EPCOT failed - Epcot is great!

[RedSoxPirate]

Not feeling like reading through the middle 3 pages of this post and realizing there's no time like the present for a good first post, please pardon this humble messenger if any of the following has already been said.

EPCOT is not the Magic Kingdom. EPCOT (or Epcot or whatever) is a tribute to science, technology and any other pseudonym for the progress that humankind has and continues to make. A quote from the dedication plaque:

'"To all who come to this place of joy, hope and friendship, welcome."

"Epcot Center is inspired by Walt Disney's creative genius. Here, human achievements are celebrated through imagination, the wonders of enterprise, and concepts of a future that promises new and exciting benefits for all."​

​

"May Epcot Center entertain, inform and inspire. And, above all, may it instill a new sense of belief and pride in man's ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere."​

​

The point of Epcot has never been to bring the Disney characters to life -- the Magic Kingdom was created solely for that purpose. Just as MGM was dedicated to bringing the movies to life and DAK to bringing to life the animal world that previously existed only in storybooks, Epcot has its purpose in bringing to life the future world and the world outside our own narrow borders. Both Walt's dream and the reality (created by those "penny-pinchers" who "ruined Walt's vision" or whatever) confirm this as Epcot's mission and it is undeniable.


That said, the recent trend in the park is truly disheartening to those who love Epcot for it's own special place in Disneyana. The loss of an attraction like Horizons, which in this author's eye should have been the focal point of Epcot as it best represented the vision for the park, was devastating -- especially in light of the decision to replace it with a thrill ride aimed at the MTV generation. Do not get me wrong: the exploration of space certainly has a place in the park, as this is clearly a way of the future. But destroying that single attraction that best summed up the vision of the future world to create it ... what brass! Certainly, from time to time, attractions need a little sprucing and revitalizing, to keep them fresh ... but wholesale demolition? Destruction of the idea underlying them?

The destruction of Horizons marked the end to the mission of Epcot. No longer is it to cater to higher minds and purposes; no longer will it challenge us to think above and beyond that which presents to us in our own life; because that was not profitable (education never is). But, now Epcot will pander to the lowest in us. It has sacrificed everything in the name of entertainment and thrills.

That, I think, is what underlies any hostility some might have to the new TLS. Adding Nemo and the other Pixar-kinder more fully tears asunder Epcot from it's purpose. It's just one more step along the devolution of the greatest mindblowing experience. Nemo, Mickey et al. belong at MK; while I am slightly more inclined to allow the mouse (by whom this was all started, of course), other character experiences detract from what Epcot is and only serve to dilute the message.

Let us not forget what we are talking about: Epcot is more than a theme park; it is an idea. Epcot is more than entertainment; it is education. Why should Disney pander to those lower minds? Walt would NEVER have stood for it.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

Your first post was very moving and I personally appreciate it.

I have to admit, if anything about EPCOT Center was "beautiful" it was Horizons. With in that boring looking pavilion was a truly beautiful ride. We (as an internet community) could argue for all eternity whether or not Horizons being removed or World of Motion being removed was the better of choices.) In my opinion World of Motion would have been much easier to keep with merely a 1/4 of the ride needing an update, along with the transcenter.

I'm glad I saw Epcot for my first time in 1996. There was a great blend of both new and old. I do believe though that management got carried away with the mellenium celebration, and modern disney commercialism is very evident because of that "push" for 2000.

We CAN NOT bring Horizons or WoM back. 10 bucks says we'll have a much better imageworks and journey, and 3d film........some day!

Epcot in my honest opinion is almost done *give 3 years or so* with this current phase... (Phase 1 was 1982, Phase 2 was 1983, Phase 3 was 1986, Phase 4 was late 80s Phase 5 was Epcot 94 Epcot 95 Epcot for the 25th anniversary in 96,and currently phase 6 which is the gradual makeover starting in 1999 with the mellenium celebration.)

We can't stop it, we have no control. I love Epcot and will continue to go to it and appreciate it for whatever it is and what remains of the old school, and what new things come with new school.

