Elemental (Pixar - June 2023)

[WoundedDreamer]

That is not at all what I said. I'm not sure if you're intentionally not reading or what.

There are certainly ways to trim costs to lower budgets for an animation film, and according to the Pixar executive they are looking for ways to trim costs. But what was also said is their budget has more added in, such as Creative Executive pay, than other animation studios.

And with some exception Disney Animation and Pixar are still both creating stories that folks want to see. As noted by the legs that Elemental has seen. Remember that the audience is still being retrained to see Disney Animation and Pixar movies in theaters instead of waiting for them to appear on D+.

Pixar has suffered a significant loss of inherent brand trust. It used to be that Pixar could reliably generate strong openings through loyalty to the brand alone. Overtime, loyalty to the brand has eroded to the point that audiences have to be cajoled into the theaters. While it's true that theaters have not been as successful since the pandemic, it's hard to argue that Pixar is undamaged. Elemental is unlikely to meaningfully change the perception of Pixar as a brand in decline. It is better than losing money, but the fact that we're celebrating a Pixar movie breaking even shows the terrible transformation that has taken place.

 

[Disney Irish]

Pixar has suffered a significant loss of inherent brand trust. It used to be that Pixar could reliably generate strong openings through loyalty to the brand alone. Overtime loyalty the brand has eroded to the point that audiences have to be cajoled into the theaters. While it's true that theaters have not been as successful since the pandemic, it's hard to argue that Pixar is undamaged. Elemental is unlikely to meaningfully change the perception of Pixar as a brand in decline. It is better than losing money, but the fact that we're celebrating a Pixar movie breaking even shows the terrible transformation that has taken place.

So other than Lightyear, which is only a single film, what other stuff do you believe has caused a significant loss of brand trust?

I mean even the pandemic releases, Onward, Soul, Luca, and Turning Red, were all fairly well received by most audiences.

 

[WoundedDreamer]

So other than Lightyear, which is only a single film, what other stuff do you believe has caused a significant loss of brand trust?

I mean even the pandemic releases, Onward, Soul, Luca, and Turning Red, were all fairly well received by most audiences.

Now that's an interesting question. The exact cause of Pixar's decline is murky. Elemental's weak gross is indicative a broader struggle for the filmmaker to draw people out on the strength of the brand alone. Again, I'm hesitant to give an exact cause. What I can tell you is that all through the 2000s and 2010s Pixar's name on the marquee was enough to ensure success. Only the fluke Good Dinosaur was an outlier.

 

[Disney Irish]

Now that's an interesting question. The exact cause of Pixar's decline is murky. Elemental's weak gross is indicative a broader struggle for the filmmaker to draw people out on the strength of the brand alone. Again, I'm hesitant to give an exact cause. What I can tell you is that all through the 2000s and 2010s Pixar's name on the marquee was enough to ensure success. Only the fluke Good Dinosaur was an outlier.

So then is it possible that its not a brand issue but rather an audience that has been trained by the 4 pandemic releases to expect to see Pixar films on D+ instead of theaters?

Basically what I'm saying is that this idea that the Pixar "brand" is now persona non grata is a bit overblown in my opinion.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Based on what Pixar President Jim Morris says, it'll be profitable during its theatrical run.

Oh boy! The president of Pixar said it. It must me true, after all, he has no reason to lie.

You should see it in theaters.

Why? Watching movies at home is the best thing ever today! Crystal clear big screens, rewind, pause, fast forward, all the snacks I could ever want right in my kitchen! And I can pause the movie while I get my snack!

 

[Disney Irish]

Oh boy! The president of Pixar said it. It must me true, after all, he has no reason to lie.

And yet he is the person who has access to all the financials, box office receipts, and real production budgets, we don't. We have estimates, that can at times be way off.

So yeah I'm going to go with the guy who has access to all the real data.

Why? Watching movies at home is the best thing ever today! Crystal clear big screens, rewind, pause, fast forward, all the snacks I could ever want right in my kitchen! And I can pause the movie while I get my snack!

So you say you want stories that bring people out to the theater but aren't willing to go out to the theater yourself. Got it. So you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Disstevefan1]

So you say you want stories that bring people out to the theater but aren't willing to go out to the theater yourself. Got it. So you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is.

I prefer to purchase and watch movies at home and I won't apologize for it.

My point is if the world is still going call a movie a success by the box office, they gotta get folks to show up and buy tickets.

"So you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is". That's just funny. You have no idea the truckloads of money I spent on all variety Disney products. Actually I don't want to know either

 

[DKampy]

Why? Watching movies at home is the best thing ever today! Crystal clear big screens, rewind, pause, fast forward, all the snacks I could ever want right in my kitchen! And I can pause the movie while I get my snack!

People say this… I am not sure what theaters you go to… maybe they are trash, but I yet to see someone’s home theaters match what I get at my local theater…nothing pulls me in or compares then my local theater with huge screen and great Dolby surround sound… plus I don’t have the distractions I have at home…

 

[Disney Irish]

I prefer to purchase and watch movies at home and I won't apologize for it.

