Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
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Glad you raised your hand and spoke up!
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Collin Campbell
You may have heard of the passing of Collin Campbell, a talented Disney artist and 1st Generation Imagineer. Collin designed many of the background sets in Pirates at DL. He came from the studio as a background artist on 101 Dalmations among other productions.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...ceptual-artist-collin-campbell-1926-2011.aspx
I first met Collin at Gary Goddard's Company where he was quietly freelancing (as was Herb Ryman) then later at WED. Got to know him pretty well from going to the "Dinosaur lunch", an exclusive gathering of retired Disney Legends at a local watering hole. A "two drink minimum" on Thursdays. You'd try to sneak back into the office and make it through the rest of the day. Collin was a regular and Herb Ryman gifted me his seat at the table after he passed away. Campbell loved Paris and dreamed travelling Europe in a canal boat. The group loved to talk art and Europe. Once retired he got his Canal Boat and that was the last I saw of him. A soft spoken man with a great sense of humor and laugh, he did alot of good but seldom made the most noise. He once told me he designed the original POTC attraction poster, and when you look at the face of the Captain, it's him! It sits in my office today so I guess Collin is always there. We struggled together on a rendering for the 20's Main Street and we just could not get it right. He did the best he could with a design I had not fully developed. The art he did showed me the shortcomings of what we were trying to do. He was a great asset as he understood what was wrong with the design.
I used to hang out in his office and we'd chat about all kinds of things and he'd give me some pointers on art, which were always welcome. He did lots of great work on Pirates and you can find it in the original program book. We will miss you Collin! A Disney legend for sure.
You may have heard of the passing of Collin Campbell, a talented Disney artist and 1st Generation Imagineer. Collin designed many of the background sets in Pirates at DL. He came from the studio as a background artist on 101 Dalmations among other productions.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_c...ceptual-artist-collin-campbell-1926-2011.aspx
I first met Collin at Gary Goddard's Company where he was quietly freelancing (as was Herb Ryman) then later at WED. Got to know him pretty well from going to the "Dinosaur lunch", an exclusive gathering of retired Disney Legends at a local watering hole. A "two drink minimum" on Thursdays. You'd try to sneak back into the office and make it through the rest of the day. Collin was a regular and Herb Ryman gifted me his seat at the table after he passed away. Campbell loved Paris and dreamed travelling Europe in a canal boat. The group loved to talk art and Europe. Once retired he got his Canal Boat and that was the last I saw of him. A soft spoken man with a great sense of humor and laugh, he did alot of good but seldom made the most noise. He once told me he designed the original POTC attraction poster, and when you look at the face of the Captain, it's him! It sits in my office today so I guess Collin is always there. We struggled together on a rendering for the 20's Main Street and we just could not get it right. He did the best he could with a design I had not fully developed. The art he did showed me the shortcomings of what we were trying to do. He was a great asset as he understood what was wrong with the design.
I used to hang out in his office and we'd chat about all kinds of things and he'd give me some pointers on art, which were always welcome. He did lots of great work on Pirates and you can find it in the original program book. We will miss you Collin! A Disney legend for sure.