I'm from "Generation Y" and yes I agree that it is horrible that Epcot's future world was torn to feed off of "cool" and "hip" trends involving the 3 minute attention span generation.

We CANNOT do a what would walt do scenerio. The children of yesteryear had longer attention spans, more discipline, and Disneyland brought in new discovery. EPCOT Center did the same thing in 1982, and then until 1993 it was no shock that there were those that did not like it.

People will forever hate Epcot and I mean Epcot post 1999. It is still among many uncool to like Epcot, and that is quite sad to me of the current generation.

I have no idea if this involves the living seas or not, but come on, the land was a great rehab, etc etc etc.

Just give future world a few more years to finally complete itself.

 

[RedSoxPirate]

Having taken a few more minutes to reflect (and read a few more of the back-posts), I have a few more comments to offer. The below poster, of all those in this thread, gets it -- this one truly gets it. However, I offer a few counterpoints that have crossed my mind as I was reading.

Where the point arises is that there is a second evolution going on simultaneously. That is the marketing explosion in Disney as a whole. With new mechanisms for distributing content has come an obsession with marketing the Disney brand. And, most of that has fallen on the film characters.

... I think Walt (and this is one for the few WWWD arguments I agree with) realized the importance of challenge to the conscious and subconscious mind. ... Deep down, people want to learn, to explore, to create, to IMAGINE. When you start puting the characters that are already developed and loved, you import a direct storyline. All the imagining has been done for you.

... EPCOT Center really challenged people to create their own future view off the little bits of information it provided. Even if it looked outdated, it was not shown as reality. It was like a painting, not a photograph. To me, it had just as much fantasy as MK, but it was a fantasy about the HOPE for tomorrow. Not what it WOULD be; what it COULD be. Unfortunately, that is a very lofty goal, and that needed (and has changed).

The new Epcot has started to take a very large step toward reality. It is presenting a view of what ACTUALLY is happening. Focusing much more on being a Worlds Fair. We have Achievement Showcase and World Showcase, and that works well. Again, TT, Soarin', M:S, and even the "new" UoE do this pretty darn well. They may not be lofty and artistic, but they are fun and just, plain "cool." The problem is that, with this new approach, the characters seem more out of place than ever. I really don't think that Nemo will have anything to do with the actual future of Sea exploration. Therefore, one either has to loosen their viewpoint as to what FW is (which is not really the traditional Disney way) or accept the reality that the characters are meant to appeal to the masses as cheap marketing tricks to get people through the pavilion doors. It begs the question: "Is the attraction good" or "Is this attraction okay, so they have to slap this on to get people to like it because a lollipop with the clown fish on it will sell."

Bottom line: I think Epcot is evolving, and I think the new approach works. Unfortunately, to have a cohesive theme, it really would be a more adult park focused on understanding and appreciating the reality of future achievements (although I think there would be plenty of opportunity to do more child-oriented aspects like M:S's post show attempts in a small way) OR it is abandoning its cohesiveness and becoming more of a hodgepodge that work individually but don't work as a whole (which, as many say, was the problem when the park openend in 1982).

I love the way you have phrased your argument here. Epcot (as were all the parks) was intended to be the realization of a dream -- not a fantastic dream of storybook proportions, but the dream of the future. (Quoting New Horizons: "Have you ever looked beyond today into the future?/Picturing the world we've yet to see? ... Have you ever dreamed the dream of the children?/Just imagine the magic your minds can see.) It was meant to challenge, continually, the minds of all its patrons to imagine the way things could be, not necessarily to celebrate just those things that currently thrive or are shortly down the pipeline. It was meant to inspire a new generation of scientists, engineers ... dreamers! And, in this, I think it was a roaring success, because it did make learning fun.

