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EPCOT failed - Epcot is great!
- Thread starter Dr Albert Falls
- Start date
That's the attitude
I think a few of us should step back and look through those same eyes. This is meant to be fun.
I really don't want to close this thread, so please, a little more civility in here. Thank you.
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Of course I'm the same way. I have a blast every time I walk in also... I hope that everyone here can say that, but I honestly am not sure.
Seriously... If you could transplant EPCOT '90 directly into the park today... what do you think the main reaction would be by guests?
dxwwf3
Well-Known Member
The reaction would be terrible. Most people would hate it. And I could care less :lol:
I do not let other people's opinions dictate what I like. I'm not saying EPCOT '90 should still be intact or Disney should recreate the park in that image. What I am saying is that that time period is my absolute favorite time period of the park.
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
wannabe@dis makes a great point with nemo in the seas because the original idea for the seas was to be a main attracton hosted by the sea god poseidon. It could have been easily tweaked and remained 1986 relevant today. But because imagineers chose 1986 seabase aplha to the point where the seas became a snoozefest, its still a learning place with new color scheme and a character from the sea that both entertains informs and inspires.....I just freaking miss the sun and hyrdolators lmao!
EPCOT 90' could only be relevant to today in the edutainment push. The original innoventions 1994-1998 was an excellent blend of communicore and innoventions. Perhaps the 1999-present innoventions is a mesh of things, but it still has things to see and discover.
EPCOT 90' could only be relevant to today in the edutainment push. The original innoventions 1994-1998 was an excellent blend of communicore and innoventions. Perhaps the 1999-present innoventions is a mesh of things, but it still has things to see and discover.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Rather than go through and single out (and quote) specific posts, I'll try to address certain points because quoting things across 3 pages is a little annoying.
Epcot is the second most attended park at WDW. However, that's largely because it's open late everynight. I'm guessing that if Epcot and MGM switched operating hours for a year (and assuming that they would have a nighttime fantasmic around the same time as ROE) you would see the two parks flip flop in attendance.
Saying the original Imagination was the second most popular ride in the park before it was changed isn't really saying much. This is the roster of rides at the time:
Spaceship Earth
SeaCabs
Imagination
Horizons
World of Motion
Rio del Tempo
Maelstrom
Body Wars
Universe of Energy
Living with the Land
Body Wars was cloned in MGM, and the clone was significantly more popular.
Maelstrom was the only other thing close to a thrill ride, and it's only a notch above Pirates on the "thrill" factor.
For Disney to remain competitive, they needed to add thrill rides in some capacity. They have publicaly stated that they have contemplated replacing every ride at one time or another.
The options for high capacity thrill rides were pretty small. You could replace World of Motion, Spaceship Earth or Horizons. Of those three, World of Motion was in my mind the easiest one to replace. I enjoyed the attraction, the view you got at the beginning of Spaceship Earth, and the trip through the history of motion. However, with Test Track they were able to provide us with an educational "thrill ride". Replacing Horizons was more out of necessity than anything. The ride was closed due to safety concerns over the structural integrity of the building. The demolition led the way for a completely new replacement in Mission Space.
As for the original imagination. It was my favorite ride in Epcot - I didn't like the first change, and I feel that the second change made Figment into a coked out ADD version of his former self. I too harp for the classics, but I understand the need for change. If Epcot still had that roster of rides, and remained unchanged for 10 years it would be a horribly dated park.
Soarin', Test Track, and to a lesser extent Mission Space have done wonders to revitalize Future/Discover World - I'm guessing when The Seas are completely finished that the new "dark" ride will further enhance the front end of the park. This is good news, considering there is still plenty of room for expansion in the front, and very little has been done to boost World Showcase in 10 years.
Epcot is the second most attended park at WDW. However, that's largely because it's open late everynight. I'm guessing that if Epcot and MGM switched operating hours for a year (and assuming that they would have a nighttime fantasmic around the same time as ROE) you would see the two parks flip flop in attendance.
Saying the original Imagination was the second most popular ride in the park before it was changed isn't really saying much. This is the roster of rides at the time:
Spaceship Earth
SeaCabs
Imagination
Horizons
World of Motion
Rio del Tempo
Maelstrom
Body Wars
Universe of Energy
Living with the Land
Body Wars was cloned in MGM, and the clone was significantly more popular.
Maelstrom was the only other thing close to a thrill ride, and it's only a notch above Pirates on the "thrill" factor.
For Disney to remain competitive, they needed to add thrill rides in some capacity. They have publicaly stated that they have contemplated replacing every ride at one time or another.
The options for high capacity thrill rides were pretty small. You could replace World of Motion, Spaceship Earth or Horizons. Of those three, World of Motion was in my mind the easiest one to replace. I enjoyed the attraction, the view you got at the beginning of Spaceship Earth, and the trip through the history of motion. However, with Test Track they were able to provide us with an educational "thrill ride". Replacing Horizons was more out of necessity than anything. The ride was closed due to safety concerns over the structural integrity of the building. The demolition led the way for a completely new replacement in Mission Space.