cupanudles
Active Member
Herb Ryman
Hello Mr. Soto, you've recently mentioned Herb Ryman and I see him now in your avatar. He is the largest influence on me as an artist and his work never fails to completely astound. I wanted to ask that you share some stories about this great Artist. Thank you! :wave:
Hello Mr. Soto, you've recently mentioned Herb Ryman and I see him now in your avatar. He is the largest influence on me as an artist and his work never fails to completely astound. I wanted to ask that you share some stories about this great Artist. Thank you! :wave:
FigmentJedi
Well-Known Member
I actually just put that page together when I heard he died a few days ago. He'll definitely be missed.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Well I think you more than succeeded in surpassing the Magic Kingdom. Its Main Street, USA looks and feels so plastic and fake, and the expansion of the general shopping has only further eroded any sense of reality. I went into Disneyland paris knowing that the facades were borrowed from the Magic Kingdom, but instead I was treated a much richer experience. The rest of my family tends to be rather big on shotgunning attraction after attraction and even they were more than happy to spend time just exploring Main Street, USA with the arcades being a particular highlight.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
He had quite an effect on me as well. There is a book out on him and his personal life which is rather dark. www.incanio.com
Herb was his own person, yet he admired Walt very much. I asked him why he did not become a fine artist in his own right, and he said that he enjoyed exposing his work as a part of Disney as it's seen by more people and had greater effect. Ryman loved Degas and John Singer Sargeant, taught the Epic production designer John De Cuir (my true hero!), and was also cynical toward some the talents at WDI which made for good humor. He told Walt that he would not take on meager assignments and to give those to others, or he'd leave. And he did from time to time which no doubt frustrated Walt. Herb resented the drama of WED in those old days when the only politics were kissing up to Walt, and then the power grabs afterward regardless of talent. This made him cynically outspoken. (He'd look at a weak rendering and say "you know..bad taste costs no more".) BUT HE WAS RIGHT! So relationships were strained with management, but he was loved by most all Imagineers. Ryman was a man who loved people, history and travel. He put his education and experience into his work so it had depth. He stressed research. The people in his work mean and are always doing something. So much of what I see in renderings today lacks this richness and depth. The architecture lacks the proportion and good draftsmanship that Ryman and others instinctively suggest. You can copy his icing, but no one bakes his cake like he does.
Herb was not a "wrist for hire" and operated poorly when treated that way.
Like an impressionist, he told me to be "Specifically vague" in my work and choose what to detail. To use color in unexpected ways and not be afraid of it. I love to study his work and still get so much from it. I love the fact that he hated some of his more revered pieces and he'd look at some huge painting he did and say "as you know...it's not very good" and shake his head. I love that guy!
You need to meet Herb and hear him speak, study his walk, see the twinkle in his eyes. Here's a video so you can see I the guy I was honored to have as a close friend. He tells the story of "giving people what they want" and he did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkcMueiE9tA
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Awesome, 20 years later the fact that it's holding up creatively is really encouraging, thanks!
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Ask and you shall receive. There are several good Eisner stories here including the one referenced earlier about the design of Paris' Main Street
WDW Fan Boys - Episode #070
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I listened to the episode myself and it was very entertaining. Jim Hill is a great storyteller. But as with all great stories, they begin to have their own patina over time. This includes mine. So I just thought for the record that I might clarify some of the errors or embellishments in Jim's account of my interactions with Michael Eisner on Main Street.
If you asked Michael today about why Main Street was changed from the 1920s theme to its original, he has in the past attributed the change mostly to budget. There was a memo he wrote to Marty Sklar and the team that as I recall expressed his concerns that the French would feel that we as Americans in our slightly more mature 20's Speakeasy Main Street would have "lost our innocence" and that we should go with the sugarcoated formula. He may have referenced several current movies as analogs to the grittier side of the 1920s. I know many people have said that he saw "The Untouchables" De Palma version over the weekend but I never heard him say that. Tony perpetuates that story.
Michael did say many months later when we were in construction "you were probably right Eddie, we should have done the 1920s, they would have loved it". That was almost more devastating, because had I been afforded the chance to make my case, there could have been hope. This was not said over a trashcan fire a night before the castle preview either. He said this on a family trip in a minivan while we were traveling across Europe. By the way, we never had trashcan fires or any fires in the streets while under construction. It was freezing. Where Jim may have "crossed the wires" here is that I did tell him a story about how project management sent most of the infield art direction crews home to save money. So I was up on a cherry picker installing plastic flowers into windowboxes with some laborers at three o'clock in the morning April 11th. Frank Wells, not Michael Eisner came down the street and could not believe that I was up there doing this myself and there was no crew there to support the finishing touches of the park the night before opening.