It's only in recent years that people have begun to complain loudly about Epcot being "boring" and that hearkens mostly to the attractions becoming dated. Physically, I too hated what Horizons became -- a jaundiced and wrinkled version of what it was. It likely would have taken far more than a new coat of paint to save it once the end was near -- perhaps, it should never have fallen into that state. But what makes me (and so many others) cherish it was the idea that underlay its foundations. Contrary to what some others have claimed in the course of this discussion, I believe the attractions of today are far more shortsighted than any of those original attractions ... just because they don't share that same spirit of invention, discovery and exploration. Honestly, how many years are we from a trip to Mars? 5? 10, at most? Then, we will be talking about how dated M:S is.

So, your concept of "Achievement World" is what troubles me. I agree entirely that that is what Epcot has become, but is that truly what it should be? Celebrating the accomplishments of today really limits the scope of what Epcot could and should offer -- that glimpse into the potential, that look past the veil that lies between what is and what could be and leaves all of us wondering about what we could contribute to achieve those lofty goals. That, to me, is what is missing from the current incarnation of Epcot and that is most troubling. Yes, the addition of characters increases the velocity at which the park is traveling away from its purpose, but it is not the end-all, be-all. It is the overall shift away from inspiration and motivation to high-fiving where we are and what is coming down the chute in the next few years because of the progress we have made. There is already an attraction that celebrates progress and it spins daily in the MK.

And, what's more, I think this is endemic not only of Disney, but of the times in which we live. Optimism was so much higher 25 years ago; optimism for a better world and our roles in crafting it. Now, we are content just to get through another day. Let's not abandon those lofty dreams that the original Epcot (both Walt's dream and that which was) made so tangible. Let's not let contentment and complacency keep us from reaching beyond those stars we see in our dreams.

I said it before and I believe it with all my heart: Epcot is more than a theme park; it is an idea; it is an idea that I hold very close to my heart. It is hope. It is promise. It is the potential within all of us. In the end, that is what it at stake here.

 

[rbrower]

Thank you for writing this!

 

[FigmentJedi]

Here's my two cents. The classic Epcot attractions, World of Motion, Horizons and Imagination were educational rides, that although loved by many Disney purists, did not pack in the guests, and more often than not, had less than a 10 minute wait. This could be a product of their capacity, but it was largely a product of their effects on guests. When Imagination changed, they improved the special effects, but in doing so - eliminated the heart of the attraction.

Brace yourself, I've got a soapbox and I'm not afraid to stand on it:

Regarding Imagination, despite it's fast load times, it was the most popular attraction at Epcot right behind Spaceship Earth before its closure. And the effects in the Millennium version were definitely NOT an improvement. Outside of the dissapearing Butterfly, they really were not that impressive and they were just completely random with no true thematic elements connecting them outside of signs indicating what particular lab it was in. In fact, part of why the original JII closed was how expensive it was to maintain all the special effects within the attraction, which actually totaled more then what the entire Magic Kingdom had on opening day. A Surround Sound Demo, a warped setpiece behind a giant magnifying glass, a fish on a stick swimming out of its tank, a brick randomly breaking through a glass coffee table, a large scale version of a Windows Media Visualizer with changing colors from sounds, a generic house set bolted to the ceiling, and a room full of a bunch of random fiberoptic lights that play connect the dots were not an improvement whatsoever to what the original had.

The original version ACTUALLY had the effects LINKED TOGETHER in a somewhat COHERENT STORYLINE! Eric Idle insulting the guests' imaginations and taking us through a bunch of random crap and then claiming our creativity has become supercharged and letting Figment out of his cage to say things that will boost our self esteem after being insulted by a former Python whose done much funnier, spontanious and creative stuff then a ride whose name is a complete misnomer does not a good theme park ride story make. If anything, instead of a Journey Into Your Imagination, it was a Journey to Guest Relations to Complain after Getting Off, especially considering it was the most hated attraction in the entire history of Walt Disney World by way of complaints.

