) was tremendously ambitious. Of course, many of Walt's projects were ambitious (Fantasia, Disneyland, Sleeping Beauty) but EPCOT City would have taken that same riskiness to a whole new scale. If Disneyland had failed, Walt Disney Productions could have eventually picked up business. When Fantasia and Sleeping Beauty failed at the box office, Disney recovered. Considering the HUGE scale and amount of construction that would have had gone into EPCOT City, there would be little chance of the company recovering in the case of failure... especially if Walt were no longer at the helm.

And the risk of failure was much higher. An urban planning professor explained this to me... a city is not like Disneyland, and the rules of Disneyland cannot be applied to a city, as much as Walt would have tried to make it so. There is no way any person could have applied the amount of control a place like the Disney parks to an entire city, and all of the people living there. Slummier districts, or at the very least, "less desirable" districts would have formed, pollution/littering would inevitably happen, and buildings would go vacant for extended periods of time (Heck, we have this in Downtown Disney now). Cities rise, cities stabilize, and many fall. And considering how much control of EPCOT would have been delegated to its citizens rather than Walt Disney, there's no telling what would happen.

Would Walt have made it work? Maybe, I don't know. He had a way of making many surprising things work in his lifetime... but then, he had his failures, too. Roy E. Disney once said that a company suffers when the people that run it stray too far from what made it great. For Disney, that's animation, an art form from which thematic design and theme-park operation is not too far off the parh. But urban planning and operation goes well beyond what Disney was originally all about.

In my opinion, what Disney did with EPCOT Center in 1982 was the best thing they could have done to honor Walt Disney's original vision. No, it wasn't what Walt planned or envisioned, but it did capture the spirit of what he did: his futurism, his optimism, his desire for a greater humanity and appreciation of global cultures, but at the same time made it much more compact, marketable, and easier to control. Theme park design was also something much more up Disney's alley. I think if Walt were to live past 1966 and exercise greater control over the Florida Project, then things would have turned out very differently. But of course, that didn't happen, and Disney did what they knew best how to feasibly do without their fearless leader. I don't think anyone could criticize EPCOT Center of 1982 for its lack of ambition, and I think if Walt were alive, it would have earned his approval.

...

Sorry for the essay, I've been thinking about this for a while. :lol:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I do think he would've liked the park that (perhaps wrongfully) inherited the name of his vision. I don't think he would like that it's been given that name, tho.

I agree. For me, Epcot is a very inspirational place with lofty ideals, but it's not really a worthy successor to the original EPCOT idea. I don't think any theme park could really live up to the original EPCOT, just by definition.

EPCOT City was supposed to be about putting the best ideas to use in everyday life. Epcot today can inspire you for a few hours, but it's hard to say it actually accomplishes anything concrete.

That's not a criticism, because Epcot probably does about as much as any theme park with a focus on mainstream families can be expected to do in broadening minds and spreading serious ideas. And that's the point. No theme park can come close to achieving what EPCOT City wanted to.

However, if Epcot is an insult to EPCOT, I think it's a well-intentioned insult. I appreciate it for what it is while recognizing what it isn't.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Roy E. Disney once said that a company suffers when the people that run it stray too far from what made it great. For Disney, that's animation, an art form from which thematic design and theme-park operation is not too far off the path. But urban planning and operation goes well beyond what Disney was originally all about.

Totally agree with this. I think Walt might have been entering a utopian thinking phase before he died. You sometimes see it happen that someone who has done very well in a particular business venture starts trying to solve The Big Problems later in life...generally with much less success than they've been accustomed to.

From a curiosity standpoint, I would like to know what would have happened with Walt's urban planning vision. But I suspect it would not have been very successful. I've said it before, but his early death might have saved his legacy. As it is, we have a beautiful vision that can never be proven a failure, since "only Walt" could have made it work anyway...and we have a youthful, bright-eyed optimist who can never be proven wrong.

That's a much better source of inspiration for the Disney brand and a much better subject for fawning films than a world weary, embittered old man would be.

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

I was thinking that epcot never really seemed to turn out how walt invisioned it at first. It has future world which is kind of a more realistic version of tomorrowland and World showcase is kind of just a worlds fair. I love the park but I almost would love to see something like the house of the future but on a much larger scare. Almost like how walts model in the TTA shows.... Just a thought I had.

Well if EPCOT would have been built as the city that Walt had planned the "House of the Future" would be a less than futuristic design of what people expected in the late 1960ies to be futuristic. The entire city would look like Future World today, only even more dated (not designs of the late 70ies and early 80ies but design from the late 60ies).

 

[DDAY]

Honestly, I believe I would love to see what it would have been like if it turned out like he wanted. I believe with today's technology and his ideas it would have been pretty cool.

