EPCOT failed - Epcot is great!

[RSoxNo1]

I really don't understand the mindless bickering on here:

"Epcot is in need of more attractions"
"Epcot should go back to the way it was"
"There isn't enough for kids in Epcot"
"I don't like Pixar"
"I love Nemo!"

Here's my two cents. The classic Epcot attractions, World of Motion, Horizons and Imagination were educational rides, that although loved by many Disney purists, did not pack in the guests, and more often than not, had less than a 10 minute wait. This could be a product of their capacity, but it was largely a product of their effects on guests. When Imagination changed, they improved the special effects, but in doing so - eliminated the heart of the attraction. The lovable song, and the attractions two main characters. With Horizons and World of Motion, their weren't distinct characters that guided us through the attractions making the drastic change a little easier. Although test track is only losely related to the world of motion, there is a degree of education incorporate with that ride. With Mission space, there isn't as much education, more adventure/exploration, but hey - that's what Horizons was.

This brings us to the Seas with Nemo and Friends. Turtle Talk is a great attraction, I just wished they had multiple theaters and an area for the queue that didn't extend out into the pavillion. Like the recent changes to Epcot, incorporating Nemo into the attraction will breath new light into the pavillion, "tricking" kids with edutainment as they search the tanks for fish that look like their favorite Pixar characters. By projecting these animated characters into the tanks I can only assume the goal is to bring recognizeable characters into an attraction to help tell a story. That's what Disney does with many of its dark rides, and I for one will reserve judgement until seeing the attraction in person.

Of the 4 parks, Epcot has received the most attention in recent years, and all this attention has seemingly revitalized a "tired" park. I can only hope that this will extend to world showcase, wonders of life, universe of energy and the odyssey in the next 10 years.

 

[SoFlaDisneyFan]

This is by far THE most thought-provoking post I have read on this board. I know I may not post all that much, but I am here daily, or nearly daily, reading and following along with the best of you. I know, I know, it’s rude to ghost, but I chime in whenever I have a few available moments at work (or whenever something is just TOO good to not comment on.)

I agree with everything said here (but the budget bit.....anything you read/watch regarding the history of EPCOT Center, you will learn the extremely massive budget the creators were given to work with). In the end, they came up with a completely innovative theme park experience, one that is still truly original to anything else on the planet (as is the rest of WDW, but Epcot has its own distinct aura.)
<O
No matter what, I too adore and cherish everything that relates to the EPCOT Center of my 80’s/early 90’s childhood, and it has taken me some time to truly allow myself to be honest about the past, present, and future of this wonderful park, and at the end of the day, I gave into the character invasion, the seemingly quick fixes on events and attractions, and the sudden explosion of "thrill" type attractions. But now, after some time, I have come to feel the EXACT same way our original poster feels. Retro EPCOT Center will always have a place in my heart, but the park HAS to move on, it HAS to reinvent. Think of Madonna (strange example, I know, but she is the only pop cultural icon to truly master and navigate a successful career based on the premise of complete and total reinvention.) If Madonna attempted to base her entire career off the first/early imagine of her 1983 debut, do you think she would be the mega star she is today? NEVER. Wild peroxide bleached hair, oversized rag tie bows, and a ton of rubber bracelets covering her arms would look ridiculous on a 48-year-old woman. She would become a complete and tragic parody of herself, much the way EPCOT Center would be if it still existed in its original glory today. I know there are some extreme Madonna-haters out there, but forget the person for a second and think of the concept. Kids would snicker and laugh at a 1982 EPCOT Center’s embarrassed expense, the nostalgia freaks would marvel and worship, all as the critics and general public would completely disregard and avoid this time warp theme park altogether, allowing the face of Disney to bear the blemish of something once so fresh and modern to fall victim to ruthless aging and irrelevance.

