Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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Condorman

Active Member
...and can you believe Disney is actually building a park without a shopping mall (Main Street)? :lol:

I'm not sure why people, including Disney, keep saying this. Maybe to confuse or diffuse the true plans? Maybe the concept art is in a state of flux and purposely misleading?

There may not be a "Main Street" leading up to the Storybook Castle in the traditional sense, but if you look at the art they did supply, offset to the left, there is an entire town akin to a Main Street with nearly (at least at a glance) twice as many buildings and POS possibilities. This area is also clearly within the berm of the park, so it's not some exterior retail/dining mixed-used facility.

Anyway, that's how I -- and I suspect many -- will forevermore view SDL... as a Magic Kingdom askew, off-kilter, and 23° to the left.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I'm not sure why people, including Disney, keep saying this. Maybe to confuse or diffuse the true plans? Maybe the concept art is in a state of flux and purposely misleading?

There may not be a "Main Street" leading up to the Storybook Castle in the traditional sense, but if you look at the art they did supply, offset to the left, there is an entire town akin to a Main Street with nearly (at least at a glance) twice as many buildings and POS possibilities. This area is also clearly within the berm of the park, so it's not some exterior retail/dining mixed-used facility.

Anyway, that's how I -- and I suspect many -- will forevermore view SDL... as a Magic Kingdom askew, off-kilter, and 23° to the left.

Concept art is just that, but the basic footprint and program are probably pretty solid. What it ends up looking like is another thing entirely. Bob Weis turns in nice projects, as we see the DCA upgrades are taking shape, so this should be no different.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why people, including Disney, keep saying this. Maybe to confuse or diffuse the true plans? Maybe the concept art is in a state of flux and purposely misleading?

There may not be a "Main Street" leading up to the Storybook Castle in the traditional sense, but if you look at the art they did supply, offset to the left, there is an entire town akin to a Main Street with nearly (at least at a glance) twice as many buildings and POS possibilities. This area is also clearly within the berm of the park, so it's not some exterior retail/dining mixed-used facility.

People are surprised because for at least fifteen years, Disney has used Main Street primarily as a shopping mall for last-minute purchases as Guests leave the park. Shopping was always the dominant factor on Main Street, but Disney has slowly removed legitimate attractions (arcades, theaters, etc) in favor of more retail. I guess Epcot and DAK have proven a park doesn't need a corridor of stores to move merchandise.

Anyway, I admire WDI's decision to omit MS, as most of mainland China wouldn't relate to classic Americana. I also can't help but wonder how much China dictated that classic America would not be involved in this park. :lol:

Concept art is just that, but the basic footprint and program are probably pretty solid. What it ends up looking like is another thing entirely. Bob Weis turns in nice projects, as we see the DCA upgrades are taking shape, so this should be no different.
True, SDL should be gorgeous.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why people, including Disney, keep saying this. Maybe to confuse or diffuse the true plans? Maybe the concept art is in a state of flux and purposely misleading?

There may not be a "Main Street" leading up to the Storybook Castle in the traditional sense, but if you look at the art they did supply, offset to the left, there is an entire town akin to a Main Street with nearly (at least at a glance) twice as many buildings and POS possibilities. This area is also clearly within the berm of the park, so it's not some exterior retail/dining mixed-used facility.

Anyway, that's how I -- and I suspect many -- will forevermore view SDL... as a Magic Kingdom askew, off-kilter, and 23° to the left.

Condorman in the house!

Welcome Condorman. :wave:
 

krash9924

Member
Mr. Sotto,

You mentioned earlier in the discussion that you would always be haunted by DLP, what did you mean? Why was DLP so far over budget?

Also, What was the idea that you hated the most but management made you complete it? Is there anything in your work at Disney that you wish you could have back or done better?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Mr. Sotto,

You mentioned earlier in the discussion that you would always be haunted by DLP, what did you mean? Why was DLP so far over budget?

Also, What was the idea that you hated the most but management made you complete it? Is there anything in your work at Disney that you wish you could have back or done better?

DLP was perceived internally to be a failure of epic proportions. A project that was passionately supported by Eisner, and that was considered to be a "home run", but given it's poor profitability, was soon blamed for being "too good". "Too much design and detail,you should have done it cheaper". Blame the prisoners for escaping thru the unguarded, open gates. Although this is true, we could have easily done it cheaper, we were competing with Paris, a place that blows Disneyland away in it's finish quality and detail. We paved Main street in Red Brick because who would buy into asphalt as being 1890's? They are just now asphalting over the cobblestones in Paris. Frank Wells told us to make the arcades as beautiful as Main Street, then we are blamed for that very thing. Had Europeans been the T shirt and plush buying consumers that the business plan hoped they would be, this would not have been an issue. Lots of miscalculations. All would be forgotten under a mountain of inbound cash. The good news is that with European guests DLP is a "home run" (avg 2 hr stay on MSUSA alone the first year) as they love the detail and the American look we exported. (http://www.dlrpmagic.com) The tons of images of details on Fan sites prove it. It would be my opinion that the intrinsic "too good" quality of that park has allowed it to weather the storm of few new attractions and some misfires pretty well. It's a rich space to be in, if only they could maintain it better.

The truth is that DLP had the lowest cost per guest carried of any park, meaning the operating cost of the ride against it's capacity was lower than other parks. It's a good value. But it's business demise has many fiscal and operational dimensions, but the most visible one you can blame is the amount of detail, so there you are. Of course it could have been less. Another truth is that I was not authorized to spend $5k over any pre approved line item without executive approval. My budget was like $150m. So to be blamed for runaway spending on that tight of a leash is a bit unfair. I guess I can be blamed for salesmanship or begging. So you get the reputation of being someone who can only do lavishly expensive projects (that are fiscally irresponsible) and in Tony's shadow, that is hard to shake (i.e. Francis Ford Coppola remark). There is more to this, but I think that makes the point. As a fan and designer, I'm very proud of it in spite of that, I think we did the right thing creatively and the guests agree. I feel we gave the European audience something that even amidst all the detail of Paris, they love for the right reasons. It's a bit of a reinvention of the theme as to exceed expectation. A tall order indeed and one the management seems to be getting with the redux of DCA. One reason I had for leaving was to reinvent myself as a creative force in new mediums, instead of being seen as a victorian pickpocket.


Forced labor? Once they made us work under protest on a ride for TDL that used the GM Test Track vehicle in a dual racing situation. Think Rocket Rods meets a slot car set. I just didn't think it was an E and we did everything to kill it. Rocket Rods did that for us. It was competing with the "Rocket Bike" attraction, a dual racing jet bike type thing that was cooler. I recall being forced to make a 10 foot wide walkway through DLP Town Square that ruined the facades. I hated that. Or living with the scale of that huge hotel in front.

Do something better? I have regrets on most everything. It all can be better and I've learned alot since then, so it's frustrating. It's the designer's curse. You know what they didn't let you do or you only see your errors. Most don't notice what you do, but in my experience the things I really hate some love the most! That's a thread in itself!

Ok...I may have voiced/programmed the TDL Tiki Room a bit differently. I wish I would have kept a closer eye on the details and finishes on the Fantasmic! viewing area at DL and the scale of the Jungle Cruise Boathouse. Overall they are fine, but it's just me. I have minor regrets on "Aladdin's Oasis" and how that was developed too, although it was really fun.
 

thehowiet

Wilson King of Prussia
Eddie, every time I think this thread couldn't possibly get any cooler, you post something that proves me wrong yet again. This thread alone is one of the things that got me to join this site. A million thanks for sharing your stories and ideas.

Three questions:
  • Ever consider writing a book? (probably asked already)
  • I know confidentiality agreements prohibit you from discussing specifics, but is there any chance that your company will end up getting any work for the Shanghai project?
  • Were there ever any talks or plans to get rid of the Tomorrowland Speedway at WDW while you were there? I know kids love it, but it sure does take up a lot of space, especially for an attraction that isn't all that unique.