The 1920s decision was made and put us one year behind in our design and this was a backbreaker as I said before. We had to go back to the very beginning and renegotiate all of the retail and food locations with the operations people and start over. We threw out all other preliminary design. Here's what I do respect about Michael Eisner. He was really thinking big picture. He was looking at the Zeitgeist of his audience and was not afraid to make sweeping decisions if that was what he felt was the great creative approach. So, in retrospect I think he was showing good creative leadership although I feel that my own management should've given me the opportunity to present my case as it was ultimately the best direction and the right fit for the European audience. He eventually got it, but it was too late.
Anyway, the Podcast was a very fun listen!
RandySavage
Well-Known Member
Eddie, in continuing the discussion of 1920s MS.
When I imagine a 1920s Main Street of bootleggers, speakeasies, Studebakers, etc. in a Disney park, my mental image is that of an urbanized, brownstone & art deco setting:
However, most of the artwork from this version retains very strong connections to the earlier periods (such as Victorian) and generally still feels like the classic MSUSA:
From the artwork showcased on DisneyandMore, the concept looks to have been a more subtle, than radical, departure from the MSUSA paradigm. I think this is because in order to evoke NYC or Chicago, one needs to establish verticality - the defining aspect of these cities in the 1920s.
Were you ever considering, as part of this 1920s Main Street, building taller than the 2 or so stories (or adding forced perspective, step-backed "skyscrapers") in order to create the illusion of Big City USA? I think it would be somewhat of a challenge to evoke the French love & fascination for high-rise NYC (to which I can attest) in what is required to be a fairly low-rise environment.
When I imagine a 1920s Main Street of bootleggers, speakeasies, Studebakers, etc. in a Disney park, my mental image is that of an urbanized, brownstone & art deco setting:
However, most of the artwork from this version retains very strong connections to the earlier periods (such as Victorian) and generally still feels like the classic MSUSA:
From the artwork showcased on DisneyandMore, the concept looks to have been a more subtle, than radical, departure from the MSUSA paradigm. I think this is because in order to evoke NYC or Chicago, one needs to establish verticality - the defining aspect of these cities in the 1920s.
Were you ever considering, as part of this 1920s Main Street, building taller than the 2 or so stories (or adding forced perspective, step-backed "skyscrapers") in order to create the illusion of Big City USA? I think it would be somewhat of a challenge to evoke the French love & fascination for high-rise NYC (to which I can attest) in what is required to be a fairly low-rise environment.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Eddie, in continuing the discussion of 1920s MS.
When I imagine a 1920s Main Street of bootleggers, speakeasies, Studebakers, etc. in a Disney park, my mental image is that of an urbanized, brownstone & art deco setting:
However, most of the artwork from this version retains very strong connections to the earlier periods (such as Victorian) and generally still feels like the classic MSUSA:
From the artwork showcased on DisneyandMore, the concept looks to have been a more subtle, than radical, departure from the MSUSA paradigm. I think this is because in order to evoke NYC or Chicago, one needs to establish verticality - the defining aspect of these cities in the 1920s.
Were you ever considering, as part of this 1920s Main Street, building taller than the 2 or so stories (or adding forced perspective, step-backed "skyscrapers") in order to create the illusion of Big City USA? I think it would be somewhat of a challenge to evoke the French love & fascination for high-rise NYC (to which I can attest) in what is required to be a fairly low-rise environment.
I would say you're very perceptive. You have unearthed one of the fundamental issues that we were wrestling with early on.
To me, the goal was to bring the fun and excitement of the American Jazz age. We did have an El Train so it's not small town, you are right. I didn't really think we could get away with big skyscrapers but we did have forced perspective that allowed a building to achieve the third story or perhaps a distant skyline. The "Main Street Motors" corner of the Disneyland Paris Main Street is truly a page right out of the 1920's concept. We did sneak that one in.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3313/3330425051_44893c0b02.jpg
The single story building that steps back to billboards and a third story is inspired by a street corner composition I saw in Greenwich Village, New York. Here it is..