The whole “future” theme really doesn’t work that well these days. Every day that you awake to the world there is a wide array of leaps and bounds in our already electronic-focused society. It would be more than embarrassing if Future World toted the whole “Future that never was” styling that TommorrowLand carries so well. A world of “fantasy future” is a bit more exciting and fresh (though even a fantasy outlook should still summon frequent updates and outlooks as our world continues to evolve and expand into the technological future and our ideas and fantasies of the future continue to evolve with it.
<O
Without further rambling, the point is, the new "Epcot" has become a worthy child of its innovative and original parent. It compliments the other parks, and it now exudes a "modern magic" with a still retro ode to its early roots and beginnings. Now, don’t get me wrong, if Disney ever went ape crazy and threw in some irrelevant coaster ride into the park, I would personally organize the angry mob that would meet at the Epcot gate for justice and salvation. But as for the new attractions taking the claim as the Epcot headliners, they are modern vehicles’ on the same ol' retro highway. They fit the theme, they entertain the masses, and they are the true future of Epcot.
<O
Yes, as with everything, evolution and change will suffer mishaps (Journey Into Imagination), awkward moments (The Land Pavilion before its current completion), and creative moments of sheer beauty (Mission:Space’s building (take your own outlook on the attraction itself)). So, as my heart and memory place EPCOT Center into its rightful resting place, I look forward to what is to come for Epcot, hoping that the future will continue to lead with classic Disney style, magic, and innovation, but all along never losing sight of where it all came from, and where it began.
<O
Sorry for going on so LONG…I hope some of you made it through! (LOL):snore: <O

 

[Stitch69]

Your point seems well thought out...but I missed the point?

 

[Meeko]

ok I just wanna start with i hate some of the Tackyness that has taken over Epcot(aka. The Seas). The Seas with nemo and friends is just a joke. It took a great concept The Living Seas and mashed it into the ground. Don't get me wrong The Living Seas needed a major update but it could have been done in a much better way without showcasing a character out of it. last I remember it is located in future world. so thats my two cents. go ahead and flame me but i will never accept The Seas with nemo and friends.

Maybe you should reserve your opinion until you actually ride the new attraction. So many times people put down something before they ever see it... seems exhausting to me.:drevil:

<O
...it has taken me some time to truly allow myself to be honest about the past, present, and future of this wonderful park, and at the end of the day, I gave into the character invasion, the seemingly quick fixes on events and attractions, and the sudden explosion of "thrill" type attractions. But now, after some time, I have come to feel the EXACT same way our original poster feels. Retro EPCOT Center will always have a place in my heart, but the park HAS to move on, it HAS to reinvent. ...
The whole “future” theme really doesn’t work that well these days. Every day that you awake to the world there is a wide array of leaps and bounds in our already electronic-focused society. It would be more than embarrassing if Future World toted the whole “Future that never was” styling that TommorrowLand carries so well. A world of “fantasy future” is a bit more exciting and fresh (though even a fantasy outlook should still summon frequent updates and outlooks as our world continues to evolve and expand into the technological future and our ideas and fantasies of the future continue to evolve with it.....<O
<O

My opinion is very similar to the post above. I feel that the place that should be keeping up nostalgia and mixing in new attractions is the Magic Kingdom. The Kingdom's always been a place where different generations could enjoy the same attraction because it was timeless and bonded them (think Small World). Epcot is the place for "modern" advances in the theme park. When Disneyland was first built, it was based more on Walt's love of nostalgia mixed with hope for the future and not so much on the current fads in the 1950's modern entertainment. Epcot's original idea, however, was based around modern advancements and the future of technology. The park when it opened featured much of the "future" that seems to have been easier to predict in the 80's than it is to predict and place in attractions today. Our world moves much faster. I guess my point is that although I don't think today's Epcot can realistically be based on the "future" and be updated frequently enough to be relevant. I would rather it take new technological advancements (like the new Nemo ride will have) and put them into the educational settings that are the basis of Future World. The technology can blend education into entertainment for children and still give adults something to be impressed about.

Keep the nostalgia and maintain the timeless classics at the Magic Kingdom. Wow me with updates in Future World at Epcot.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading all of these posts so far! This is a great thread.:sohappy:

 

[ms7479a]

I know that the old rides such as Horizons and World of Motion were classics and enjoyed by many people, myself included. The problem with these rides was that as technology has developed the rides were not able to keep up. Many of the things expressed about the future in Horizons were already starting to be developed. In other words, Horizons claimed to be a ride about looking into the future but in fact, it was depicting a future which already existed.