 

[C&D]

Walt wasn't wearing 'rose colored glasses' when he proposed E.P.C.O.T. By his own admission (see One Man's Dream), he said, (and I'm paraphrasing) "these plans may change time and time again but keep it clear that we have our goals and our direction". What ultimately was created was EPCOT, and his legacy was preserved by the pragmatic efforts of Roy and the rest of the Imagineers, that knew that major rectifications would be needed to create what was ultimately built (in order to sustain itself).

 

[Mick G.]

I had never really thought of it, but the Epcot and Celebration names really should have been swapped. Celebration is a city, although it is based on the New Urbanism concepts of the late 20th century, which seem far better suited to modern life than the futuristic Metropolis ideas of the original Epcot design. And the Epcot park really is a celebration of assorted stuff... Don't they mention that on the monorail spiel? Although the word "celebration" is overused at WDW...

Maybe I'll start swapping the names anyway, and see if it catches on... At the least it will confuse the family.

Mick

 

[Master Gracey 5]

Totally agree with this. I think Walt might have been entering a utopian thinking phase before he died. You sometimes see it happen that someone who has done very well in a particular business venture starts trying to solve The Big Problems later in life...generally with much less success than they've been accustomed to.

From a curiosity standpoint, I would like to know what would have happened with Walt's urban planning vision. But I suspect it would not have been very successful. I've said it before, but his early death might have saved his legacy. As it is, we have a beautiful vision that can never be proven a failure, since "only Walt" could have made it work anyway...and we have a youthful, bright-eyed optimist who can never be proven wrong.

That's a much better source of inspiration for the Disney brand and a much better subject for fawning films than a world weary, embittered old man would be.

I agree with your thinking here Wilt - there was definitely an utopian way of thinking to Walt's EPCOT project, something that we've seen time and time again through history cannot work on large scale. If he had pursued it, it would likely have been a spectacular failure and probably destroyed not only Walt's legacy but his company as well. Walt always tried to think progressively, but his imagination exceeded his grasp many times and it was only through the help of his team that the company was kept upright. Trying to build and run an entire city might have pushed everything completely over the edge.

As for the version of Epcot that was finally made, I think it kept that progressive way Walt had of thinking in its original plan (albeit watered down today) and looked to create harmony not through living together in utopia, but through mutual understanding. Future World fits in with the progressive thinking and World Showcase works with the understanding half of it. In a way Epcot the theme park is a different answer to Walt's original question.

 

[BrerFrog]

I agree with most people here. Even though Celebration is much closer to what Walt originally planned as EPCOT, I think the park is another perspective on the same ideal. However, I think that is a more accurate statement when we look at the park before the tearing down of WoM and Horizons, and the closing of WoL

I do love both TT and MS, though.

 

[disneysroyal411]

I'll say it again as I know we had this argument on this sight before. I like Epcot but would have preferred E.P.C.O.T. The Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow. (Pretty sure that's right.) I'm fine with the Epcot that we have, but we didn't get E.P.C.O.T. Okay?

 

[Spike-in-Berlin]

I'll say it again as I know we had this argument on this sight before. I like Epcot but would have preferred E.P.C.O.T. The Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow. (Pretty sure that's right.) I'm fine with the Epcot that we have, but we didn't get E.P.C.O.T. Okay?

Experimental Prototype COMMUNITY of Tomorrow. Not City.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Experimental Prototype COMMUNITY of Tomorrow. Not City.

Actually, I think Walt used both acronyms. The meaning of EPCOT seemed to depend on his mood. :lol:

When EPCOT City gave way to EPCOT Center, I think "Community" might have overtaken "City" as the officially favored meaning, since it was obvious that the WDW property was not a city in any meaningful way.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

EPCOT Centre may not have been Walt's dream. But it sure was mine!


Somehow, that must've been part of Walt's dream...:animwink:

 

[ChrisFL]

First, yes the "C" in Epcot was used interchangably by Walt, I think even in the Florida film, he said both "City" and "Community".

Second, I don't even want to compare AT ALL the town of Celebration to Walt's vision of the city of EPCOT, they're both places where people live, but other than that, the similarities end there.

Other than the city being of a massive expense, I don't see why everyone assumes it would fail. Disney was going to house the Cast Members in the city and realistically Disney does something similar now for all of it's College Program and International Program CM's :shrug:

Yes, in many ways Walt was ahead of his time, but to me it is VERY sad that we didn't see any real form of his city being built because I think by now, even if that city didn't work out as well as planned, we would have seen the potential for how communities could be built to use a lot less energy and oh, I dunno, maybe preventing major disasters like an oil spill that is going to destroy the gulf of mexico