I'm not saying you should apologize for it. Just when you say "The only solution is to create stories that will get folks to buy tickets and go to the theater. " but then fail to buy a ticket yourself, you end up being part of the problem of an audience not showing up.

My point is if the world is still going call a movie a success by the box office, they gotta get folks to show up and buy tickets.

Well that is a different topic, and in my opinion the idea of the box office being the sole factor for a movies "success" is not only outdated, its overblown.

Many a movie over the years have been deemed not a success during its theatrical run but end up being successful post-theatrical.

And we're not talking cult movies, we're talking actual cinematic masterpieces -

Citizen Cane
Its a Wonderful Life
Cleopatra
Shawshank Redemption
Big Lewbowski
Fight Club

I honestly think we need to separate this idea of a film's success from the box office.

"So you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is". That's just funny. You have no idea the truckloads of money I spent on all variety Disney products. Actually I don't want to know either

Not at all the point, but I'm pretty sure a majority of us on this site spend way more than we'd like to admit on Disney products.

 

[Disney Irish]

People say this… I am not sure what theaters you go to… maybe they are trash, but I yet to see someone’s home theaters match what I get at my local theater…nothing pulls me in or compares then my local theater with huge screen and great Dolby surround sound… plus I don’t have the distractions I have at home…

Home theaters can get pretty close especially if one is willing to spend the money, but I agree overall. Its the experience of going to the theater for me, rather than the "quality".

 

[Disstevefan1]

Many a movie over the years have been deemed not a success during its theatrical run but end up being successful post-theatrical.
And we're not talking cult movies, we're talking actual cinematic masterpieces -

Citizen Cane
Its a Wonderful Life
Cleopatra
Shawshank Redemption
Big Lewbowski
Fight Club

AGREED!
Citizen Cane - great movie in my opinion.
We watch It's a Wonderful life EVERY year, multiple times
Fight Club. My neighbor was in that movie, the character Lou. Oh boy, I just checked IMDB, he passed in 2021

I honestly think we need to separate this idea of a film's success from the box office.

AGREED! But in my opinion, the world will never change.

I'm pretty sure a majority of us on this site spend way more than we'd like to admit on Disney products.

AGREED! We spent too much on Disney and continue to do so, just not movie tickets in our case.

SEE WE AGREE ON A LOT OF THINGS!

 

[Disney Irish]

AGREED! But in my opinion, the world will never change.

Those critical of certain films or studio management will always point to the box office as barometer for whatever their grievance, so that will never change.

However I think with streaming and the post-theatrical market many, even in the industry, as starting to given less credence to the box office as being the sole determining factors for a movies success. Heck, its even part of the strike topics when it comes to compensation.

So I do see the world changing on this sentiment.

SEE WE AGREE ON A LOT OF THINGS!

Well its nice when posters can agree on things....

 

[doctornick]

So other than Lightyear, which is only a single film, what other stuff do you believe has caused a significant loss of brand trust?

I mean even the pandemic releases, Onward, Soul, Luca, and Turning Red, were all fairly well received by most audiences.

I don't think it's one thing, but there was definitely a sense that Onward (which did little in the brief time it was in theaters) and then the D+ films were all not up to Pixar's standards. Not that they were bad per se but that they were below the high standards previously set by Pixar. Also, Turning Red in particular seems to be somewhat divisive. So, I thing over that time, there was a shift in people's attitudes of "Pixar is so good, I'm going to run out and see all their films" to "well, I guess I'll see that Pixar film when I get the chance" then Lightyear was definitely not well received (and Strange World on top of that which contributed to diminishing the overall Disney animated brand, which Pixar is a part of) and I definitely think there is a trend where Pixar is now amongst the pack of just "regular" animated films and not its own special draw.

And, yes, the pandemic (which has dampened box office sales) and streaming (which has led to more people "waiting" for films) play a role too but Pixar's drop was more precarious than others. Of course, when you have a higher ledge, it's a bigger fall so there's that.

But I do hope that Elemental's generally good word of mouth and strong "legs" will help to rehab Pixar's image. There's always going to be a lag where you have to have something change the attitude and it's the next film that will get the "benefit of the doubt" and potentially a better opening/strong pre-sales and anticipation.

 

[doctornick]

People say this… I am not sure what theaters you go to… maybe they are trash, but I yet to see someone’s home theaters match what I get at my local theater…nothing pulls me in or compares then my local theater with huge screen and great Dolby surround sound… plus I don’t have the distractions I have at home…

Meh. Everyone is different. To me, the reason to go see a film in the theater is:

1. Avoid spoilers
2. Being a part of the conversation for popular new media ("water cooler talk")
3. sometimes it is nice to be in a full theater and having the ambiance of the audience all responding

I personally don't care much about the video or sound, but I've never been all that awed by the big screen. I'm also one of those people who doesn't get worked up by "the special effects were so poor" either so whatever. I'm mainly focused on the plot and story.

If I could watch a movie at my home on the same day it is released in theaters, even at an inflated price, I would do that virtually 100% of the time. I loved Premiere Access for Disney+. So much to watch on my schedule, not have to drive to the theater, sit where I want, grab my own food, pause and go to the bathroom, whatever. Much better experience.