If we look at some of the new rides that have appeared in Epcot recently, Test Track, Mission Space, Soarin, and now the rehab of the Living Seas, I can see a common theme: Making rides that will have more longevity. Test Track and Mission space are rides who won't grow as old as quickly as Horizons and World of Motion did. The same holds true for Soarin. These new rides are a way to create some long-lasting stability in Epcot without having to constantly update the rides. The resent "nemofication" of the Living Seas is just another example. Seabase Alpha, although a very good theme, was becoming old and did not present a view of the future but rather a view of the future from the 1980's. The point of the rehab is not necissarily about Nemo but instead it is about bringing the pavilion up to date and giving it longevity.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

In other words, Horizons claimed to be a ride about looking into the future but in fact, it was depicting a future which already existed.

This is well evidenced by the proliferation of hovercar dealerships, holographic communications devices, and FuturePorts providing transportation to our cities under the sea and out in space.

If we look at some of the new rides that have appeared in Epcot recently, Test Track, Mission Space, Soarin, and now the rehab of the Living Seas, I can see a common theme: Making rides that will have more longevity. Test Track and Mission space are rides who won't grow as old as quickly as Horizons and World of Motion did.

While I'd be stupid to deny that Horizons was outdated, I really can't say the same for World of Motion. I felt it was one of those timeless attractions along the lines of Spaceship Earth, the Haunted Mansion, and Pirates of the Caribbean. With the exception of many of the exhibits in TransCenter, there wasn't much that screamed 80's to me. The Hub City (CenterCore, or whatever you want to call it) finale was very dazzling, and the cars of the future you saw yourself in, ala the Hitchhiking Ghosts effect, might have gotten a little old, but that would be relatively easy to update. Test Track would have been a perfect Transportation supplementary experience to replace just the TransCenter, along with an exhibit of the latest concept cars. There was plenty of room next to World of Motion to build a custom building for Test Track. Maybe TT wouldn't have broken down so often if they had done that. (EPCOT - Even Programmers Can't Operate Test track)

As far as the Seas goes, my qualm with it is that they are replacing the function of the pavilion to solely educate what we already know about sea life, instead of a look at the most cutting-edge (supposedly) sea exploration technology. What kind of vehicles will we be using, what will an underwater SeaBase look like, etc.? If we're visiting an attraction to learn about marine life, this is something that belongs in Animal Kingdom. Don't get me wrong here, I love Turtle Talk with Crush, but I think there could be something better done with The Living Seas that pertains to Epcot, and Nemo & Friends would find a better home at Animal Kingdom.

 

[PintoColvig]

Interesting thread, to say the least, though I'm not sure what motivated the original post. Nevertheless, I loved the old Epcot Center and I love the new Epcot. From a nostalgia standpoint, I wish I could ride some of the now-defunct attractions (original Figment, WoM, Horizons, old seacabs, UoE) but I also glad that we have new things like Test Track and Soarin'.

Here's a question I have. Is there still a significant number of people who consider Epcot's Future World to be boring (especially for kids)? The overall attendance figures for Epcot just don't seem to support the "Epcot is seen to be boring" line. Epcot is getting better and better, IMO.

 

[PKD]

EPCOT CENTER was full of potential, and so is Epcot. I love the nostalgia and promise of the former, but I believe that the latter will continue to evolve but remain true to the ideas of EPCOT CENTER.

The changes, though hard to accept at first, are needed to keep the park interesting for our kids. Just like when we were young, the technology used amazed us. However that technology and other forms of media is "out of date" for the younger ones. Don't get me wrong, I don't want Disney to change every little detail, but some changes are, and will be required.

Disney, over all, I think has done a good job in keeping up with the times to allow old and new a great experiance! (though the evil hat at MGM is another story!!) lol

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

Very good points :wave:

Though EPCOT Center (1982-1993) in my opinion did have some lackluster qualities with it, the overal THEME and PURPOUSE somehow was more intriguing. Perhaps Epcot (1997-present) is continuing to transition to an overal purpose and by this I mean Future World.

I do agree with the people on this board that some "things" simply bother one about what Epcot continues to become. The overal theme of pavilion logos that continue disappear should have been redesigned. Now we have a few old logos scattered around Future World.

When Innoventions Plaza became "cluttered", and earth station and innoventions painted this very 80s and dated tan color scheme, now mixed with blues and greens.

My problem with Future World is mostly with design and presentation.

As far as world showcase goes, it could use more pavilions, more rides, and new films which looks like canada is getting one.

The spirit of EPCOT will always exist somehow.

Perhaps we will get a new Journey into god only knows what, and a revamped upstairs imageworks...the only mishap I find with the seas is the loss of the hydrolators and the sun lol because a 21st century seabase alpha with nemo could have done well in future world.

Test Track and Mission Space will always pack them in, and Soarin is a true EPCOT addition to future world, and spaceship earth continues to get the TLC it deserves.

With wonders of life closed *i was never fond of it in the first place* one can only imagine what new discovery will come from it.

The Universe of Energy needs help, it really could become a semi serious attraction again with amazing show presentation if given the buget.

So while world showcase isn't in too much of a hassle, and future world basically coming to a gradual close with the great transition that started for the mellenium celebration....while some things are bothersome to me about future world...mostly I agree with the thread starter that Epcot is transitioning, and in my opinion into an EPCOT Center that has potential to serve a better purpose. :wave: whenever that wand and stars comes down, I will be most happy that a new era will come to Epcot

 

[Mick G.]

That EPCOT that wasn't

I think EPCOT Center was a better idea than Walt's EPCOT, financially. I just can't imagine that EPCOT would have worked as a city, and it would be looking really dated now. I think it would have been a huge drag on WDW's cash flow, and that Celebration reflects a far more developed idea of what "future living" should be.

Listening to the old EPCOT Center soundtracks on Live365 radio, I do miss the cockeyed optimism of the original Epcot, and its attractions. It's hard to imagine people today taking the old Universe of Energy seriously. Even in 1982, the Imagineers overestimated the desire of the average tourist to learn on vacation. And as technology has become a greater part of our lives, I get the feeling that people are far more pessimistic about the potential of technology to improve our lives. And as that happens, the focus on the "Future" world shifts from education to entertainment.

Still, I really wish I could take my kids on Horizons or World of Motion.

 

[joel_maxwell]

Very interesting thread.

Less bickering, please.

AMEN!

nice thread. interesting points about the comparison to our generation showing up at EPCOT and seeing technology from 25 years before 1982. kind of puts us in the place of teens of today.

 

[joel_maxwell]

Interesting thread, to say the least, though I'm not sure what motivated the original post. Nevertheless, I loved the old Epcot Center and I love the new Epcot. From a nostalgia standpoint, I wish I could ride some of the now-defunct attractions (original Figment, WoM, Horizons, old seacabs, UoE) but I also glad that we have new things like Test Track and Soarin'.

Here's a question I have. Is there still a significant number of people who consider Epcot's Future World to be boring (especially for kids)? The overall attendance figures for Epcot just don't seem to support the "Epcot is seen to be boring" line. Epcot is getting better and better, IMO.

much discussion about the changes to LS (now refered to as The Seas I guess) some like the changes inside, some dont, some like the changes outside some dont and when people care about things, they start to take them personally (it is human nature) and there inlies the problem. people debating their opinions and getting upset when others may not share the same views or respect them.

it is the nature of the beast in forums.

 

[DisneySaint]

Fantastic post I agree with 100%. I miss the "educational" Epcot that actually stayed to the Future World theme.

 

[CrashNet]

Very good post. It points out what is missed, but also points out those same missed things just wouldn't work in the Epcot of today. Change is hard. As humans we are very accustomed to falling into routine. Naturally, our brains have a hard time processing something that we took for granted no longer existing, so the response is generally one of anger or sadness. The greater the loss, the harder it is to cope.

Epcot is my all time favorite park, but what makes me love it is the atmosphere and its unique qualities. It's always changing for the times. Give you an example: in about 5 years, Epcot will say goodbye to Illuminations: Reflections of Earth. Just thinking of it going away brings sadness; however, cleaning the slate gives opportunity to introduce ideas never used, some never even thought possible, and I look forward to it.

 

[gboiler1]

Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but we've all seen the video snippet of Walt's Epcot drawing and vision, but were his specific ideas ever written down in detail? I mean other than the 3 level city and retractible dome?

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Back to the OP, I think the opinions are well thought out. I agree with some of them, I disagree with others. But, I think you have a well done argument presented here.

Where I think there is a point missing is that we are talking about Epcot's evolution alone. That, in and of itself, is a great thing. I deeply miss Horizons and WoM, but, at the time of their closing, there were simply too many of those types of experiences at Epcot. The replacement with TT and M:S I absolutely agree were good moves for longevity. Soarin' is perhaps the best example of this. They took an attraction that was very tired and objectively upgraded it. Big time. It was the same approach as Mission to Mars to AE.

Where the point arises is that there is a second evolution going on simultaneously. That is the marketing explosion in Disney as a whole. With new mechanisms for distributing content has come an obsession with marketing the Disney brand. And, most of that has fallen on the film characters. Now, that is an absolutely appropriate model because that has brought in large numbers of people. They love them, and they want that. Wannab raises an interesting question of why DF and Figment were OK. It really got me thinking, because I think IMAG was a botch. (and, I think Disney knows that and pretty much admits it. Puting that budget into a renovation and update of the actual ride would have been a much better move on about all counts. But, as some have said, mistakes happen.) Where it sits for me was the distinction between the film and movie characters and the characters that exist in these attractions. When I watch a 2 hour film, you (if done "correctly") understand and completely get to know the character. YOu know their story. You have seen it unfold. They ARE that story. That means, when you import them into something else, they are out of their element to some extent. The work of developing who they are has already been done, so there isn't much left for the imagination to do. In these attractions, you got a few seconds of watching them. They did one or two actions. You knew little to nothing about their background, but they were here and participating for some reason. Why? Where did Dreamfinder come from? What happened 5 minutes before the huge collision in WOM? The best example of this is HM. You have dozens of stories circulating about what each of these ghosts are because Disney never told you. They made YOU figure it out.

Now, I realize many will say 99% of guests never do this. That's too much work. But, I think Walt (and this is one for the few WWWD arguments I agree with) realized the importance of challenge to the conscious and subconscious mind. A famous example: he put leather straps on the carriage because people would notice it. Not literally, but it wouldn't feel right. Deep down, people want to learn, to explore, to create, to IMAGINE. When you start puting the characters that are already developed and loved, you import a direct storyline. All the imagining has been done for you. It goes back to another debate: book or film. The former allows much more input and mental action for the participant. It's up to you to create your version of the story.

EPCOT Center really challenged people to create their own future view off the little bits of information it provided. Even if it looked outdated, it was not shown as reality. It was like a painting, not a photograph. To me, it had just as much fantasy as MK, but it was a fantasy about the HOPE for tomorrow. Not what it WOULD be; what it COULD be. Unfortunately, that is a very lofty goal, and that needed (and has changed).

The new Epcot has started to take a very large step toward reality. It is presenting a view of what ACTUALLY is happening. Focusing much more on being a Worlds Fair. We have Achievement Showcase and World Showcase, and that works well. Again, TT, Soarin', M:S, and even the "new" UoE do this pretty darn well. They may not be lofty and artistic, but they are fun and just, plain "cool." The problem is that, with this new approach, the characters seem more out of place than ever. I really don't think that Nemo will have anything to do with the actual future of Sea exploration. Therefore, one either has to loosen their viewpoint as to what FW is (which is not really the traditional Disney way) or accept the reality that the characters are meant to appeal to the masses as cheap marketing tricks to get people through the pavilion doors. It begs the question: "Is the attraction good" or "Is this attraction okay, so they have to slap this on to get people to like it because a lollipop with the clown fish on it will sell."

