Elemental (Pixar - June 2023)

[Sir_Cliff]

I think calling it toxic fan culture may be a little extreme. Toxic fan culture is harassing actors/actresses because you didn't like the movie they were in. Not hoping Disney takes its lumps because they're anti-consumer. I don't really think that's toxic.... irrational maybe, abut not 'toxic.'

If you have negative feelings towards Disney, chances are you want Disney to do poorly financially as recompense for conducting their business in a way you don't like. So I don't find it strange that 'fans' are rooting against the company.

A lot of people have been huge Disney fans their entire lives. When the company you've supported for that long starts to openly disrespect its fans, disregard them, decrease the quality of their products and conduct business in a way that negatively affects its customers, it should be unsurprising that people get a little ticked off and start to just wish ill on Disney as a whole.

I think what you're describing, though, is along the lines of what is meant by the term "toxic fandom". One extreme variant of that is harassing actors and actresses or other creative professionals. But it also involves this kind of hostility not based on subjective judgements of the quality of, in this case, Disney films, but a sense that Disney as something you cared about is personally disrespecting you through the entertainment it is produces. This is then translated into an effort to wrest back control of what they are producing mainly through this kind of relentless negativity in the fan community.

To be clear, I am not saying you are toxic nor that everyone needs to be positive about anything they don't like. You and I have agreed on other threads about things we see as highly negative in the parks. In general, I am of the opinion that Disney has made visiting WDW too complicated and expensive for it to be worth it for the time being.

What we were talking about here, though, is thread after thread full of people gleefully rubbing their hands over the prospect of films failing they both haven't seen and don't have any interest in seeing as a way of sticking it to Disney. In this case, the reviews aren't even particularly bad and it is supposed to be the thing everyone wants: an original story. Without seeing it, though, people are declaring that it needs to fail because the story isn't good or original enough as what I think is a fig leaf for a more general desire to see Disney suffer.

I personally think there is something toxic about people deliberately going from thread to thread solely to celebrate the failure of films they have absolutely no interest in. I welcome discussion and a diversity of opinions, but relentless heckling is not the same as well-founded criticism.

Exactly. What is striking to me is not that people don't find certain films appealing. In my case, I never bothered seeing Lightyear or Strange World, for example, as neither really appealed. What is striking is that there seem to be a small group dedicated solely to predicting and cheering on the failure of film after film.

 

[Chi84]

In the other thread toxic has been expanded to “people who haven’t seen the movie yet.”

In fairness, that was a request made by a mod early in the thread before the film was released apparently in response to non-stop posting by one person.

It doesn’t apply anymore, but limiting film critiques to those who have seen the film is not a novel idea. No one shows up at a book club explaining that they didn’t read the book because it didn’t sell too many copies and they hope the author writes something different next time.

I do appreciate the fact that box office is a measure of a film’s success and there has been a good deal of reasoned discussion on that issue. But simply noting over and over again that the film is not doing well doesn’t really add anything.

 

[TalkingHead]

So anyway, while this has pulled into the positive side on RT, if you scratch the surface you’ll notice a lot of the positive reviews are 2.5 stars. Metacritic gives a more accurate picture with their 58 score. The consensus seems to be it’s a flawed or underwhelming story. I thought Pixar prided themselves on spending whatever money it takes to work out story beats. Really makes me increasingly skeptical of Inside Out 2.

 

[erasure fan1]

I thought Pixar prided themselves on spending whatever money it takes to work out story beats. Really makes me increasingly skeptical of Inside Out 2.

That seemed to be a Lassiter thing. From the things I read, he wasn't afraid to retool a story to get it right if it wasn't working. Disney seems to be more of the, if it's not working, just try your best to reduce the damage.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Elemental Review - IGN

Visually, Pixar is in absolutely top form with Elemental. Unfortunately, the story is way too thin and none of it makes any sense.

www.ign.com

Even Disney shill sites don’t like it.

Uh-Oh!!

So.. the site gives a Disney move a thumbs-down and you still call it a "shill site"?

This is the very definition of toxic fandom.

And lack of good faith discussion.

 

[BlakeW39]

I think what you're describing, though, is along the lines of what is meant by the term "toxic fandom".

Well, I guess whether or not it's toxic depends on how you say things man. If you're being outwardly rude or hostile towards other posters, then 100% that's toxic, I agree. But if they're just saying they hope the film fails, in a way that isn't disrespecting any other human beings, then I wouldn't call that toxic, respectfully. You can hope the film succeeds, you can hope it fails, those are both just opinions. Where things get toxic is when you start inflicting harm on others based on those opinions. At least, that's how I see things.

 

[Trauma]

So.. the site gives a Disney move a thumbs-down and you still call it a "shill site"?

This is the very definition of toxic fandom.

And lack of good faith discussion.

This is a site that gave Last Jedi a freaking 10/10 score.

Come again?

 

[MisterPenguin]

This is a site that gave Last Jedi a freaking 10/10 score.

Come again?

Did I say "toxic fandom"? My apologies. I meant "Fandom Menace."

 

[Trauma]

Did I say "toxic fandom"? My apologies. I meant "Fandom Menace."

Your right it was a 10/10.

