EPCOT: Is it really what Walt Dreamed?

fredtom

Active Member
While Walt was envisioning his development of EPCOT, he began studying urban planning. He was a dreamer-doer who always had a basis for his ideas and supported them with research.

He speculated that it would take him about 15 years to bring EPCOT to reality. I once read an article that summarized that had he lived just another five years, he probably could have realized his dream. As much as I love the present Epcot that materialized, I can't help but wonder how magnificent and exciting Walt's community of tomorrow would have been! Would that have been something? "It will be a city like no other."



"An Adventurer's life is best!" :lol:
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
While Walt was envisioning his development of EPCOT, he began studying urban planning. He was a dreamer-doer who always had a basis for his ideas and supported them with research.

He speculated that it would take him about 15 years to bring EPCOT to reality. I once read an article that summarized that had he lived just another five years, he probably could have realized his dream. As much as I love the present Epcot that materialized, I can't help but wonder how magnificent and exciting Walt's community of tomorrow would have been! Would that have been something? "It will be a city like no other."



"An Adventurer's life is best!" :lol:

Right, even when the Florida Project was announced, the plans for EPCOT were still very much fluid and I think still in the early stages.

The "Progress City" model that we can now view on the TTA was actually built after his death and have a lot of, shall we say, "show" elements that I never saw in any of the earlier plans.
 

MarkTwain

Well-Known Member
Totally agree with this. I think Walt might have been entering a utopian thinking phase before he died. You sometimes see it happen that someone who has done very well in a particular business venture starts trying to solve The Big Problems later in life...generally with much less success than they've been accustomed to.

From a curiosity standpoint, I would like to know what would have happened with Walt's urban planning vision. But I suspect it would not have been very successful. I've said it before, but his early death might have saved his legacy. As it is, we have a beautiful vision that can never be proven a failure, since "only Walt" could have made it work anyway...and we have a youthful, bright-eyed optimist who can never be proven wrong.

That's a much better source of inspiration for the Disney brand and a much better subject for fawning films than a world weary, embittered old man would be.

Perfectly stated. I agree that Walt was going through a sort of utopian phase, and, after a long and successful career and nearing his time to go, was starting to wonder what he could do to address the problems of the world. It's likely for the best of the company (and by extension, for Disney fans) that his proposals were never completed exactly as he envisioned, considering the huge likelihood of failure.

Sounds like we're of the same opinion, Wilt Dasney. :)

...

Second, I don't even want to compare AT ALL the town of Celebration to Walt's vision of the city of EPCOT, they're both places where people live, but other than that, the similarities end there.

...

Bringing up Celebration reminds me of something else I wanted mention.

Had it been built, EPCOT City would have been an absolutely massive construction of 1960s modernism, with all of the most modern design and thinking available at the time. At the same time, EPCOT was supposed to be a continuously evolving city, always containing the newest technologies and leading the way in contemporary design. And that would have been great... for the first 15 years or so. How has Disney's record been on upkeep of simple things like AA refurbishments or lightbulb changes? Those are a far cry from the large-scale urban renewal projects, architectural refurbishments and the complex installations of new technologies that EPCOT City would have required. And it's my interpretation that EPCOT City, visually, would have always had to "look" like it was at the pinnacle of modern design, even though it was built in the 1960s. It's easy enough to swap out the furniture and carpets in the Contemporary, or to redress the facade on Spaceship Earth, but to uniformly update the look of an entire city? Definitely not an expense I see Disney addressing for long.

What's more, in the 1980s, with the introduction of postmodern architecture and later, new urbanism, there started to be a serious negative reaction to the modernist designs of the 1950s-1970s, which EPCOT City likely would have fallen victim to. One could almost call these anti-modern movements a "revolt" against the thinking which inspired modernist architecture and urban planning, and these new lines of thinking (new urbanism in particular) continue to shape the way we think about design today.

Some more about new urbanism: After the constuction of Seaside, Florida, a highly successful master-planned community which arguably became the textbook of new urban design, the new urbanists wanted to create another experimental community which followed the same ideals (those being high density residences, small-scale and traditional architecture, streets designed to be walked rather than driven, etc.). Fortunately, arhitecturally-savvy Michael Eisner was happy to oblige. Enter Celebration, a master-planned new urbanist community built on former WDW property, and which also features quite the collection of postmodern architecture. So in a way, there ARE some similarities between EPCOT City and Celebration. Both were/are/would have been experimental and prototype cities, which accommodated the latest and most progressive thinking available at the time. Except that EPCOT City was 1960s modern design, and Celebration is new urbanist/postmodern.

Believe it or not (and this is pure speculation, so don't believe it if you don't want to), if EPCOT City and Celebration were both built on WDW property and existed today, Celebration would be (and is) the one most discussed among urban planners today. New urbanism continues to shape modern urban thinking and is a very hot topic in city halls everywhere, even several decades after its introduction. I can't tell you how many urban planning presentations and lectures I've been to that discussed Seaside and Celebration (seriously). EPCOT City looked great on paper, and will forever remain a testament to Walt's optimism and brilliant vision, but had it been built in reality, it would have dated badly.

IMO.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Celebration might be all well and good but it still doesn't solve the main problem that EPCOT the city would have...transportation.

Yes, there's a lot more pedestrian friendly areas, but it's not scalable the same way that a design like EPCOT would have been. The idea of a Peoplemover type system/Personal Rapid Transit system for being within the bounds of a city is one of the best that Walt came up with...and now, 40+ years later, it's finally coming back to being a reality in some places, like Masdar City : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masdar_City

The problem is that there's a lot of new concepts for personal rapid transport, but most of the cities these days are just NOT built for them and retrofitting the system isn't giving it the best opportunity for success.