 

[Disney Irish]

I don't think it's one thing, but there was definitely a sense that Onward (which did little in the brief time it was in theaters) and then the D+ films were all not up to Pixar's standards. Not that they were bad per se but that they were below the high standards previously set by Pixar. Also, Turning Red in particular seems to be somewhat divisive. So, I thing over that time, there was a shift in people's attitudes of "Pixar is so good, I'm going to run out and see all their films" to "well, I guess I'll see that Pixar film when I get the chance" then Lightyear was definitely not well received (and Strange World on top of that which contributed to diminishing the overall Disney animated brand, which Pixar is a part of) and I definitely think there is a trend where Pixar is now amongst the pack of just "regular" animated films and not its own special draw.

And, yes, the pandemic (which has dampened box office sales) and streaming (which has led to more people "waiting" for films) play a role too but Pixar's drop was more precarious than others. Of course, when you have a higher ledge, it's a bigger fall so there's that.

But I do hope that Elemental's generally good word of mouth and strong "legs" will help to rehab Pixar's image. There's always going to be a lag where you have to have something change the attitude and it's the next film that will get the "benefit of the doubt" and potentially a better opening/strong pre-sales and anticipation.

I know some people on the internet say the quality/standards was somehow diminished with recent Pixar films like Onward and Turning Red, but I don't buy that.

Quality is subjective, to me all these films have been up to the same standards as Pixar movies in the past. So to me this is not a valid argument overall. So I really do think this gets back to the whole streaming aspect as being the largest factor.

Hopefully with Elemental that has changed the conversation, and Elio will be back to normal.

 

[Phroobar]

Now that's an interesting question. The exact cause of Pixar's decline is murky. Elemental's weak gross is indicative a broader struggle for the filmmaker to draw people out on the strength of the brand alone. Again, I'm hesitant to give an exact cause. What I can tell you is that all through the 2000s and 2010s Pixar's name on the marquee was enough to ensure success. Only the fluke Good Dinosaur was an outlier.

Peter Sohn directed both Good Dinosaur and Elemental.
I don't think Pete Docter should let that guy direct anymore.

 

[Phroobar]

I know some people on the internet say the quality/standards was somehow diminished with recent Pixar films like Onward and Turning Red, but I don't buy that.

Quality is subjective, to me all these films have been up to the same standards as Pixar movies in the past. So to me this is not a valid argument overall. So I really do think this gets back to the whole streaming aspect as being the largest factor.

Hopefully with Elemental that has changed the conversation, and Elio will be back to normal.

Pixar has been doing the same old buddy picture movie forever. Looking at the animation style of Elio compared to Spiderman or TMNT or Puss n' Boots there is nothing to get excited about. Even Inside Out 2 won't push the bar or make people want to see the movie. It is the same old stuff.

 

[Disney Irish]

Pixar has been doing the same old buddy picture movie forever. Looking at the animation style of Elio compared to Spiderman or TMNT or Puss n' Boots there is nothing to get excited about. Even Inside Out 2 won't push the bar or make people want to see the movie. It is the same old stuff.

I don't personally get excited by the specific animation styles at all, as I don't think that it in itself adds much to the story. Plus every studio to me has a "style" they start out with, which then tries to get copied among all the studios. Like for example TMNT looks pretty similar to both Spiderverse's and Last Wish, ie the 2.5D animation style, so it becomes old hat.

So to me it all comes back to the story, is it interesting enough to hold my attention. And personally I can say that like with TMNT for example, because I know their backstory from the other iterations, there was nothing new for me, other than teen April and Splinter have an afro I found it mostly predictable and boring because it was all done before.

 

[Phroobar]

I don't personally get excited by the specific animation styles at all, as I don't think that it in itself adds much to the story. Plus every studio to me has a "style" they start out with, which then tries to get copied among all the studios. Like for example TMNT looks pretty similar to both Spiderverse's and Last Wish, ie the 2.5D animation style, so it becomes old hat.

So to me it all comes back to the story, is it interesting enough to hold my attention. And personally I can say that like with TMNT for example, because I know their backstory from the other iterations, there was nothing new for me, other than teen April and Splinter have an afro I found it mostly predictable and boring because it was all done before.

All we know so far about Wish is the art type (2.5D animation) and the usual princess and talking animal buddy. People may do "a been there, done that before" and wait until Disney+ in February.

 

[BrianLo]

The closest off shore they are getting is the Disney studios here in Vancouver, which I doubt saves them that much money.


Also with talks of animators / VFX artists wanting to unionize…

Pixar also had a studio branch in Vancouver until like 2013 as well. They were just doing shorts and I assume on the more expensive side. They were located in Gas Town, so I can't imagine cheap office space... though I've just learned ILM moved in after the acquisition.

In a fun fact moment, I got to visit it in 2012. There was something they were working on that I honestly have no idea what it was but never saw the light of day. Some sort of dark creatures/monsters that was distinctly un-Monsters Inc.