JIIWF is very improved from the Millennium version, but it's still dwarfed in the shadow of the original and was somewhat of a quick fix. But at least now, there's a coherent storyline of Figment's rebellion against the Institute's confinement of open creative thought in the form of sabotaging the dull demonstrations of the Institute. Trouble is again, the effects aren't as good as the original as it relies primarily on projections with mediocre animation, the awful and well on its way to being overused smellitizer that is skunk/stinkbeetle odor, some of the stuff from before, and the old dark ride standby that is blacklit plywood setpieces. But again, JIIWF is loads better then the Millennium version

I'm sorry, I had to get that out of me. *steps down from soapbox*

 

[imagineer boy]

ok I just wanna start with i hate some of the Tackyness that has taken over Epcot(aka. The Seas). The Land Redo was fantastic, kept all the same elements of the pavilion but upgraded. Even tho i was sad to see World of Motion go, Test Track was a great replacement. I have a little beef with the layout of M:S, but it fits. The Seas with nemo and friends is just a joke. It took a great concept The Living Seas and mashed it into the ground. Don't get me wrong The Living Seas needed a major update but it could have been done in a much better way without showcasing a character out of it. last I remember it is located in future world. so thats my two cents. go ahead and flame me but i will never accept The Seas with nemo and friends.

I agree. While I've enjoyed many of the other new things at Epcot like Test Track and all the other things you said, I'm not a big fan of the Nemo redo myself. I think they could've just updated it to be more futuristic and cooler looking with more interactive exibits and a reopened sea cabs. I also miss the Hydrolaters, they were so cool and they really added the illusion that you were going down into the ocean really well.

 

[mousermerf]

I think you mistook what the Seacabs were Imagineer boy.. They really did stink.

As fascinating as going through the tunnels were, it really was a lame ride not worth waiting in line for...

I think adding track and show scenes - the way Nemo has - will make it a much better experience.

As for the pavilion makeover, I think it's nice, and I'm one of the few to have seen it in person.

It's very hard to capture the look of the building with a camera because it's so dark inside and so large - I really needed a tripod I didn't have at the moment. But, the blue-green metallic paint finally makes sense and doesn't look horrible and the mosaic/murals inside are very nice and well done. There's a lot of detail you cant see in the photos.

 

[headmouse2000]

That "great concept" was dead in the water... :lookaroun (sorry)

You don't want characters in FW, but haven't you also posted that you want Dreamfinder back and Figment shown in a better light? (I may have you mixed up with someone else..) Why would they be acceptable, but not Nemo and friends. They match the pavilion perfectly and Turtle Talk has already been a boon for the Seas. Instead of trashing it, why not wait and see how it turns out. If you actually try to visit with an open mind, you may be pleasantly surprised. Otherwise, you're just going to miss out because of some nostalgic view of an old worn out pavilion.

1. I dont think that was me
2. Figment was created for the Imagination Pavilion and he is sort of the spirit of the of the place. Nemo has was a popular character thrown into somewhere he shouldn't be, THE FUTURE.
3. all these things that they are putting into the seas are great ideas but belong somewhere else.

 

[wannab@dis]

Oh well... the thread was nice before it was invaded by the few that can't get out of the past...

And I'm sorry RedSoxPirate, but your posts have been a bunch of psychobabble and drivel that perfectly sums up why EPCOT Center had to go. Do you *really* think guests want this ... "challenge, continually, the minds of all its patrons to imagine the way things could be" ... or just maybe they wanted to have fun at a theme park? They wanted to be entertained... WDI had to quickly jump in and try to fix EPCOT from day one.

By the way... you keep making these little remarks about Epcot "pander[ing] to those low minds" or being dumbed down. You are in essence insulting anyone that happens to like the park now. I don't like it and expect an apology.

Horizons was let go because it just didn't pull enough crowds to warrant a good update and then was closed a year after being down for a rehab. The premise just wasn't viable any longer and needed replacement. I'm sorry you miss an attraction, but it's time to move out of the past.

 

[wannab@dis]

1. I dont think that was me
2. Figment was created for the Imagination Pavilion and he is sort of the spirit of the of the place. Nemo has was a popular character thrown into somewhere he shouldn't be, THE FUTURE.
3. all these things that they are putting into the seas are great ideas but belong somewhere else.

