EPCOT HOrizons question

[Mickeyrulz]

Another Epcot question out of my mouth, LOL. Remember how the Horizons building supposedly had "damage" so it was cleared? Does anyone know the REAL story? I am skeptical as to whether or not it's true that it really was damaged. Also couldn't they put Mission:Space in its own new building over the huge lagoon? -thanks-

 

[General Grizz]

Well, because I hear the basement of MS is the same as Horizons and that the original plans for MS were next to the Living Seas AND that the original design for MS was going to take place in the Horizons building, I am not exactly sure what the structural issue was.

I'll pass along any info as I find it.

 

[Mickeyrulz]

Grizz, hate to go off topic but what's the latest w/ Wonders of Life? Loved your tribute video. I am a HUGE Wonders of Life fan. Now it is it going to permanently reopen anytime soon? Or just this stupid seasonal stuff? Why not put something like, call me crazy, Test Track on a seasonal schedule?

 

[General Grizz]

Grizz, hate to go off topic but what's the latest w/ Wonders of Life? Loved your tribute video. I am a HUGE Wonders of Life fan. Now it is it going to permanently reopen anytime soon? Or just this stupid seasonal stuff? Why not put something like, call me crazy, Test Track on a seasonal schedule?

Wonders of Life is seasonal so that Disney can get a roughly 3 million dollar tax write-off. It operates each and every day essentially as it houses plants and Cast Member socials. Not to mention conventions.

I even have video footage of the SENSORY FUNHOUSE sign lit up and revolving, captured several feet away outside of where the pavilion is blocked off.

NUMEROUS reports from high ups indicate Disney was sabotaging the pavilion (namely, this past May in an unjust premature closure in the evening and the removal of Surprise Fastpass, which added 35% increased attendance).

It has a 90% chance of reopening this December, and may close for good next Spring. There would be definitely no indiciation of any replacement.

At roughly 11,000 people per day, Wonders of Life had Cast Members and a manager cry the day its closure was announced. From what I hear, it was an emotional day.

I also hear that Goofy About Health will randomly start up, which is pretty funny.

 

[Mickeyrulz]

So where exactly is the Sensory Funhouse footage taken from the closed pavilion a few feet away? Have you taped it like the tribute video and put it on the computer? If so can I have the link?

I bet you, just maybe, that if Wonders of Life gets closed in the Spring next year then it will be replaced with NOTHING and just sit and rot for YEARS AND YEARS. Hey, look at 20K Leagues. Or the old Skyway (stations STILL in place, decaying!)

 

[General Grizz]

So where exactly is the Sensory Funhouse footage taken from the closed pavilion a few feet away?

The entire entrance (in front of the WoL sign) is blocked off, but even from that distance, a camera could zoom into the building's windows to see that the lights were on.

I have more footage of WoL as it is closed (it's so depressing to see it not open to guests!), but the only thing I have available online is this:

P.S. finally 10 years later, 20K is finally being changed. It is now being converted into a garden area/meet and greet. Ironically, it, too, was "sabotaged" ala Wonders of Life and was potentially also given the tax write off as it was officially dubbed as "closed seasonally" for 2 years. . .

 

[Mickeyrulz]

Oh I know the story on 20K, I was just giving a quick example. Was 20K really said "closed seasonally" for two years? During the 2 years did it even open?

 

[General Grizz]

Oh I know the story on 20K, I was just giving a quick example. Was 20K really said "closed seasonally" for two years? During the 2 years did it even open?

It was always closed, but DUBBED seasonal for a couple of years.

 

[Mickeyrulz]

Thanks Grizz. You must know alot, no one ever told me that before

Did you happen to ever ride the Skyway? I am fascinated with it, and I wanted to know a few things. WHERE in Tomorrowland is the station? And when the ride was open, and the TTA passed it, what did the spiel say? One more, in Fantasyland, in that station was it just a normal building or decorated inside too

 

[General Grizz]

Thanks Grizz. You must know alot, no one ever told me that before

Did you happen to ever ride the Skyway? I am fascinated with it, and I wanted to know a few things. WHERE in Tomorrowland is the station? And when the ride was open, and the TTA passed it, what did the spiel say? One more, in Fantasyland, in that station was it just a normal building or decorated inside too

I can't recall the Fantasyland Station interior. The Tomorrowland Station is across from Space Mountain.

Actually, the Fantasyland Station is being remodeled to become a stroller parking area for It's a Small World.

Wow. This went from Horizons to WoL to 20K to Skyway. . .

 

[marni1971]

Jumping back on topic (no offence Grizz, et al)

There were two rumours regarding Horizons building problems - the Ride system and a sinkhole. One was that the ride system (suspended `dumb` omnimover) was too heavy for the building frame, and was causing structural damage. Possible, I suppose, especially with such a heavy load and complicated double floor track (this was no Peter Pans Flight!)