Just like that Star-cruiser right?

 

[BuddyThomas]

Seeing it in a half hour. I’ll report back.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Well, I guess whether or not it's toxic depends on how you say things man. If you're being outwardly rude or hostile towards other posters, then 100% that's toxic, I agree. But if they're just saying they hope the film fails, in a way that isn't disrespecting any other human beings, then I wouldn't call that toxic, respectfully. You can hope the film succeeds, you can hope it fails, those are both just opinions. Where things get toxic is when you start inflicting harm on others based on those opinions. At least, that's how I see things.

Hoping something succeeds or fails, though, is not an opinion, but a a desire for something to happen.

An analogy I would use is two friends in a group breaking up and the one who was broken up with constantly talking about how they wanted their ex-partner to fail. They may be perfectly polite in expressing that desire, but I still think everyone in the group would find that impulse pretty toxic. In a fan context such as this, you mention people feeling disrespected by a company and it being natural for them to go from thread to thread on fan forums wishing failure upon the company in all its endeavours just on principle without needing firsthand knowledge of the thing they're talking about. I do think that's both toxic and unproductive and, at times, makes these forums a drag to read.

But, I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[Figgy1]

Seeing it in a half hour. I’ll report back.

Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Smugpugmug]

I've been reading this thread for a while as a lurker (along with the TLM one). Just thought I'd hop in and say that I'm currently at an AMC waiting for my screening of Across the Spiderverse to start and there is a showing for Elemental that is starting soon and there is a HUGE crowd waiting to enter their theater. Crowd looks to be mostly families with kids. In the moment, I forgot that it was coming out tomorrow (or it's out already) but I was very surprised to see this many people show up. Personally I don't have any interest in this movie as it looks a little boring IMO but I don't want it to fail.

 

[TsWade2]

Yoo hoo!

 

[wtyy21]

 

[GimpYancIent]

Is that good?

It just means a lot of locations are showing it, hence more opportunities to see it, but how much audience numbers plus how it is received will not be visible until monday.

 

[TsWade2]

It just means a lot of locations are showing it, hence more opportunities to see it, but how much audience numbers plus how it is received will not be visible until monday.

Right.

 

[BrianLo]

Forget about the team and move on with life.

Or hope that things get so bad that everyone gets fired and a rebuild can begin.

Well I’m choosing the later here.

Ya I get that view. I think where I get lost is when the company has a 'win' - aka an original and Pixar formula, but we still want it to lose because we hate the management.

It's almost like if you hate the General Manager so much you are disappointed that your team wins. Are you even a fan of the team or just a former fan?

Another thing (not you specifically) is that we have people cheering for Pixar to be closed. How is that a rebuild? Is that really fandom or is it just veiled hatred of the company? I don't care how bad Walt Disney Animation gets, it's kind of hearsay to claim one was ever a fan if they want the studio to close shop rather than have a successful movie they don't personally care for.

I guess one could make the tarnished legacy comment. But again the legacy wouldn't be tarnished if the movie was good... starting from the position of hoping it isn't doesn't seem like one cares about the legacy that much.

 

[BuddyThomas]

I've now seen the film. It's fine. The reviews are pretty accurate, as is the Rotten Tomatoes score. It is solid and quite enjoyable, but honestly, not one of Pixar's best, although it retains the tried and true tearjerker moments of the classic Pixar movies. I admit that I teared up a few times. It's very emotional toward the end - a combination of a very sincere love story between two beings that simply cannot be with each other and a father/daughter love story that is very moving, paired with an immigration message that was more powerful than I was expecting. The world building of this film is amazing. Element City is full of surprises and some of the artistry in the animation is stunning. On the other hand, it takes a long time for this to get going, and the middle of the film sort of drags. However, as mentioned, it has an extremely emotional payoff at the end and overall, Disney/Pixar has absolutely nothing to be ashamed about here. It's a good movie, and I hope it finds an audience. PS - It starts with an UP short, "Carl's Date", and that one tries to make you cry as well. It is cute and sweet, but probably unnecessary.

 

[BlakeW39]

Hoping something succeeds or fails, though, is not an opinion, but a a desire for something to happen.

An analogy I would use is two friends in a group breaking up and the one who was broken up with constantly talking about how they wanted their ex-partner to fail. They may be perfectly polite in expressing that desire, but I still think everyone in the group would find that impulse pretty toxic. In a fan context such as this, you mention people feeling disrespected by a company and it being natural for them to go from thread to thread on fan forums wishing failure upon the company in all its endeavours just on principle without needing firsthand knowledge of the thing they're talking about. I do think that's both toxic and unproductive and, at times, makes these forums a drag to read.

But, I guess we can agree to disagree.

I mean, you're definitely right on some level. Bouncing around from thread to thread just spewing hate about things people like would be pretty toxic. I can also understand how seemingly baseless negativity can make these threads a drag to read. But I also believe we as consumers have the right to hope products we dislike, fail. That's very different from hoping your ex fails in a relationship because they broke up with you. But I suppose this is all very subjective.

To tie this back into the thread topic of Elemental, we'll see how it does. I mean I have my own predictions on how the film will do, but I'll wait to see how everything pans out.