As for the original imagination. It was my favorite ride in Epcot - I didn't like the first change, and I feel that the second change made Figment into a coked out ADD version of his former self. I too harp for the classics, but I understand the need for change. If Epcot still had that roster of rides, and remained unchanged for 10 years it would be a horribly dated park.
Soarin', Test Track, and to a lesser extent Mission Space have done wonders to revitalize Future/Discover World - I'm guessing when The Seas are completely finished that the new "dark" ride will further enhance the front end of the park. This is good news, considering there is still plenty of room for expansion in the front, and very little has been done to boost World Showcase in 10 years.
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info!! :wave:
Do you (or someone else) have links that showed any original concept art or more information about the Poseidon overlay?
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
I personally don't but I know Martin Smith, who makes excelent tribute videos on the past of WDW has a 2005 video that shows both film and concept work of the living seas. This can be found on both geoffreynease.com and dc-torrents.com I'm not trying to promote. You'd need to sign in for free to view the videos. It's worth it!!!
You'd need to sign in for free to view the videos. It's worth it!!!
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
I've seen many of Marni's videos and will take a look. Thanks!I personally don't but I know Martin Smith, who makes excelent tribute videos on the past of WDW has a 2005 video that shows both film and concept work of the living seas. This can be found on both geoffreynease.com and dc-torrents.com I'm not trying to promote.
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
...and he's got great footage of the hydrolators and the sun mural too in the video!!!! :hammer:
Have some luv for the sun! they should have repainted it a different non 80s color waaaa.
I'm wondering....are the hydrolators that would be before the clammobiles still be around?! :dazzle:
Have some luv for the sun!
they should have repainted it a different non 80s color waaaa.I'm wondering....are the hydrolators that would be before the clammobiles still be around?! :dazzle:
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
Nah... the new mural looks MUCH better! :lol:...and he's got great footage of the hydrolators and the sun mural too in the video!!!! :hammer:
Have some luv for the sun!
I'm wondering....are the hydrolators that would be before the clammobiles still be around?! :dazzle:
I believe it's been posted that ALL hydrolators are gone, so it will be interesting to see how they load the new / revised attraction.
RedSoxPirate
New Member
A) With Disney, it's rarely just about what the "guests" want. Just consider their policy on releasing their films to the public. :lol: Walt was never one to pander to the will of the masses -- everything, from films to marketing to theming of the parks, was a reflection of what *he* wanted us to see. Epcot, being no different, was meant to be held to a different standard than other theme parks. Honestly, it was just as fun when it was more stimulating and challenging; clearly, people liked this about the park or else it would never have survived from the beginning.
B) Let it not be said that I think the current attractions are in any way "dumbed down." I feel they appeal to the lower parts of our characters, rather than continuing to inspire our better angels. They appeal to consistency and complacency -- the complete antithesis of Epcot's original mission. What's more shortsighted than looking toward a soon-to-be-realized future rather than shooting for things that our grandchildren might not see? I still fail to understand how those of us who champion the general attitude of the "Epcot that was" are the shortsighted ones. Do not mistake me: it's not that I miss a single attraction or even a set of attractions. It's that I miss a general attitude with which I associate that attraction.
Go back and re-read what I wrote, without placing your own bias in it and maybe you'll see what I was really getting at. I'll leave this at that.:animwink:
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
It's not about what the guests want? I have to say that absolutely makes no sense. Without the guests, it's a failure. Walt was all about pandering to the will of the masses. The problem here is that you seem to see it as "his creation for him alone" and not as "his creation for the enjoyment of the guests." When he saw things that he didn't like... it was changed. I seem to remember a quote where he was saying that he wanted to see the parks from the guests' point of view so he could better manage the "show" and not to see it only from a designer standpoint.
What you are relating to is the design only and not the reaction to that design. I also believe that you are sorely mistaken if you believe EPCOT was liked in the very beginning. Much work had to be done to de-emphasize the educational aspects and bring in the entertainment that the guests wanted.
Again, you are discussing the design as opposed to the realized execution of the park. The design of the "old" attractions was phenomonal and I've NEVER said otherwise. However, their execution lacked the longevity of their counterparts in MK. This is primarily due to the educational aspects and the attempt to capture the future in a single snapshot of an attraction. It just can't be done. The attractions in Future World have to be continually changed to handle current leaps towards our never realized future. That's impossible, so they have turned to a much better thesis and that's explaining HOW we have tackled the future and the accomplishments of that struggle.
What you call "appealing to the lower parts of our character" is actually the correct way to handle the problem with the current always surpassing the previous notion of the future. It's also what rejuvenated Epcot that is now starting to give the guests what they desire -- fun.