The other was a sinkhole had been detected under the building. Possible, since the lake between The Odyssey and Innoventions was formed by a sinkhole (Odyssey was supposed originally to be closer Innoventions/Communicore. The sinkhole was discovered and hence the `out of the way` location of the resteraunt. However, I don`t know much about sinkholes, whether they can be fixed, but I wouldn`t build 4 Centrifuges spinning members of the public round at high speed near a sinkhole site. Unless they are well contained, and can`t spread - a possible reason for M:S`s show building being much smaller than the Horizons footprint.

As always, this is just putting together things I have read in several places on the `net. Even George (Mcginnis, Horizons Imagineer) told me he dosn`t know the real reason. So, choose from dated, dangerous, sinking or one of Eisners moments of genius (sarc)

 

[maxime29]

Jumping back on topic (no offence Grizz, et al)

There were two rumours regarding Horizons building problems - the Ride system and a sinkhole. One was that the ride system (suspended `dumb` omnimover) was too heavy for the building frame, and was causing structural damage. Possible, I suppose, especially with such a heavy load and complicated double floor track (this was no Peter Pans Flight!)

The other was a sinkhole had been detected under the building. Possible, since the lake between The Odyssey and Innoventions was formed by a sinkhole (Odyssey was supposed originally to be closer Innoventions/Communicore. The sinkhole was discovered and hence the `out of the way` location of the resteraunt. However, I don`t know much about sinkholes, whether they can be fixed, but I wouldn`t build 4 Centrifuges spinning members of the public round at high speed near a sinkhole site. Unless they are well contained, and can`t spread - a possible reason for M:S`s show building being much smaller than the Horizons footprint.

As always, this is just putting together things I have read in several places on the `net. Even George (Mcginnis, Horizons Imagineer) told me he dosn`t know the real reason. So, choose from dated, dangerous, sinking or one of Eisners moments of genius (sarc)

That's along the lines of what I heard.

That or the standard "out with the old...in with the new..." excuse is applicable.

 

[raven]

What the wide spread rumor was that the building was not stucturally sound after many years of strain put on the main supports. Just looking at the outside of the building makes me think that this was probably true. Also take into fact that the center of the building was clear of several supports due to the giant screens for the IMAX.

 

[Moustronaut]

Well, because I hear the basement of MS is the same as Horizons.

Grizz, how can that be?

The aerial photos from the early stages of M:S construction show the 4 round foundations for the centrifuges in place after the site had been graded down to bare dirt.

Is there some other backstage part of the building that IS common between the two?

 

[Horizons78]

.....So, choose from dated, dangerous, sinking or one of Eisners moments of genius (sarc).....

When it comes to Eisner lets all remember one thing..."this all started with a louse."....That being said - I think the approach that is most feasible was that management found the ride dated, sponsorship was lost, SO, then the building became dangerous afterwards.

A sinkhole big enough to cause a reason to bring down the building would have brought more "tall tales" from varied sources. It would have been very costly, taken an enormous amount of time to engineer, fix and test the fix, and I just believe more people would know about it. Plus I dont think they would have built MS on top of it - but ya just never know.

 

[MissM]

Sinkholes are a major problem in Florida. I know it's not on the same scale, but a number of years ago now, my mother's old house had started cracking and they found there was a forming sinkhole under it. What they had to do was drill these very deep thin holes every few feet around the entire home. They filled those with a special concrete and carefully created an artificial solid foundation 20 feet down for the home. It took weeks but came with something like a 100 year warrenty.

When just this year, a similar problem occurred under my sister's house, they opted to just pay off her mortgage rather then fix it. (Now she has to carry a special policy which won't cover sinkhole damage too.)

Sinkholes have to do with our naturally soft sandy soil, over pumping of water and overgrowth of buildings. And they're really becoming a major crisis in a lot of cities.

Anyway, I can't say whether or not there were/are sinkholes in Epcot, but it wouldn't be surprising if it did or would happen. I know it was a heafty fee to repair the damage to my mom's house so the expense to do so for something the size of a show building would have to be momumental. Problem is though that no, they won't go away on their own and YES they WILL spread and get worse.
-m

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

I still doubt the Horizons omvnimover building stress and/or sinkhole.

Come on people....General Electric was gone, it was all in the hands of Disney, as early as 1995-1996 Disney wanted to close Horizons. I found this written in a guidebook from that time period. Because World of Motion, and Universe of Energy were all going down for rehabs, this meant that the Wonders of Life pavilion would have been the only pavilion opened in future world east, you also have to take into account that communicore east was also being remodled into innoventions east.

So they had to keep something open. They decided to of course clear all General Electric refrences and the ride was kept open. Wow I guess they weren't talking about this sinkhole or building stress, I guess they must have risked guests lives, God forbid the building collapses in on them.

Yea know the world of motion also went from the first floor to the second floor, and there was never any building stress or sinkholes found. God it took years of bickering between General Motors and Disney to finally change the world of motion, Disney was pressuring them with a new ride and contract since 1993.