http://www.nychristmasgifts.com/ima...illage-Cigars-Greenwich-Village-MP1036-lg.jpg
Truth be told, there are many hoods of New York and Chicago that are about three stories and are not monolithic. Think Kansas City with it's Jazz heritage. Herb Ryman's artwork and overlay to some of the Victorian façades of Walt Disney World I think most closely capture the direction I was trying to achieve.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/loaloauk/DLP%20that%20never%20was/herbryman.jpg
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/...at never was/nighthawksdiner.jpg?t=1269550189
The southeastern block of Main Street was to have more art deco style buildings, but still a lighter touch. The idea here is to not create a pessimistic or cold environment but rather to rekindle the optimism and energy of the 20s before the crash. To give you an example, I kind of thought of Main Street as more like the Culver City streets that were frequented by Laurel and Hardy. Still Jazz age, early radio, Model T. Ford, yet warm and innocent and about 2 to 3 stories. I had a book that had all the facades of downtown CC as a reference.
http://hiddenlosangeles.com/hood-laurel-hardys-culver-city/ is
This take of the 20's was to strip back some of the gingerbread and not make it feel so urban. We weren't doing Gangsters so much as we were doing Keystone Cops. Hal Roach instead of Al Capone. Now you understand why I really wanted to develop the concept far enough to illustrate the overlay and that particular rendering that was posted does not convey that. But we never got that chance. The two worlds were really not living well together just yet. I probably would have eliminated the Emporium porch and other incongruous flourishes. Not to say that Main Street wouldn't have tons of detail, but the continuity of the detail we did have would be far tighter and make more visual sense. Actually, Disneyland's Main Street would have been an easier overlay in Walt Disney World's because it's less fanciful.
To a European Audience, hearing the jazz, seeing the limousines and cars and all of those exciting graphics would be something interesting. Certainly it would be perceived as more American than a quaint village based on architectural details they invented. The way out of all of this is to create a wondrous experience that is so rich, colorful and intrinsically childlike that no matter who you are you are transported into this nonthreatening but innocent place. Maybe Main Street is the America they wished existed.
BTW. Over on Micechat, the Pirate portrait paintings in the queue were added in the Nineties by the DL Show quality group based on Marc Davis sketches, later Sparrow and Barbarossa were added.
RandySavage
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Eddie, for an insightful and detailed response (as always). Maybe the concept will see fruition when the inevitable Mumbai Disneyland goes into development in a decade or two...
redshoesrock
Active Member
Actually with the way the United Arab Emirates have fumbled the ball with the Dubailand project, I would lay a dollar down for a Disneyland-style park in Dubai. Close proximity to a large population, a tourist economy, and a place in that part of the world that is Western-friendly.
HMF
Well-Known Member
I thought they were original with the exception of Sparrow and Barbossa. Shows there are still historical things I don't know. What thread is this in reference to?
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
flavious27
Well-Known Member
Dubai is broke, they needed to get bailed out to not default on their loans.
HBG2
Member
For the moment. A Disney park is a very long term investment. They'd be insane to build one anywhere in that part of the world.
rsoxguy
Well-Known Member
Eddie (can I call you Eddie, or should we keep things on a Mr. Sotto and Mr. rsoxguy level?)
I don't know if this has been asked before, but at a few hundred pages, my ability to search this thread is limited. Much time has been devoted on this forum to discussions regarding park update and upkeep. From a former imagineer's perspective, which park at WDW would you enjoy working with the most? Which do you believe would benefit the most from a new splash of creativity? (Budgets allowing, of course.)
I don't know if this has been asked before, but at a few hundred pages, my ability to search this thread is limited. Much time has been devoted on this forum to discussions regarding park update and upkeep. From a former imagineer's perspective, which park at WDW would you enjoy working with the most? Which do you believe would benefit the most from a new splash of creativity? (Budgets allowing, of course.)
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
It's a shame that Buena Vista Street is so boxed in by the existing infrastructure, as a lot of the speakeasy and gangster elements could still work in a Los Angeles and Hollywood setting.
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