We all have our own bias, however, I hope that WDI does not use a bias when doing long term planning. They have to look at it from the guest perspective and attempt to build attractions that will appeal to ALL guests... not just a few that want to disect some plaque at the entrance and try to apply some kind of social statements to a theme park.
Edit: changing "plague" to "plaque" since as noted in RedSoxPirate's PM to me, I don't want to "sound completely ignorant."
GenerationX
Well-Known Member
It's expectation management. Museum visitors expect to be educated. Theme park visitors expect to be entertained. The "Epcot that was" was short-sighted. Flawed from the start. It's amazing some of the attractions lasted as long as they did.
Scar Junior
Active Member
I got very bored reading the original post so I stopped by the third paragraph.
All I'll say is this: Epcot is my favorite park. Yeah, it's not Walt's Dream but so what. Nothing is perfect and contrary to popular belief, not all dreams come true.
All I'll say is this: Epcot is my favorite park. Yeah, it's not Walt's Dream but so what. Nothing is perfect and contrary to popular belief, not all dreams come true.
headmouse2000
Member
you really dont listen. I said that the living seas def. needed a redo BUT they didn't need to nemoize it.
speck76
Well-Known Member
wannab@dis
Well-Known Member
I've listened and replied, but you have yet to actually answer any of the questions I've asked.
It's been mentioned in the thread that the original concept of The Living Seas included Poseidon. If Nemo had been around at that time, he may have been added. I guess that would be ok since it would have originally included characters. You've stated that Dreamfinder and Figment are ok...
I bet that if Nemo (or Poseidon) had been in the original, and during this rehab, we heard they were being removed, you would be just as upset. *shrug*
Expo_Seeker40
Well-Known Member
wannab were u able to see the video yet? :wave:
I'm wondering had they done the Poseidon overlay, the seas would have either become
A.) simply an updated/upgraded version of Poseidon in the seas and the small seabase alpha exhibit
B.) Poseidon thrill ride puke fest and an updated seabase alpha
C.) new character overlay aka nemo concept
Either way the seas needed it, and are getting it. The characters are there to entice a wide arrange of guests. I assume the characters will not only educate, but also entertain guests along with the already existing seabase alpha, merely in a new color scheme, and I think some of the exhibits are still there all the way from 1986 if memory serves me correct.
Perhaps the poster in question wants the philosophy of EPCOT Center to live on. In a way it still does, especially in world showcase. Now some characters in certain restaurants, maybe is a bit too much, but to see Aladdin and Jasmine in Morocco, and Cinderella in the UK where I once saw her, helps reinforce Epcot as part of WDW as it should be. It's just a modest touch.
Now, Innoventions (1994-1998) really was an updated communicore in alot of ways. Innoventions post mellenium celebration is very cluttered and a mesh of things, and the sun doesn't shine in the buildings in many places so to say. Cosmetically that could use a sprucer upper.
Yes maybe Smrt1 could have entertained guests with new interactions, and a really cool computer central exhibit....actually they should have simply left computer central not as an exhibit, but simply just leave the windows open with no exhibit for guests to see the computers. OH HOW I WANT TO SEE THOSE BIG COMPUTERS BEHIND WHATEVER WALL IS BLOCKING THEM.
I'm wondering had they done the Poseidon overlay, the seas would have either become
A.) simply an updated/upgraded version of Poseidon in the seas and the small seabase alpha exhibit
B.) Poseidon thrill ride puke fest and an updated seabase alpha
C.) new character overlay aka nemo concept
Either way the seas needed it, and are getting it. The characters are there to entice a wide arrange of guests. I assume the characters will not only educate, but also entertain guests along with the already existing seabase alpha, merely in a new color scheme, and I think some of the exhibits are still there all the way from 1986 if memory serves me correct.
Perhaps the poster in question wants the philosophy of EPCOT Center to live on. In a way it still does, especially in world showcase. Now some characters in certain restaurants, maybe is a bit too much, but to see Aladdin and Jasmine in Morocco, and Cinderella in the UK where I once saw her, helps reinforce Epcot as part of WDW as it should be. It's just a modest touch.
Now, Innoventions (1994-1998) really was an updated communicore in alot of ways. Innoventions post mellenium celebration is very cluttered and a mesh of things, and the sun doesn't shine in the buildings in many places so to say. Cosmetically that could use a sprucer upper.
Yes maybe Smrt1 could have entertained guests with new interactions, and a really cool computer central exhibit....actually they should have simply left computer central not as an exhibit, but simply just leave the windows open with no exhibit for guests to see the computers. OH HOW I WANT TO SEE THOSE BIG COMPUTERS BEHIND WHATEVER WALL IS BLOCKING THEM.
davewasbaloo
New Member
Ah, but that's the problem, they do not fit.
Aladdin is from Persia (modern day Iran/Iraq), not north African Morocco, and Cinderella is French. But joe public does not know this, so Disney continues to dilute world heritage.
I don't mind characters, in fact my DW and Kids love them, but I prefer streetmousephere that is appropriate to the area instead.