So now that Universe of Energy,Wonders of Life, Test Track, and Innoventions were now all open, Horizons finally looked good for Disney to close. They had a reason, after all they already had opened up everything else on future world east.

So on January 9th, 1999 Horizons closed for good. Yet this is the craziest thing, they let the building rot for just about a year, and they also let members of the press and Disney Corp to ride Horizons even after it was closed to the public. Wow I guess they weren't too nervous about risking *important* people's lives were they?

So then they finally begin to gut the back of the building and then take the ride interiors out. Oh and yes Horizons was the first building to actually be demolished, let alone the way it must have looked to guests watching this crumbling building infront of their own eyes, but just prior to the front entrance facade being demolished, Eisner and his buds at HP had a night gala over in front of Horizons were they blew up some part of the building, and then had a small fireworks gig along with it. Wow I guess they weren't gonna go expensive and just blow up the whole thing, maybe Mr. Sinkhole was down there screaming about it.

So then Mission: Space finally opens, a far cry, and shadow in what Horizons was, and nothing like the concieved pre 1982 Space Pavilion. Mission: Space was a mere rip off compared to Horizons. This was something Eisner and the board did do. He in fact othorized, along with the board to close Horizons and building a more lousy, less inspiring attraction in its place. 1999 was the year EPCOT Center or however you want to call it finally "died" and was killed off. Disney hated Horizons, and they wanted every excuse to tear it down.

:brick: There was no sinkhole, nor was there stress on the building! They knew about this when they built this, and I highly doubt it would take that many years for signs to occur. What an odd coincidence that they starting suppodedly finding a sink hole and building stress after the post 1996 future world east was completed, and General Electric was long gone. Let alone if the building was so unsafe, they would just let it sit there for nearly a year, and actually let some memebers of Disney and the press go back in and ride it.

EXCUSES. EXCUSES. There was no need to tear down Horizons. Rather then spend their own money in finding a new sponsor, and updating the ride, they tor it down, and there is no reason why they did. The result of Horizons, that being Mission: Space is like getting a small 5 inch plastic telescope from a cereal advertisment, when they outsmart the children into thinking it's gonna be a huge real working telescope. AKA Cheap lousy results, and lies, with a product that can't allow everyone to "play" with.

 

[General Grizz]

So on January 9th, 1999 Horizons closed for good. Yet this is the craziest thing, they let the building rot for just about a year, and they also let members of the press and Disney Corp to ride Horizons even after it was closed to the public. Wow I guess they weren't too nervous about risking *important* people's lives were they?

DON'T FORGET.. Horizons opened ONE MORE DAY on January 24th, I believe, for guests.

And I totally see what you are getting.

I'll make a few meetings in the coming year and will dig up the dirt.

 

[General Grizz]

... and according to a (very) lead designer of Horizons, when asked about potential sinkholes, he replied that he had "Only heard two rumors. . . nothing official."

A longtime CM says, "I still think the whole sinkhole idea is completely bogus though, for two reasons: first, as I've said before, the timing just a bit too convenient. Second, and perhaps more importantly, Mission: Space was built on the same spot. I've seen photos of the land being cleared after Horizons' demolition, and there is no visible evidence of a sinkhole, nor of any work to fill or prepare a sinkhole that hadn't fully formed."

Then again, there is a sinkhole under UoE that has water constantly being pumped under it. . .

A Disney fan writes, "It will be interesting to see exactly what is under the foundation when they get to it. There were some really weird breakdowns the last few months the ride was open. Also, some of the support beams here
really twisted when they were "uncovered." I was talking to one of the managers that worked in that area. He said that Disney had no choice but to tear Horizons down. His stories of the times that it was raining in the space scenes due to the leaking roof were especially entertaining! And a sinkhole isn't out of the question. Universe of Energy sits on one. They are constantly pumping water in underneath it to keepit 'floating.' "

Hrm...

 

[General Grizz]

DUN DUN DUN!!

"I was involved in removing equipment from the building after it closed. In doing such I was able to spend quite a fair bit of time walking around the building and getting a good look around. I saw no evidence of any type of structural failure. I have been involved in theme park inspection and maintenance for over 10 years and had 15 years of theatrical set design and construction experience before that, so I am not making the following claims lightly. I have a pretty darn good idea of what to look for, and when I was in Horizons it just was not evident."

"Now I am not claiming to be an expert, but I have been in the theme park biz for over 10 years as a technician and have done more than my fair share of ride inspections. There did not seem to be any signs of damage that would be severe enough to warrant destruction, if there had been then the building should have been demolished with everything inside as most rules and laws that declare a property "condemmed" don't make any provisions for entry into an "unsafe building" I think that real reason that the building was destroyed is that it did not lend itself well to rehabilitation into another attraction. There is just to much cost involved in moving and upgrading the support infrastructure ( water, sewer, gas, electricity, and HVAC) when compared to the cost of new construction. New construction usually comes from a different budget source and often has tax benefits as well, whereas remodeling does not afford the same tax breaks."

Getting more and more frustrated. . .