As far as the castles go, I always found it odd that after the great looking castles they built for WDW, TDL, and DLP that they rebuilt a castle in Hong Kong that Walt himself wished was bigger. One of the many things that just wouldn't fit into the budget for HK I guess.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie, every time I think this thread couldn't possibly get any cooler, you post something that proves me wrong yet again. This thread alone is one of the things that got me to join this site. A million thanks for sharing your stories and ideas.

Three questions:
  • Ever consider writing a book? (probably asked already)
  • I know confidentiality agreements prohibit you from discussing specifics, but is there any chance that your company will end up getting any work for the Shanghai project?
  • Were there ever any talks or plans to get rid of the Tomorrowland Speedway at WDW while you were there? I know kids love it, but it sure does take up a lot of space, especially for an attraction that isn't all that unique.


As far as the castles go, I always found it odd that after the great looking castles they built for WDW, TDL, and DLP that they rebuilt a castle in Hong Kong that Walt himself wished was bigger. One of the many things that just wouldn't fit into the budget for HK I guess.

We are not currently doing anything for SHDL, (we have been booked solid now for the last 5 years), but would like to if it was the right fit. Never heard much on losing the Speedway, sorry.

I would like to write a book, but not sure on the exact tack it would take. I'd like to do it with another writer like an interview. To me, "experiential design" is a great topic and goes beyond the Disney work and involves all kinds of sensory manipulation. It might want to be like "Blink" or some of those "A-ha" business books. What would be interesting to you? Know any good writers?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
TDL has a "World Bazaar" instead of Main Street, so I'm sure they will find a way to sell stuff.
World Bazaar may not be named Main Street, USA, but a lot of the look is right there, with only the Center Street Coffeehouse being the real odd man out. Any idea on the why behind that facade?

Bathrooms are usually themed minimally as the guest has one thing on their mind, but they can always be better. There are a ton of codes of course that you pretty much have to slave to and ADA requirements as well. Making them cleanable long term makes the surfaces pretty "bulletproof" by design and to that end can be a bit limiting. They are designed for capacity as well. Victorian Restrooms can be pretty cool as the options in tile are vast and the look can be rich.

One of the more fun examples are the ones near Alice At DL with themed stall doors. Guests are free to "paint the roses red" in thematic privacy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3621/3498467192_80d43c3a30.jpg
The card images look like vinyl wraps, and that could be a means of doing more with different pieces. Even if they did not look as realistic as everything outside of the restrooms, such wraps could give partitions the look of a variety of materials.

At the Wizarding World of Harry Potter the exterior design is carried inside right up to the point where fixtures are located, then it jumps from dark stones to light, earthy toned tiles and a faux-wood paneling that is about 3'-0" tall and sits about 2'-0" above the floor. While the exterior views never indicate a change, it makes for a bit of an odd look inside. There is no clear threshold where one would anticipate a change to bathroom, it just happens right there after you have already entered the space. A nice attempt to carry on inside, but I think it ultimately hurts the intentions by going past a more logical point of breaking between the the exterior and interior.

An odd little detail I noticed today was that the top of the urinal flush housings at SeaWorld Orlando feature the Anheuser-Busch logo. I think it will be interesting to see how long this little touches (Were they there to remind you of what beverages should be bringing you there?) stay around as a reminder to the past.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Hey Eddie, I posted a thread on the Imagineer Forum about expanding and improving MK Link.

Do you know what the inside of Thunder Mountain looks like, and would there be room to have about a 10' wide path that could pass through?

Also, what is the makeup inside of the JC's Temple?
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Eddie,

On our show this week, Jim Hill told the story about how and why you were asked to change the original plans to Main Street in Disneyland Paris. Where did Eisner's backtracking back to the 1920's version rank among disheartening moments working for the company?
 

Condorman

Active Member
Welcome! All we need now is "Gus" and the "Cat from Outer Space"

Hey, throw in "Something Wicked This Way Comes" and you've got one killer, rainy Sunday afternoon of classic, unsung Disney flicks.

Let me just say this is the most mature, pleasant and learned thread this site has ever seen. I hope Mr. Sotto doesn't tire of us anytime soon. His insights into the histrionics of TWDC politics and his creative involvement during his tenure are truly informative and enjoyable reads.