Bottom line: I think Epcot is evolving, and I think the new approach works. Unfortunately, to have a cohesive theme, it really would be a more adult park focused on understanding and appreciating the reality of future achievements (although I think there would be plenty of opportunity to do more child-oriented aspects like M:S's post show attempts in a small way) OR it is abandoning its cohesiveness and becoming more of a hodgepodge that work individually but don't work as a whole (which, as many say, was the problem when the park openend in 1982).

 

[EpcotServo]

Dr Falls... thank you for the wonderful posts in this thread! :wave:



Why is it necessary to replace the logos? To give you (not directed AT you specifically) something else to complain about? I could just hear it now... they don't have the same symbiosis... they don't follow with the original concept... they are too modern and don't represent the true EPCOT feeling.

What is wrong with the blue color? It's a pavilion about WATER... portrayed for years by shades of blue. :veryconfu

And the sun... that was the most hideous example of being stuck in the 70's that could possibly still be around. Thank goodness it's part of history now.

"Seabase" as it's now called, makes no sense. If it's supposed to be a "Seabase" then why are there pictures of Nemo and friends on the wall? What research purpose do those serve? It makes no sense. Turtle Talk worked wonderfully with Seabase Alpha. I don't mind change. Heck, I love what they did to the Land. I support most changes. I'm just saying that they've taken away great stuff that could've been updated while keeping in touch with Epcot Center's roots. Like having new logos for Future World. They could've easily made one for Mission: Space and Test Track. Soarin's glider logo already fits the bill. I like change. But only when it makes sense. I like what they've done to the rock sign outside TLS. I think it'll be great if the seagulls react to the crashing waves. That would be great! I just feel that Nemo would've worked fine with a fresh new Seabase Alpha. I'll wait to see if this new ride works out the fact that the new "Seabase" is a jumbled mess of theming. But I'm guessing it will (as it is now) just serve as a waiting area for Turtle Talk and an exit. But if WDI cares, they'll give this "Seabase" a reason for being there.

 

[hcswingfield]

Very good post. It points out what is missed, but also points out those same missed things just wouldn't work in the Epcot of today. Change is hard. As humans we are very accustomed to falling into routine. Naturally, our brains have a hard time processing something that we took for granted no longer existing, so the response is generally one of anger or sadness. The greater the loss, the harder it is to cope.

Epcot is my all time favorite park, but what makes me love it is the atmosphere and its unique qualities. It's always changing for the times. Give you an example: in about 5 years, Epcot will say goodbye to Illuminations: Reflections of Earth. Just thinking of it going away brings sadness; however, cleaning the slate gives opportunity to introduce ideas never used, some never even thought possible, and I look forward to it.

I'll be sad if and when Illuminations is replaced as well. But it all goes back to the idea of living in the moment. Enjoy it now, and when it's gone, find something else to enjoy! You'll always have the memories, and can still make new memories.

 

[EpcotServo]

EPCOT Center really challenged people to create their own future view off the little bits of information it provided. Even if it looked outdated, it was not shown as reality. It was like a painting, not a photograph. To me, it had just as much fantasy as MK, but it was a fantasy about the HOPE for tomorrow. Not what it WOULD be; what it COULD be. Unfortunately, that is a very lofty goal, and that needed (and has changed).

Wonderful post! My feelings exactly!
:sohappy:

 

[musketeer]

*When rumors started circulating that The Land was about to get a major overhaul, with "Food Rocks" torn out, a "California Adventure" clone attraction installed, and the "Living with the Land" boat ride turned into a cruise ship port, the internet community went NUTS!!!! Guess what. The cruise ship thing was an unfounded rumor. "Soarin'" has become one of the most popular (and longest lines) of any WDW attraction. And nobody talks about the rehab anymore (presumably because it ain't all that bad).

This is interesting. I didn't know this was so controversial. In fact, I made my first visit in over 4 years last month, and I was thinking that The Land pavallion was just about the best at Epcot. It has a really good counter service restaurant, a good table service place, an always interesting boat ride/tour, an entertaining and informative movie, not to mention probably the best attraction in all of the Disney Parks (at least the 6 that I have been to). The Land is almost like a miniature park itself.

I was going to post a thread saying all of this, and maybe I'm glad I didn't because I didn't realize it may be one of those hot topics.