Ahh... gotcha.

So if they had created a "Nemo-like" character for the Seas originally, it would have been ok.

:brick:

 

[wdwishes2005]

Oh well... the thread was nice before it was invaded by the few that can't get out of the past...

And I'm sorry RedSoxPirate, but your posts have been a bunch of psychobabble and drivel that perfectly sums up why EPCOT Center had to go. Do you *really* think guests want this ... "challenge, continually, the minds of all its patrons to imagine the way things could be" ... or just maybe they wanted to have fun at a theme park? They wanted to be entertained... WDI had to quickly jump in and try to fix EPCOT from day one.

By the way... you keep making these little remarks about Epcot "pander[ing] to those low minds" or being dumbed down. You are in essence insulting anyone that happens to like the park now. I don't like it and expect an apology.

Horizons was let go because it just didn't pull enough crowds to warrant a good update and then was closed a year after being down for a rehab. The premise just wasn't viable any longer and needed replacement. I'm sorry you miss an attraction, but it's time to move out of the past.

Must you turn everything into an arguement? You are putting words in his mouth.

 

[wannab@dis]

Must you turn everything into an arguement? You are putting words in his mouth.

No I didn't... It was quoted. :wave:

 

[wdwishes2005]

Im getting out of this. some people just don't know how to act online......

 

[dxwwf3]

I think Epcot is currently the best park at WDW. Do I think Epcot in it's current state is as good as it was in the late 80's/early 90's? HECK NO! But that doesn't mean that what is there now can't be enjoyed. I personally found the edutainment aspect of EPCOT Center to be much more entertaining than anything you would find at an amusement park, such as a Six Flags or Cedar Point. But I am the minority and I think people with similar viewpoints have to realize this, and I think most do. Of course, that doesn't mean I do not enjoy basic thrill rides or mega coasters because I do, but I would take a classic Epcot dark ride over them any day.

I think what was done at the Land was an extremely positive change and it really took me off guard. And from what I've seen so far with the Seas is just as positive. I think this change is going to be for the positive and it looks like the characterization isn't going to be very overwhelming at all. The design of the characters used in merf's great photo update look like they fit in very well. They do not look like something you could easily transplant into the Magic Kingdom, for instance.

I do fell, however, that Disney characters should be kept out of World Showcase attractions as much as possible though. FW and WS are two different beasts, IMO.

 

[wannab@dis]

I think Epcot is currently the best park at WDW.

Guess we're part of the "lowest mind" group. :lol:

 

[headmouse2000]

Guess we're part of the "lowest mind" group. :lol:

are you 5 yrs old?

 

[dxwwf3]

Guess we're part of the "lowest mind" group. :lol:

Remember, I did say that the late 80's/early 90's Epcot was better :lol: :wave:

 

[wannab@dis]

are you 5 yrs old?

Read the posts and then let's discuss something without the need for "lowest mind" jabber.

If you really believe that the best thing for TWDC is to have an entire section of a park with outdated, dead and boring attractions, then I guess that's ok. But let's remember Disney is a business. If you expect them to keep the magic working and keep building new attractions like EE, then they HAVE to generate the capital necessary for such investments.

The problem with some people is they are extremely short-sighted or just selfish. EPCOT left as it was would be a ghosttown today and that is not good for our future enjoyment. :wave:

 

[wannab@dis]

Remember, I did say that the late 80's/early 90's Epcot was better :lol: :wave:

Yep, and I would agree TWENTY years ago.

 

[dxwwf3]

Yep, and I would agree TWENTY years ago.

Better is better, IMO. Crank isn't a better movie than Citizen Kane just because Crank came out last week.

I get the business argument and really you are right, but that has nothing to do with one's enjoyment of something. If I had to choose one time period of Epcot to visit, you can bet I'll choose somewhere around 1990. But I don't think about that when I enter the gates now. I just think about how much fun I'm about to have.