Thank you, sir.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie,

On our show this week, Jim Hill told the story about how and why you were asked to change the original plans to Main Street in Disneyland Paris. Where did Eisner's backtracking back to the 1920's version rank among disheartening moments working for the company?

HUGE. (Actually it was backtracking TO 1890's MSUSA FROM the 1920's) I tell the story myself early in this thread. I was devastated, then angry, then betrayed, then really angry, then just depressed, but finally with squinted yellow eyes (like Old Yeller once he's diseased) moved on licking wounds. When I went on vacation (NEVER GO ON VACATION), knowing that Eisner was concerned about the 20's and that we should go back to the WDW formula, the agreement was that I would present my case in favor of it, but when I returned it was already decided as they caved and gave it all up and told him, "no problem we'll just do the WDW version." No one wanted me to go in there and fight for it with Eisner. I do get that BTW. Save budget and drama so sell out. What none of us realized at the time was that it put us a year behind the other lands so we had to move at a back breaking pace, skipping phases in drawings for YEARS to catch up and make opening. We were starting over with a year less time.

The answer you hear mostly from Eisner was that the move back to WDW design was budget driven (he was also spooked by our having a "Speakeasy" Club and that seemed less innocent) and to a degree it was, but I wanted the chance to keep the theme and dial it back to their number. The gangster element was going to be Keystone Cop style and not violent or anything like that. We could have lost the EL Train or the 360 degree Cinema show and still made it great. Yes, next to opening day of the Soap Box Racer ride at Knott's, I was most devastated and really bitter.

The interesting thing is that the deep bitterness was then channeled into an effort to resist the 1890's Main Street being literally copied from WDW as they thought it would. What could you still sneak in? We were literally the "French Resistance and it was "sabotage" time. Yes, we used most of the facades as mandated, but at this point I was determined to evolve the rest of the areas we were allowed to change into something super unique and relevant to Europeans. We are not going down. This resulted in the billboards, real car dealership, richer trains, and generally more layered and historically based experience. Tony knew were were doing that and liked that we were evolving it.

Imagine joining WED thinking you are designing Discoveryland fresh from scratch, and instead you end up with 5 years of replicating WDW MSUSA? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh! So... sometimes good things come from pain and being stifled. In that "every prisoner has the right to escape", and we "escaped" as much as possible by doing MSUSA the way we did. It's better for the exercise of developing the failed 20's first I guess.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie,

On our show this week, Jim Hill told the story about how and why you were asked to change the original plans to Main Street in Disneyland Paris. Where did Eisner's backtracking back to the 1920's version rank among disheartening moments working for the company?

Why not post the link so everyone can hear it?
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
300! Wow!

Who would have thought that this thread, borne of some other article would hit 300 pages and over 800k views! I certainly didn't. It's due to many of you core posters supporting it with great topics, questions, insights and keeping it out of the name calling routine. I think many come back here because they like the type of discussions we have here and the respect we show for other's views and WDI. But we still tactfully discuss the truth. More insider theme, and less trash! It can work online! Thank you all so much and to you "lurkers", come on in and join the discussion.

Thanks again for making the thread fun and interesting!

Eddie
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Who would have thought that this thread, borne of some other article would hit 300 pages and over 800k views! I certainly didn't. It's due to many of you core posters supporting it with great topics, questions, insights and keeping it out of the name calling routine. I think many come back here because they like the type of discussions we have here and the respect we show for other's views and WDI. But we still tactfully discuss the truth. More insider theme, and less trash! It can work online! Thank you all so much and to you "lurkers", come on in and join the discussion.

Thanks again for making the thread fun and interesting!

Eddie

Thanks Eddie for taking part, and as you say, thanks to everyone who has posted here for keeping things they way they should be.

Great thread :sohappy:
 

stephmtl

New Member
Ultimate lurkage

I am the very definition of a lurker - but this thread has been fascinating to watch and I've been nosing around since early days...

Thanks to all of you for the discussion so far.
 
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