Walt realized that, which is why he knew that such a system would have to be integral to the city plan to begin with. He also had quite an impressive testing ground in Disneyland.

One other thing about Walt, is that he didn't seem afraid to completely toss out an idea that didn't work, even if it was already built, see Disneyland circa 1955 vs. 1959 for example.
 

RiversideBunny

New Member
I believe that Walt Disney and his dreams were ever changing. It is incredible that the Florida project was pursued to this extent. EPCOT is a priceless jewel of the Walt's dream. Walt's untimely death took the company off in a wild direction that I am certain given his love for entertainment, the world, and people that he would step back and proclaim what a wonderous and exciting place Walt Disney World and EPCOT have become. The proof is in the smiles, the happieness of the families that visit, come bacl year after year to experience it all over again.

"There should be a place where the entire family can visit and have fun together", to paraphrase his statement and feelings related to his Disneyland project. Walt's spirit is truly present.

Agree.
:)
 

Mick G.

New Member
Had it been built, EPCOT City would have been an absolutely massive construction of 1960s modernism, with all of the most modern design and thinking available at the time.

...in the 1980s, ...there started to be a serious negative reaction to the modernist designs of the 1950s-1970s, which EPCOT City likely would have fallen victim to.

IMO.

I agree Mark, EPCOT City would have been stuck in the 60s or 70s, in the same way that the original Tomorrowland was, but on a massive scale. And not just the colors, or detailing, but the layout itself, the huge buildings, and the expensive transportation systems. Who would be paying for the update? Disney? The residents? Or would ticket prices go up?

I'm also thinking that in Walt's mind, EPCOT was in a very early phase, much like the early "dinner theatre" idea of the Tiki Room. As I understand it, the original idea for the Tiki Room was for it to be a restaurant with Audio-Animatronic entertainment, which sounded like a great idea straight from Walt, until the bean-counters realized that people would just buy a meal and sit for long periods, making the turnover really slow, and making the restaurant a money-losing proposition.

Likewise, they were just starting to sort through the details of how EPCOT would work financially when Walt died. One thing they realized is that if there were permanent residents on WDW property, the company would be accountable to them, would essentially lose control. I would imagine that they were also thinking of how much people would pay to live in this city, temporarily maybe, and who could afford that.

My opinion is that even if Walt had lived, the planning for EPCOT would have been tempered by economic and political realities, not to mention the evolving design concepts, and would have resulted in a city very different than the model we see on the Peoplemover.

Mick
 

raven

Well-Known Member
Nope - "Every Person Comes on Thursday" :ROFLOL:

"Every Paycheck Comes On Thursday"...for CM's.

"Every Person Comes Out Tired" or "Every Pocket Comes Out Thinner."

The original Epcot had many different versions. First, the countries weren't even a part of the plan but were to be it's own separate area close to the TTC. The city part of it had many plans and models (the one seen in the TTA is only one of those). One major problem with the original plan was the use of layers of tunnels under the city to move traffic, supplies and pedistrians. This would've been a nightmare to actually build with the water table being as close to ground level as it is. But I think the current Epcot is more of a tribute to Walt than anything else.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
"Every Paycheck Comes On Thursday"...for CM's.

"Every Person Comes Out Tired" or "Every Pocket Comes Out Thinner."

The original Epcot had many different versions. First, the countries weren't even a part of the plan but were to be it's own separate area close to the TTC. The city part of it had many plans and models (the one seen in the TTA is only one of those). One major problem with the original plan was the use of layers of tunnels under the city to move traffic, supplies and pedistrians. This would've been a nightmare to actually build with the water table being as close to ground level as it is. But I think the current Epcot is more of a tribute to Walt than anything else.

Seeing as they were able to make MK have "underground" (not really) Utilidors, I don't think that would have been much of an issue.

To save confusion, the original Epcot park model had something that actually looks oddly like the Communicore/Innoventions buildings, but with the countries and being near the TTC, that is correct.

The original City plan, as you can see in Walt's Florida film would have had an international themed downtown area, similar in ways to what became of the World Showcase.

Future World at the park was actually also similar to the "industrial" section of the city plan, where companies would do their testing of products.

So yes, I think the creators of EPCOT Center did as much as possible to bring some of the essence of the idea without it being a city, but since then have moved far away from the same ideals.
 

MarkTwain

Well-Known Member
Celebration might be all well and good but it still doesn't solve the main problem that EPCOT the city would have...transportation.

Yes, there's a lot more pedestrian friendly areas, but it's not scalable the same way that a design like EPCOT would have been. The idea of a Peoplemover type system/Personal Rapid Transit system for being within the bounds of a city is one of the best that Walt came up with...and now, 40+ years later, it's finally coming back to being a reality in some places, like Masdar City : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masdar_City

The problem is that there's a lot of new concepts for personal rapid transport, but most of the cities these days are just NOT built for them and retrofitting the system isn't giving it the best opportunity for success.

Walt realized that, which is why he knew that such a system would have to be integral to the city plan to begin with. He also had quite an impressive testing ground in Disneyland.

One other thing about Walt, is that he didn't seem afraid to completely toss out an idea that didn't work, even if it was already built, see Disneyland circa 1955 vs. 1959 for example.

Very true, Walt's solution for transportation is probably one of the most distinguished aspects of his EPCOT proposal, and something unfortunately unaddressed in Celebration. Even today, a combination of monorails, Peoplemovers and completely pedestrian walkways would be a wonderful system to implement in modern cities (The current WDW could probably benefit too).
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom